Foreign Investor - How I turned $500K into $2M

Foreign Investor - How I turned $500K into $2M

Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes

Just thought I would provide an account of my journey since I started investing in US property market in 2011 and more recently Detroit. Perhaps this can provide some inspiration/feedback for any wannabe foreign investors, it can be done. If you can invest from overseas, you most certainly can do it from outer of state too. 

I had plenty of people, family and friends give me at least 5 good reasons why I should not invest in the US market. But fortunately I ignored this and just continued doing my homework, flying over regularly to US and sorting out the best way to move forward to make it work for me.

At this time the US property market was a basket case, and I could see with the right systems in place I could buy cheap properties that would be cash flowing from day 1. I also thought how low could prices go, some States hit 70% drops, pretty scary stuff.

I started investing in Atlanta in 2011, when the market started rising, and pumped about $500,000 cash buying SFH at around $35,000-50,000 price range (each), these were 2500 sq ft homes, in South Atlanta, in the main distressed properties/foreclosures.

 At this time financing was not an option for foreigners so all my properties were cash buys, however this has changed significantly. Today there are more financial options for foreigners. 

As we know many markets have rebounded from when the market peaked/crashed in 2007? and Atlanta is no exception, these properties today are worth at least $200,000+ each. 

So it really was not that hard, the rising market  turned my $500,000 into over $2,000,000 USD

These homes today rent for approximately $1400-1500 per month. Rents have slowly risen in the last couple of years in Atlanta. But when I was buying rents were pretty much stagnant.

My Atlanta properties today generate an income of approximately $10,000 per month (net)

Fast forward today...........am playing in the Detroit market, seems to be many opportunities, whether I can repeat what I did in Atlanta.... only time will tell, fingers crossed:)

I have been purchasing a mix of C and B grade SFH using cash for now, on average generating around 15% net returns. I have a couple of properties that I will be flipping next year as some markets are appreciating nicely and I would like to bring capital back to the table, rinse and repeat. The idea is to have some cheaper properties that are cash flowing and some purely for flipping.

I have a lot to learn about this market, and it certainly is different from the Atlanta market. 

Its been 12 months to date and  I have now bedded 10 properties where I have sourced good property management, not the easiest thing to do, I believe for a foreigner/out of state investor if you get this right you are 80% there. 

There are certain areas that I am targeting that are safe areas and have a mix of home owners/renters. 

My idea at the moment is to continue increasing my cashflow which is now at around -

$15,000 per month

I am not foolish enough to believe its going to be all smooth sailing, hardly.... Detroit is a beast and I have had some unpleasant experiences, but persistence is something I can do.  

 I plan to revisit this thread in 12 months time and give you an update on my journey

Happy investing everyone

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y

timing is everything.. and you timed it perfectly . you made your equity on Appreciation.. BP most folks think its gambling etc etc. .when in fact appreciation is what makes most investors wealthy.. either by organic or forced..

I would not expect the same results in Detroit though..   PS there are lenders for your situation.. I have done well over 200 buy hold loans for Aussies..  rates are higher but in your case in Atl you would have been able to double what you bought with the same cash and well now you would have 4 mil in property instead of 2 mil.. by simply pay a little over market rates for debt.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y

    Congrats!

    Going forward is when the real test starts. But it sounds like you timed multiple markets well before.

    The last 8-10 years had difficulties but we all had the market at our backs. Flips were easy because arvs just kept going up. You could buy a condo in NYC/SF for $500k in 2010 in cash and it would be worth $1.1-$2m right now without you doing a single thing. If you were a liquid investor who could get some financing and bought a commercial property you could 5-8x your money in that same time. 

    I don’t try to time a market and just invest in long term besides short term flips and a few aggressive basis developments. But the down cycle is when the fun begins and the real successful guys make and/or lose a ton. Just making sure I’m somewhat liquid for a downturn. 

  • El Paso , TX · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 25 votes
    7y

    Awesome story! I cant wait for the updates. @Marisa R. Who do you use to manage your properties in Detroit? 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Travis Biziorek:
    Originally posted by @Darius Kellar:

    @Travis Biziorek 

    Travis Clearly doesn't read his own articles he references to others. All you do is type before you even read and collect reasonable thoughts.  SInce I've read that link many of times.  3/4 down the link you posted. It clearly states ...

