Wholesaling - Is It About to Change?

Specialist · Greenville, NC · Member since 2019 · 673 posts · 408 votes

7y

@Jay Hinrichs, I would get a license but I prefer to not receive commissions, as we have to split them with other agents and brokers whom I’d work under. Wholesaling is simply my way of developing automated systems to find leads for properties that haven’t hit the market, so as to benefit flippers and create jobs.

The end game is cash flowing multi family residential. Wholesaling is a stepping stone. I’m also going to learn to rehab properties, as this is an even better way to acquire capital.

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3 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Scott Johnson:

@Jay Hinrichs, I don’t market properties. I market contracts.

I know but if it quakes like a duck and looks like a duck its a duck.. that no fly.. but hey if its OK in your market have at it.

this is a general discussion on what you see states starting to do.. we all know what it is..

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Account Closed

Financial Advisor · CA · Member since 2012 · 128 posts · 76 votes

7y

Sounds like they are modeling after car dealerships. That is to say if you do so many deals (depends on state) in a year you are considered a "dealer." Depends on how or whether your state "tracks" your transactions.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Scott Johnson:

@Jay Hinrichs, I would get a license but I prefer to not receive commissions, as we have to split them with other agents and brokers whom I’d work under. Wholesaling is simply my way of developing automated systems to find leads for properties that haven’t hit the market, so as to benefit flippers and create jobs.

The end game is cash flowing multi family residential. Wholesaling is a stepping stone. I’m also going to learn to rehab properties, as this is an even better way to acquire capital.

For sure a day does not go by that someone on BP says I want to get into wholesaling so I can raise capital so I can buy and hold so I can retire in 5 years LOL.. I know the motivation.. and the goal.. And well some do it some blow through 10 to 50k and never land a deal.

at least with brokerage if yo spend that amount of money on marketing for listings your going to make money no question.

And you do what I did I worked for a broker for the 2 years I needed to then become my own and have owned my own brokerages ever since.. so ya little time of apprenticing but then on my own.

My wife works for another firm even though she should could be her own broker but she likes the support. and in our market its a flat fee of 10k a year that's all it costs.. and she does anywhere between 10 to 15 million a year in sales.. so you can do the math even at lower % agents make its still significant revenue for her.. and the other thing with growing a broker business once you get in it for a certain amount of time say 5 to 10 years majority of your business comes from referrals my wife generates that kind of revenue and spends NOT ONE cent on marketing.. most wholesalers don't just open up and get repeat sellers coming to them by referral your constantly feeding the marketing beast..

Just like wholesaling is tough going starting out so is being an agent.

OK I got to crank up the Green egg I think we have beat this one about to death I wish you continued success..

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Chris Martin

Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

7y

@Scott Johnson NC != IL. We have it reasonably easy here in NC compared to states like IL, OH, and FL. We can just check the box on the standard Bar/NCREC Form 2-T to indicate "Seller represents that Seller:... does not yet own the Property." (See also MLSs allowing listings where seller doesn't own the property for an example of an "easy" to wholesale state like NC.)

But Illinois doesn't play games. Illinois has some strict penalties and you can verify that by browsing through the disciplinary reports published by the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation. A few examples... from $1,500,000 fine for a guy who took off with several thousand $ in earnest money, to $5,000 fine for not presenting an offer, to $250,000 fine for advertising other's listings w/o permission... I don't know all the details, but the numbers speak for themselves. Examples from IDFPR reports below:

Another

another...

So to answer the OP's question "Wholesaling - Is It About to Change?" I think the answer is "yes" in Illinois if the proposed bill is passed. IL serial flippers and "wholesalers" are going to have a harder time avoiding the one buy per year requirement, and I guess we will see how high the fines are if the bill passes and they are caught!

2 Reply

Jana Landreneau

Specialist · Lake Charles, LA · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 3 votes

7y

@Patrice Boenzi I understand your point of view, and the laws. However, What I don't fully understand is vacant or run-down houses can't be put on the MLS, not that I know of, or they just don't put them there. So why are most realtors against wholesalers? I know there are quite a few of them out there that don't take the owners feelings into consideration when trying to make a buck, nor do they abide by state laws. But what about those of us who are just trying to bring communities that have gone down, back up again by wholesaling homes that have been abandoned, normally those are sold to fix and flip investors that make the home livable again and turn around and sell to someone who needs a place to live. Wouldn't that HELP realtors sell more houses in those areas due to the market coming back up in the bad areas of towns?

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Irina Belkofer

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 719 posts · 658 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Jana Landreneau:

@Patrice Boenzi I understand your point of view, and the laws. However, What I don't fully understand is vacant or run-down houses can't be put on the MLS, not that I know of, or they just don't put them there. So why are most realtors against wholesalers? I know there are quite a few of them out there that don't take the owners feelings into consideration when trying to make a buck, nor do they abide by state laws. But what about those of us who are just trying to bring communities that have gone down, back up again by wholesaling homes that have been abandoned, normally those are sold to fix and flip investors that make the home livable again and turn around and sell to someone who needs a place to live. Wouldn't that HELP realtors sell more houses in those areas due to the market coming back up in the bad areas of towns?

Somehow, you have misinformation big time.

I work with investors and distressed properties all the time as a broker. Any house can be marketed on MLS once the owner agrees. Why wouldn't the owner agree to have much better marketing vs some wholesaler network?

Listings from MLS are automatically fed into Realtor.com, Zillow etc - the more potential buyers - the better service to the seller. The worst case scenario if agent listed a house below market: buyers will come up with multiple offers!

Real estate agents work in all areas: REOs, short sales, vacant houses, land - you name it.

I don’t see how all that marketing could be beat by “marketing contracts” on FB or CL.

I do understand that everyone has to make money but there are plenty of legitimate ways

1 Reply

Patrice Boenzi

OP

Real Estate Agent · Geneva, IL · Member since 2015 · 403 posts · 172 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Jana Landreneau:

@Patrice Boenzi I understand your point of view, and the laws. However, What I don't fully understand is vacant or run-down houses can't be put on the MLS, not that I know of, or they just don't put them there. So why are most realtors against wholesalers? I know there are quite a few of them out there that don't take the owners feelings into consideration when trying to make a buck, nor do they abide by state laws. But what about those of us who are just trying to bring communities that have gone down, back up again by wholesaling homes that have been abandoned, normally those are sold to fix and flip investors that make the home livable again and turn around and sell to someone who needs a place to live. Wouldn't that HELP realtors sell more houses in those areas due to the market coming back up in the bad areas of towns?

@Jana Landreneau vacant and run down homes can be put in the MLS has long as their is a listing agreement signed with the person/company that owns the property or has legal ability to represent the owner. As a Realtor, I have a fiduciary responsibility to get the highest price I can for a seller. It is for this reason I choose not to participate in any kind of wholesaling deal. I have many laws I need to follow and I just can't take the chance of blurring the lines. It is my choice. There are several proposed changes with the Act, but I found this one very interesting. As I said before, I know wholesalers and was just trying to get a snapshot of how everyone thought this change would affect things. I feel, from talking to many people, that the issue isn't about revitalizing a neighborhood, but helping someone get the most money out of their asset. I help families with distressed properties and, from my experience, I get them more money for their home, with commissions paid, than they were offered from an investor or wholesaler. I think the root issue is whether it's ethical and moral. I don't think we will answer that question here, but everyone has to decide for themselves.

1 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes

7y

Honestly I think the wholesalers themselves will be what winds up tightening the noose around their own necks.

Their marketing especially. My neighborhood has a facebook group, and every day people in that facebook group is talking about the spam SMS and calls they get. They already hate the WE BUY HOUSES signs that already infest the area, and are just getting even more annoyed that text messages and calls are interrupting their day. And we are getting A LOT of these calls.