    • "Since 2014, Detroit has taken down 18,093 vacant buildings in neighborhoods across the city. If we keep this pace, we can remove 40,000 blighted structures in about eight years, instead of the 30 years it would have taken us at our previous rate."

    If you do the math boy, there is roughly 22,000 structures that still needs to be removed if your referring to your link. 

    SOMEONE NEEDS TO CHECK YOUR CREDIBILITY ROOKIE.

    Darius, you clearly have a short attention span since you can't even explore the link I dropped. There is tons of information on that page, including the number of homes (and exact address) that are scheduled for demolition. Then there's this quote from this link:

    "Since 2014, the City has demolished nearly 18,000 blighted structures, and the Detroit Land Bank has sold 6,000 vacant houses to be rehabbed and occupied. But there are still 18,000 abandoned houses in Detroit that we need to demolish in the next five years, without federal funds. At his May 2019 Mackinac Policy Conference address, Mayor Mike Duggan laid out this vision: Detroit will be free of residential blight by the end of 2024."

    My good deed for the day: teaching a fool how to use the Internet.

    there are surplus vacant homes in virtually every rust belt city. Like Indy has about 5k of them  1000 of them sold by Morris :) Invest. 

    this is why real estate is so regional.. in our areas on the west coast an extreme hoarder house is the only target for demo .. 

    and then the lots underneath them instead of have negative value like many of these rust belt cities are worth anywhere from 100k to 500k just for the dirt..  In Portland since the 08 melt down we are short  SHORT 20k housing units  LOL  

  • Sam AlbertPro Member
    Realtor · Providence, RI · Member since 2016 · 98 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Marisa R. Who are you using for Property Managers in Detroit? Could you PM me?

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:

    Awesome success in ATL though!

     Atl and Detroit 

    Yeah, ATL is awesome. Wouldn’t touch DET with 100 mile pole.

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:

    Congrats!

    Going forward is when the real test starts. But it sounds like you timed multiple markets well before.

    The last 8-10 years had difficulties but we all had the market at our backs. Flips were easy because arvs just kept going up. You could buy a condo in NYC/SF for $500k in 2010 in cash and it would be worth $1.1-$2m right now without you doing a single thing. If you were a liquid investor who could get some financing and bought a commercial property you could 5-8x your money in that same time. 

    I don’t try to time a market and just invest in long term besides short term flips and a few aggressive basis developments. But the down cycle is when the fun begins and the real successful guys make and/or lose a ton. Just making sure I’m somewhat liquid for a downturn. 

    Prices never dipped in NYC like that to give you 100%+ returns. Consider it a success if you made 20%-30% gains over the last 10 yrs in NYC.

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

     Aren’t those margins a little tight? 

    I’m negotiating contracts on a 14 townhouse development right now in NJ. Net profit is around 45% on total cost. About a 2.5x equity multiple. 

    Most sfh developers here in NY/NJ that I know try to make 25-30% at least. Too many things go wrong up here lol. Gotta have that margin. 

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 35 posts · 21 votes
    7y

    @Marisa R., I am a newbie and just wanted to thank you for sharing your experiences, definitely something to look up to. Going through your story I can only imagine the valuable experience you picked up investing from out of country. I am looking to invest out of state as my home area is too expensive and am trying to educate myself and overcome the fear of taking the plunge of out of state investing as a lot of people usually say it is too risky. Do you mind sharing your biggest stumbling blocks/problems to investing specifically in the Detroit market. Congrats once again and best of luck.

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:

    Congrats!

    Going forward is when the real test starts. But it sounds like you timed multiple markets well before.

    The last 8-10 years had difficulties but we all had the market at our backs. Flips were easy because arvs just kept going up. You could buy a condo in NYC/SF for $500k in 2010 in cash and it would be worth $1.1-$2m right now without you doing a single thing. If you were a liquid investor who could get some financing and bought a commercial property you could 5-8x your money in that same time. 

    I don’t try to time a market and just invest in long term besides short term flips and a few aggressive basis developments. But the down cycle is when the fun begins and the real successful guys make and/or lose a ton. Just making sure I’m somewhat liquid for a downturn. 

    Prices never dipped in NYC like that to give you 100%+ returns. Consider it a success if you made 20%-30% gains over the last 10 yrs in NYC.

    Do you live here? Do you invest here? 

    I've lived here my whole life and worked in the CRE industry. I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air. Those are from actual deals.