And now, someone is selling wholesalers a system that makes your phone ring once then get a badly recorded voicemail with a wholesaler sales pitch. Wholesalers even call my own parents, mistaking their number for mine. (Public databases are often wrong like this)

Laypeople just see these tactics as those of scammers and shysters. They know the bandit signs, spam calls and spam texts are technically illegal, and what kind of legit business uses those? None.

Those angry people vote, they call their elected officials, they complain to the media. Plus, without double closing it really is practing agency without a license, so the NAR lobby will be happy to encourage the public officials to crack down on those hucksters trying to scam grandma out of her equity.

Personally, I dont at all mind the letters and postcards. I have local wholesalers send me letters with their real name, and that I support and respect. (But will never sell to you, haha)

The people using voiceblasting, SMS spam, voicemail drop spam, bandit signs and yellow postcards with the exact same lies that we got 300 times already are what is going to kill it for everyone.

4 Reply

Charles D Southwick

Specialist · Gooding, ID · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 5 votes

7y

@Patrice Boenzi the one thing I would like to pint out is that the definition of a “broker” is being amended to include the business model of “wholesaling”. My “Business Model” is to buy and hold with the need to assign a contract or 2 if I don’t like the numbers on my end.

The question of have, since I don't live in Illinois is, how hard is it to set up an LLC??

I know that a few people that are in some of the "easy setup" states, that are setting up multi member LLCs and then the "wholesaler" is being bought out of the LLC. Then it's already an entity the end buyer can use and there is only 1 closing.

1 Reply

Matt P.

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 625 posts · 601 votes

7y

@Scott Johnson If you don't see what's wrong with a senior citizen getting 100k of equity stolen from them then no amount of people explaining it to you online is going to help you SMH.

9 Reply

Jana Landreneau

Specialist · Lake Charles, LA · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 3 votes

7y

@Irina Belkofer thank you for clarifying. This is why I asked. I, myself, see what happens on fb and cl everyday.

I have morals and ethics, which is why I usually try to find owners of these houses that someone has abandoned. The houses that have trees growing all around them that no one can see from the road anymore. Vacant ones that maybe someone didn’t know they could get a little bit of money for. Instead of just letting it rot and getting nothing for it.

I have read the comments here and realize the frustration of those wholesalers that bug the living daylights out of people. I’m not that type of person.

Thank you for clarifying to me what I obviously didn’t understand about the mls.

1 Reply

Frank Previte

Member since 2015 · 2 posts · 2 votes

7y

Several thoughts from a Texas RE Agent (wife is the broker) who wholesales for his own account.

1. Do a search on Google for RE Group Meetups in your area. Meetup.com is one source. RE investing, wholesaling, rehabbing, etc. They will be able to get a knowledgeable real estate attorney to explain what the new law requires.

2. Wholesaling is an ambiguous term, somewhat like assault rifle. What we usually mean in Texas is that we have the property under contract (we control it) and want to sell by assignment our right to buy the property. The Texas Real Estate Commission (TREC) came out with guidelines which stated (the obvious) that you can't sell what you don't own. But, you can sell your right to buy the property to someone else. That is an assignment of contract. Wholesalers and investor buyers (rehabbers, etc.) understand the process, but the general public doesn't. You do not have to be a licensed agent in Texas to wholesale property if you have it under contract and follow the method I just described.) Others that are not licensed previously posted the property for sale. That's why (TREC) stepped in and clarified what you had to say if you were not licensed. For example, we can not post an online ad that 123 Happy Street, Houston, TX is for sale. We can post something that states that we are selling our right to purchase the property known as 123 Happy Street, Houston, TX. Again, consult an attorney for specific language.

3. I suspect it is illegal everywhere to perform acts that require a license if you are not licensed. You are not representing another party in anticipation of receiving a fee, you are assigning your right to purchase the property, so in Texas if you present it that way and provide full disclosure (as I have to disclose that I and my spouse are licensed RE Agent and Broker, respectively, and that I am acting for my own account and that I(we) do not represent the seller. )

4. Every prospective real estate investor needs access to a good real estate attorney. The meetup groups frequently have attorneys speak at their get-togethers. It provides future business for the attorneys.

2 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Patrice Boenzi:

The Real Estate License Act (RELA) of 2000 is about to sunset. Check out the changes they are making to the RELA regarding wholesaling. How do you think this will affect things?

Excerpt is taken from the article posted by Illinois Realtors

Title: SB 1872 or Real Estate License Act of 2000 - Explained (full link at bottom of post)

As you may already be aware, the Illinois Real Estate License Act of 2000 (RELA or the Act) was due to “sunset” at the end of 2019.

This is a regular “thing” for licensing laws, and knowing this was on the horizon Illinois REALTORS®set to work organizing a task force to study, consider and recommend changes for a rewrite of RELA.

Accordingly, the Illinois REALTORS® task forces were focused on consumer protection from the start. In addition, IDFPR has a mission of consumer protection together with establishing the standards for professional real estate licensees in Illinois.

With regard to business practices, in Section 1-10, the definition of “broker” has been amended to include the practice of “wholesaling” if done as a business model. Generally, “wholesaling” involves the practice of entering contracts to purchase property, then quickly assigning that contract to another buyer for a profit. When done as a business practice, “wholesaling” will now come under RELA’s enforcement provisions and the wholesaler will need a real estate broker’s license, as well as be subject to consumer protection provisions such as disclosure of self-interest and prohibition against dual agency.

Full Link: https://www.illinoisrealtors.org/blog/sb-1872-or-real-estate-license-act-of-2000-explained/?fbclid=IwAR34h8ys5z-ea3ks6ufLTwSPNNos-XAR1unslWPbcLlGQQ7tSnpCmxSw24M#consumer

Wholesaling as it's generally practiced today is simply brokering real estate illegally as a real estate license is required to broker real estate in the USA. Glad to see another state is pumping up the enforcement on this nonsense.

3 Reply

Luka Milicevic

Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Hopefully by now we have learned. Anything that Illinois does, we should do the complete opposite.

6 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Scott Johnson:

@Jay Hinrichs, I don’t market properties. I market contracts.

I know but if it quakes like a duck and looks like a duck its a duck.. that no fly.. but hey if its OK in your market have at it.

this is a general discussion on what you see states starting to do.. we all know what it is..

lol, that logic is similar to saying "I don't sell drugs.......I sell bags (that happen to be filled with drugs)"

7 Reply

Patrice Boenzi

OP

Real Estate Agent · Geneva, IL · Member since 2015 · 403 posts · 172 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Charles D Southwick:

@Patrice Boenzi the one thing I would like to pint out is that the definition of a “broker” is being amended to include the business model of “wholesaling”. My “Business Model” is to buy and hold with the need to assign a contract or 2 if I don’t like the numbers on my end.

The question of have, since I don't live in Illinois is, how hard is it to set up an LLC??

I know that a few people that are in some of the "easy setup" states, that are setting up multi member LLCs and then the "wholesaler" is being bought out of the LLC. Then it's already an entity the end buyer can use and there is only 1 closing.

@Charles D Southwick from my understanding even with an LLC, the property when purchased/sold has to be tied to a SS#. I cannot buy properties in my LLC name. I close and then move them into the LLC. Maybe someone else has a better more thorough answer, but I leave this stuff up to my attorney.

0 Reply

Cody Z.

Real Estate Agent · Belmar, NJ · Member since 2017 · 370 posts · 200 votes

7y

@Jay Hinrichs

Agreed that any business with a good marketing plan will do well as long as they can execute on the leads but then there is also the true barrier to entry ... time.

1 Reply

Wayne Woodson

Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2009 · 483 posts · 228 votes

7y

A double closing is not illegal.