    2009-2011 prices did go down a lot in NYC.  New construction condos sat on the market. Certain buildings turned to rentals temporarily. Liquidity had dried up so very few people were getting loan to buy these buildings.

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Jim Chuong:

    @Marisa R.congrats! Amazing story! I resonated with this because as a Canadian, this is exactly what I did in Phoenix! Buying detached houses for $50k and 2/2 condos for $30k! More power to you!

    Great.  Good on you

    we got the timing right

    Now we just find the next market that is rising

    What do they say.....

    Fortune favors the bold

    Believe Canada market has softened???? Is this correct

    the issue you have with so many US investors is they are feed this appreciation is gambling cash flow day one is the right way to do it.. when in fact its one way.. but not necessarily the best way . just look at all the arguments 5 years ago with SF BAy area investors and every one else.. well the SF investors killed it with appreciation .. were as cash flow is cash flow if the values never rise you need to have some scale.. other wise its just a slow way to build equity over time IE your tenants pay your house off.. the big wealth builders are forced appreciation or organice appreciation. you get of course by major remodel refurb.. and or getting ahead of the market.. researching were trends are going IE the move back into the urban core hip cool neighborhoods.. you take some risk sure.. and in the beginning there is not much or any cash flow but then when houses start selling to owner occ the game is on.. if SFR homes really never sell to owner occ they will just trundle along and the value will only be what another investor will pay for a given rental rate.. pop it into the BP calculator and that spits out the value.. which stays stagnet unless rents rise a ton.. which in many markets that simply does not happen rents stay pretty stable.. so for the blue collar type rental areas or towns.. that's the stability.. not much up but not much down so you need Doors.. and then to get doors U need ton of debt generally.. and that alone takes on risk of some sort.

    Those who only talk about cashflow are the ones who buy lower Class/cost properties <$60k, that’ll take one generation (30 yrs) to throw off type of meaningful appreciation.

    My last close on a turn-key Class A in a hot market was 12/12/18. Today, a model match just went up for 27.8% more. That’s in 7 months.

    Would have to hold one of those middle of nowhere cashflow shacks for ~8 years and pray for no vacancies (and there always are) or big repairs to get those gains. 

    In 7 months I refi’d down over 1%, (cash-flowing $350/month), and my total vacancy time from purchase to tenant move-in = 4 whopping days. The property is 2,400 miles away from where I live.

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:

    Congrats!

    Going forward is when the real test starts. But it sounds like you timed multiple markets well before.

    The last 8-10 years had difficulties but we all had the market at our backs. Flips were easy because arvs just kept going up. You could buy a condo in NYC/SF for $500k in 2010 in cash and it would be worth $1.1-$2m right now without you doing a single thing. If you were a liquid investor who could get some financing and bought a commercial property you could 5-8x your money in that same time. 

    I don’t try to time a market and just invest in long term besides short term flips and a few aggressive basis developments. But the down cycle is when the fun begins and the real successful guys make and/or lose a ton. Just making sure I’m somewhat liquid for a downturn. 

    Prices never dipped in NYC like that to give you 100%+ returns. Consider it a success if you made 20%-30% gains over the last 10 yrs in NYC.

    Do you live here? Do you invest here? 

    I've lived here my whole life and worked in the CRE industry. I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air. Those are from actual deals.

    2009-2011 prices did go down a lot in NYC.  New construction condos sat on the market. Certain buildings turned to rentals temporarily. Liquidity had dried up so very few people were getting loan to buy these buildings.

    Sure, I could be dead wrong. Please share $500k condos in 2009-2011 that went 4x and now sell for $2m, 8 8-10 yrs later. Thanks

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:

    Congrats!

    Going forward is when the real test starts. But it sounds like you timed multiple markets well before.

    The last 8-10 years had difficulties but we all had the market at our backs. Flips were easy because arvs just kept going up. You could buy a condo in NYC/SF for $500k in 2010 in cash and it would be worth $1.1-$2m right now without you doing a single thing. If you were a liquid investor who could get some financing and bought a commercial property you could 5-8x your money in that same time. 

    I don’t try to time a market and just invest in long term besides short term flips and a few aggressive basis developments. But the down cycle is when the fun begins and the real successful guys make and/or lose a ton. Just making sure I’m somewhat liquid for a downturn. 

    Prices never dipped in NYC like that to give you 100%+ returns. Consider it a success if you made 20%-30% gains over the last 10 yrs in NYC.

    Do you live here? Do you invest here? 

    I've lived here my whole life and worked in the CRE industry. I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air. Those are from actual deals.

    2009-2011 prices did go down a lot in NYC.  New construction condos sat on the market. Certain buildings turned to rentals temporarily. Liquidity had dried up so very few people were getting loan to buy these buildings.

    Sure, I could be dead wrong. Please share $500k condos in 2009-2011 that went 4x and now sell for $2m, 8 8-10 yrs later. Thanks

     Look at all the condos on LIC and Williamsburg waterfront. They sold around $450-$650k. Now sell for $1.1-2m.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

     Aren’t those margins a little tight? 

    I’m negotiating contracts on a 14 townhouse development right now in NJ. Net profit is around 45% on total cost. About a 2.5x equity multiple. 

    Most sfh developers here in NY/NJ that I know try to make 25-30% at least. Too many things go wrong up here lol. Gotta have that margin. 

    out our way to much competition for the dirt only way you would make 45% profit on gross sales price is if you basically stole the land or got it for free.  I wish we could make 25 to 30 % routinely but when I am competing with Lennar and Dr Horton for dirt.. you simply don't see that..  

    So lets say we sell a new spec for 500k  NO way are we making almost half in net profit.. 

    500k house is about 2200 sq ft  build cost  120 a foot or 280k that would only leave 40k for a shovel ready lot.. and shovel ready lots are 100 to 140k in our market for 500k exits Also you have cost of capital you have tax's utls insurance and marketing costs ( real estate commissions) ..  So like I said you would have to get the dirt for free or next to free to make that kind of margin.. based on market exit prices.

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Syed H.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

     Aren’t those margins a little tight? 

    I’m negotiating contracts on a 14 townhouse development right now in NJ. Net profit is around 45% on total cost. About a 2.5x equity multiple. 

    Most sfh developers here in NY/NJ that I know try to make 25-30% at least. Too many things go wrong up here lol. Gotta have that margin. 

    out our way to much competition for the dirt only way you would make 45% profit on gross sales price is if you basically stole the land or got it for free.  I wish we could make 25 to 30 % routinely but when I am competing with Lennar and Dr Horton for dirt.. you simply don't see that..  

    So lets say we sell a new spec for 500k  NO way are we making almost half in net profit.. 

    500k house is about 2200 sq ft  build cost  120 a foot or 280k that would only leave 40k for a shovel ready lot.. and shovel ready lots are 100 to 140k in our market for 500k exits Also you have cost of capital you have tax's utls insurance and marketing costs ( real estate commissions) ..  So like I said you would have to get the dirt for free or next to free to make that kind of margin.. based on market exit prices.

     Ahh makes sense. Also you guys are doing much more volume than I am. I do one off projects for ground up when I find a below market deal for the land. & I bet our new construction timeline is a lot longer as well. 

  • Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

     On that project in Perth made 25% net return. By the way these villas are now only worth about $450k each, timing is everything.... sold the lot.... 

    I also was developing in Melbourne market where I was making 40%. I would fly over regularly and had a project manager managing my projects

    Another strategy I use is putting together DA, design and drawing and on selling to BC/builders. 

    This is a low risk strategy, good land with right zoning. 

    Here are some numbers from 2016 project, I purchased a house in Melbourne for $420k and got designs for 3 townhomes cost $20k, just employed architect and onsold in 12 months for $850k to a builder/contractor

    The trick with this one is the builder/contractor must have 20% net profit and the designs must be very good and what the market dictates otherwise it wont sell

     Australian property market in general is now in decline. We have gone from decades of roaring economy, but now its softening. I don't think we will see a crash but perhaps 10-20% falls dependent on State/location. Also currently have a credit squeeze hard to source finance

  • Rental Property Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2013 · 162 posts · 127 votes
    7y

    @Marisa R. Beautiful story!! Thanks you for sharing.

    Alex

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Mike G.:

    @Marisa R. how did you have the cash reserves to make all these purchases if I may ask?