-Wayne

1 Reply

John Thedford

Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Scott Johnson:

@Jay Hinrichs as long as the wholesaler keeps all parties best interests in mind and everyone’s happy after closing, there’s nothing wrong with a deal such as that.

Unlicensed brokers are NOT working in the best interests of the seller. That is just their propaganda to rationalize their actions.

4 Reply

Chris Martin

Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Patrice Boenzi:

The Real Estate License Act (RELA) of 2000 is about to sunset. Check out the changes they are making to the RELA regarding wholesaling. How do you think this will affect things?

Excerpt is taken from the article posted by Illinois Realtors

Title: SB 1872 or Real Estate License Act of 2000 - Explained (full link at bottom of post)

As you may already be aware, the Illinois Real Estate License Act of 2000 (RELA or the Act) was due to “sunset” at the end of 2019.

This is a regular “thing” for licensing laws, and knowing this was on the horizon Illinois REALTORS®set to work organizing a task force to study, consider and recommend changes for a rewrite of RELA.

Accordingly, the Illinois REALTORS® task forces were focused on consumer protection from the start. In addition, IDFPR has a mission of consumer protection together with establishing the standards for professional real estate licensees in Illinois.

With regard to business practices, in Section 1-10, the definition of “broker” has been amended to include the practice of “wholesaling” if done as a business model. Generally, “wholesaling” involves the practice of entering contracts to purchase property, then quickly assigning that contract to another buyer for a profit. When done as a business practice, “wholesaling” will now come under RELA’s enforcement provisions and the wholesaler will need a real estate broker’s license, as well as be subject to consumer protection provisions such as disclosure of self-interest and prohibition against dual agency.

Full Link: https://www.illinoisrealtors.org/blog/sb-1872-or-real-estate-license-act-of-2000-explained/?fbclid=IwAR34h8ys5z-ea3ks6ufLTwSPNNos-XAR1unslWPbcLlGQQ7tSnpCmxSw24M#consumer

Wholesaling as it's generally practiced today is simply brokering real estate illegally as a real estate license is required to broker real estate in the USA. Glad to see another state is pumping up the enforcement on this nonsense.

First of all, I agree with your general statement. However, two points. This bill, if enacted, reverses the "sunset" provision that is the basis for the comments from the Illinois Realtor folks.

Line 19 has a ~~strikethrough~~. Second, this new law (if enacted) will not allow people in Illinois to buy or sell their own property without a broker, except for one property per 12 month period. It doesn't matter, per the law, if it's my owner occupied residence or not. There are no exemptions in this part of the wording since "sold by an owner on his or her own behalf" is now "~~sold by an owner on his or her own behalf~~".

So, lots of activities will change. What if someone bought an off-market rental in the last 12 months and then buys from the courthouse for their own account? Do they need to retain a broker to represent the transaction? If not, will they get a cease and desist letter or a fine from the regulators? What if a person does a 1031 exchange with another person (off-market, which is not uncommon for 1031 exchange) and sell (themselves) and exchange (buy) by themselves? Technically, that's a violation too. A lot of flippers in my area already list (sell) via MLS so they won't be as impacted... except that many of these people look to "source" off-market property, which will count as their one-and-only "buy" in a 12 month period...

Are these unintended consequences? Or am I right in my prior post that "Sometimes poorly written and/or executed bills make it through state legislatures."

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Chris Martin:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Patrice Boenzi:

The Real Estate License Act (RELA) of 2000 is about to sunset. Check out the changes they are making to the RELA regarding wholesaling. How do you think this will affect things?

Excerpt is taken from the article posted by Illinois Realtors

Title: SB 1872 or Real Estate License Act of 2000 - Explained (full link at bottom of post)

As you may already be aware, the Illinois Real Estate License Act of 2000 (RELA or the Act) was due to “sunset” at the end of 2019.

This is a regular “thing” for licensing laws, and knowing this was on the horizon Illinois REALTORS®set to work organizing a task force to study, consider and recommend changes for a rewrite of RELA.