     I mention in a previous post

    I was investing in property markets in Australia buying and selling  and basically rode a couple of boom cycle in 3 different States in Australia

    I started investing in US in 2011, but I also later got involved in small development projects

    Here is 3 villa development I completed sold in 2015. I have completed 5 in Australia. Two in Atlanta

    For those interested, as you can see we have we have totally different product in Oz, and generally much smaller sq ft is the norm

    https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-house-wa-spearwood-119276119

    Marrisa not to get off topic but i am curious.. what kind of NET margins do U make in Perth on new builds like this.. IN our markets we aim for 15% net profit.. so a 500k new build about 75k in NET profit minus office expenses .. many times its 8 to 10 and occasionally we hit 20% or better but thats not common.. I sold one in Charleston this year and hit 30% on a 2.2 mil retail sales price which is my record on a SFR new build.. but in our subdivision type projects like this one you posted as i said 10 to 15% 50 to 75k per house. last year we build 34 of these like you built.. and thats about where are numbers came out..

    IN todays market in Perth could you duplicate what you did in 2015 ?

    Also I have heard with the mining boom in WA is in decline did this cause any devaluation of sales prices in Perth. And for US folks reading Sydney and and EA and WA is a 5 to 6 hour flight apart just like CA  is that far from GA.. 

     On that project in Perth made 25% net return. By the way these villas are now only worth about $450k each, timing is everything.... sold the lot.... 

    I also was developing in Melbourne market where I was making 40%. I would fly over regularly and had a project manager managing my projects

    Another strategy I use is putting together DA, design and drawing and on selling to BC/builders. 

    This is a low risk strategy, good land with right zoning. 

    Here are some numbers from 2016 project, I purchased a house in Melbourne for $420k and got designs for 3 townhomes cost $20k, just employed architect and onsold in 12 months for $850k to a builder/contractor

    The trick with this one is the builder/contractor must have 20% net profit and the designs must be very good and what the market dictates otherwise it wont sell

     Australian property market in general is now in decline. We have gone from decades of roaring economy, but now its softening. I don't think we will see a crash but perhaps 10-20% falls dependent on State/location. Also currently have a credit squeeze hard to source finance

    those are strong numbers... flipping approved projects is a nice niche.. we are able to do that without closing ( settlement) and doing a double close ..  so in essence I will spend 50 to 80k getting a project approved then flip it to one of the bigger builders and sometimes we might make 300 to 400k on the flip so nice margin with limited risk.. but I have done them and no one would buy them and I eat the 80k..  LOL  but those deals are tough to find and not something that you can count on. 

    I tell you the big play in the states, and I could not get investors to bite to save my life.. but in Atl back in 2011 and 2012 when I was buying the houses.. I could have bought subdivision after subdivision of finished lots for 1 to 3k each.. investors would rebut Ya but it does not cash flow you know you hear that all the time cash flow is everything appreciation is gambling LOL ..  I ended up buying 15 1/2 acre lots for 3k each and sold them 3 years later for 35k each.. no tenants just make money.. people get  to focused on 200 to 300 a month cash flow and think making big gains is gambling.. it maybe if you don't know what your doing. but for those in the know..  cash flow if you can majorly scale is all well and good.. but money is made in big chunks on big up movements in the market..  I mean I could have made 10 to 20 million if I had more cash ( which I did not coming out of the 08 melt down).. but I had no problem raising capital to buy the 54 houses I bought there. and we did good we doubled our money in Atlanta in 2 to 3 years.. but nothing like the 10 to 30X we could have made on bare land and pipe farms.. IE finsihed subdivisions that were banked owned.  the builiders that scooped those up are just flat killing it today.. I mean killing it

  • Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Rosa:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Anthony Rosa:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    timing is everything.. and you timed it perfectly . you made your equity on Appreciation.. BP most folks think its gambling etc etc. .when in fact appreciation is what makes most investors wealthy.. either by organic or forced..

    I would not expect the same results in Detroit though..   PS there are lenders for your situation.. I have done well over 200 buy hold loans for Aussies..  rates are higher but in your case in Atl you would have been able to double what you bought with the same cash and well now you would have 4 mil in property instead of 2 mil.. by simply pay a little over market rates for debt.

     100% agree with you that appreciation is how one increases their wealth. It's that big lump sum in a relatively short perion that takes you from one bracket to the next.  Just  look at Harlem NYC as an example. People that bought at the right time went from middle class to being worth millions in liquid. 

     ..... and question is how do you know when a market is appreciating?  Why do so many investors not buy in riding markets??

     They don't buy because it's expensive to buy in an appreciating market.  Timing is everything but it's also a gamble. Example: Right now it's expensive to buy in a gentrified area because the  sweet appreciation boat already sailed. If you did buy pre gentrification you timed it right but it was also risky. You could make it or break it.

    I hear this a lot, "timing the market is risky", not if you actually jump in when the market is rising and see volume shrinking, boom/bust cycles are all about demand vs volume..... That's just my observation

  • Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Lassy G.:

    Great and awesome. Your story is very inspiring. I am an investor from Amsterdam (Europe). It has been very hard in real estate in the last couple of years. In Amsterdam, you can not buy a garage for 50 000 USD and the price of a 500 m² apartment is between 200 000 and 250 000 USD. Prices are still climbing. The market is very hot.

    A few months ago, I began investigating the US housing market, including Detroit. It's amazing how affordable it is. But my lack of knowledge of the local market sometimes holds me back as I read that things change from one street to another.

    How did you approach the Detroit market and what are your tips?

    Like everything, just researching 

    You may find this thread of interest

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/55/topics/619388-detroit-the-come-back-kid

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Marisa R.

    Thank you! I really needed to read something like this. God bless you.

  • Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Marisa R.:
    Originally posted by @Jim Chuong:

    @Marisa R.congrats! Amazing story! I resonated with this because as a Canadian, this is exactly what I did in Phoenix! Buying detached houses for $50k and 2/2 condos for $30k! More power to you!

    Great.  Good on you

    we got the timing right

    Now we just find the next market that is rising

    What do they say.....

    Fortune favors the bold

    Believe Canada market has softened???? Is this correct

    the issue you have with so many US investors is they are feed this appreciation is gambling cash flow day one is the right way to do it.. when in fact its one way.. but not necessarily the best way . just look at all the arguments 5 years ago with SF BAy area investors and every one else.. well the SF investors killed it with appreciation .. were as cash flow is cash flow if the values never rise you need to have some scale.. other wise its just a slow way to build equity over time IE your tenants pay your house off.. the big wealth builders are forced appreciation or organice appreciation. you get of course by major remodel refurb.. and or getting ahead of the market.. researching were trends are going IE the move back into the urban core hip cool neighborhoods.. you take some risk sure.. and in the beginning there is not much or any cash flow but then when houses start selling to owner occ the game is on.. if SFR homes really never sell to owner occ they will just trundle along and the value will only be what another investor will pay for a given rental rate.. pop it into the BP calculator and that spits out the value.. which stays stagnet unless rents rise a ton.. which in many markets that simply does not happen rents stay pretty stable.. so for the blue collar type rental areas or towns.. that's the stability.. not much up but not much down so you need Doors.. and then to get doors U need ton of debt generally.. and that alone takes on risk of some sort.

    Those who only talk about cashflow are the ones who buy lower Class/cost properties <$60k, that’ll take one generation (30 yrs) to throw off type of meaningful appreciation.

    My last close on a turn-key Class A in a hot market was 12/12/18. Today, a model match just went up for 27.8% more. That’s in 7 months.

    Would have to hold one of those middle of nowhere cashflow shacks for ~8 years and pray for no vacancies (and there always are) or big repairs to get those gains. 

    In 7 months I refi’d down over 1%, (cash-flowing $350/month), and my total vacancy time from purchase to tenant move-in = 4 whopping days. The property is 2,400 miles away from where I live.

     Frankly, I think you need both, its a catch 22. You need capital/appreciation to grow income streams

    I have learnt a valuable  lesson......not to get fanatical about one strategy as I could be cutting my nose despite my face. Just my opinion

  • John FortesPro Member
    Multi-Family Syndicator · Abington, MA · Member since 2017 · 603 posts · 347 votes
    7y

    Love this story. Its great that when you understand your investment you take the plunge and dive in. Most people understand real estate but still sit on the sidelines. Congrats and I'm looking forward to the update. Excited for you and what you have achieved. God bless!

  • Dale MillerPro Member
    Investor · Atwater, OH · Member since 2017 · 50 posts · 23 votes
    7y

    @Marisa R. Awesome story! And good luck moving forward!

  • Vancouver, British Columbia · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    @Alexander Knowles

    Hi Alexander

    I’m Canadian...I already own property in US (cash) but am wanting to do more...did you find a US bank who would finance you with 40% down?

    Cheryl

    Vancouver

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