Accordingly, the Illinois REALTORS® task forces were focused on consumer protection from the start. In addition, IDFPR has a mission of consumer protection together with establishing the standards for professional real estate licensees in Illinois.

With regard to business practices, in Section 1-10, the definition of “broker” has been amended to include the practice of “wholesaling” if done as a business model. Generally, “wholesaling” involves the practice of entering contracts to purchase property, then quickly assigning that contract to another buyer for a profit. When done as a business practice, “wholesaling” will now come under RELA’s enforcement provisions and the wholesaler will need a real estate broker’s license, as well as be subject to consumer protection provisions such as disclosure of self-interest and prohibition against dual agency.

Full Link: https://www.illinoisrealtors.org/blog/sb-1872-or-real-estate-license-act-of-2000-explained/?fbclid=IwAR34h8ys5z-ea3ks6ufLTwSPNNos-XAR1unslWPbcLlGQQ7tSnpCmxSw24M#consumer

Wholesaling as it's generally practiced today is simply brokering real estate illegally as a real estate license is required to broker real estate in the USA. Glad to see another state is pumping up the enforcement on this nonsense.

First of all, I agree with your general statement. However, two points. This bill, if enacted, reverses the "sunset" provision that is the basis for the comments from the Illinois Realtor folks.

Line 19 has a ~~strikethrough~~. Second, this new law (if enacted) will not allow people in Illinois to buy or sell their own property without a broker, except for one property per 12 month period. It doesn't matter, per the law, if it's my owner occupied residence or not. There are no exemptions in this part of the wording since "sold by an owner on his or her own behalf" is now "~~sold by an owner on his or her own behalf~~".

So, lots of activities will change. What if someone bought an off-market rental in the last 12 months and then buys from the courthouse for their own account? Do they need to retain a broker to represent the transaction? If not, will they get a cease and desist letter or a fine from the regulators? What if a person does a 1031 exchange with another person (off-market, which is not uncommon for 1031 exchange) and sell (themselves) and exchange (buy) by themselves? Technically, that's a violation too. A lot of flippers in my area already list (sell) via MLS so they won't be as impacted... except that many of these people look to "source" off-market property, which will count as their one-and-only "buy" in a 12 month period...

Are these unintended consequences? Or am I right in my prior post that "Sometimes poorly written and/or executed bills make it through state legislatures."

Chris some years back I there was a thread about Wisconsin law.. and I believe it was proved that you need a broker or a license to sell a property . I had never heard of that before so may IL is just following its brother to the north ?

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Scott Schultz

Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes

7y

In IL they are waiting for the Gov to sign a bill that specifically names and describes Wholesaling and will make a Brokers License required, the fin is to be $25,000

1 Reply

Anthony Rosa

Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Jana Landreneau:

@Patrice Boenzi I understand your point of view, and the laws. However, What I don't fully understand is vacant or run-down houses can't be put on the MLS, not that I know of, or they just don't put them there. So why are most realtors against wholesalers? I know there are quite a few of them out there that don't take the owners feelings into consideration when trying to make a buck, nor do they abide by state laws. But what about those of us who are just trying to bring communities that have gone down, back up again by wholesaling homes that have been abandoned, normally those are sold to fix and flip investors that make the home livable again and turn around and sell to someone who needs a place to live. Wouldn't that HELP realtors sell more houses in those areas due to the market coming back up in the bad areas of towns?

@Jana Landreneau - For wholesalers its not about "bring communities that have gone down, back up again by wholesaling....". Lets be real, its about an opportunity to make money. The people interested in bringing communities back together are the buy and hold landlords, flippers, property owners, lifelong residents and business owners because they have a financial interest that's dependent on a good, stable and safe community.

2 Reply

Anthony Rosa

Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes

7y

@Jay Hinrichs - Are there states that do not allow For Sale by Owner?

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Wholesaling - Is It About to Change?

Wholesaling - Is It About to Change?

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