Buying a Rental with 24 Liens on Title

Buying a Rental with 24 Liens on Title

Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes

Hello, I am under contract to purchase a triplex in Kentucky. The Seller has declared Chapter 13 bankruptcy and the property has 24 liens on the title. Most of the liens were addressed in the bankruptcy filing and the court allowed the sale to go through. However, there are 5 liens on the property that belong to the Seller’s wife. She passed away in 2017. The amount of the liens is more than the appraised value of the property (it appraised for $106,000). The Seller is thinking about letting it go into foreclosure. I still want the property, because the numbers look good:

Purchase price: $105,000

Total rental income: $2,100

Cost to make rent-ready: $40,000.

Taxes are 1.5% of purchase price, insurance is about $120/month, utilities are separated.

C+ neighborhood, inspection came back good, no unexpected issues.

I am trying to get in touch with the lien holders to negotiate with them directly. If the property goes into foreclosure, they get nothing, correct? There’s an $80,000 mortgage on the property. Wife’s liens add up to $12,600, plus there are 19 more liens that were addressed in the bankruptcy filing. 

Has anyone ever dealt with something like this? What is your advice? I don’t mind coming up in price a little bit if it means getting the deal. 
Another option I’m considering is instead of getting a loan, pay the Seller a little bit of cash to move out and take the property without clear title. Is it too risky? Can the creditors foreclose on me?

My goal for this property is buy and hold for at least 30 years for cash flow.

Thank you so much for your advice!

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Investor · Columbus, GA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y

Ask a good closing attorney what their opinion is and if they can still provide title insurance for the property. It is worth paying for this service, so don't be cheap about it. If they tell you not to do it, don't do it at any price. 

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  • Investor · Columbus, GA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Ask a good closing attorney what their opinion is and if they can still provide title insurance for the property. It is worth paying for this service, so don't be cheap about it. If they tell you not to do it, don't do it at any price. 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    Liens are scary.....and they all differ. This would scare me and I don't scare easily......yes, get advice from an attorney, but even then you won't know for sure until you start attempting to remove the liens......

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y

    I'm confused by your post.  You wrote the owner filed Ch 13 Bk and the court allowed the sale to go through. What sale are you writing about?  As I understand it in a Ch 13 the debtor/bankrupt files a plan with the court which describes how the debtor will repay the creditors.  Does the plan include a sale of the property to you?  If not I suspect the first thing the debtor needs to do is file an amended plan that describes the terms of the proposed sale and notice is provided to the creditors to give then the opportunity to object.  If the court approves the sale and it goes through and assuming the plan did not include a provision that liens survive the sale, the conveyance should be free and clear.  Please talk with a good real estate attorney and confirm this information.  I suggest you also talk with a title company and confirm what they will require to insure your purchase w/o exception for the Bk and/or the liens.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    The title report needs to be reviewed to answer these questions. And there is more info required. Did the husband and wife hold title as tenants by the entirety? What are the "liens" relating to the wife... state or federal tax liens, or judgments? Did the husband and wife remain continuously married from before the liens/judgments until her death in 2017? And so on.

    Since only the husband is in BK, liens that validly attached to the property via the wife would not be affected by the current BK.

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  • Stephen KeigheryBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2018 · 716 posts · 555 votes
    4y

    I would be getting your advice from a competent title attorney and only close if they will offer you title insurance. I buy houses with liens and title issues all the time but I don't know how to solve the issues. I just lean on the title attorney and when they say something can't be fixed ask them if there are other options and keep them working it out.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    4y

    @Peter Walther

    Before I went under contract, my Realtor told me that the sale will need to be approved by the court. We got the approval two months later. My guess is that Ch 13 plan included the sale of the property. The liens on the title are judgement liens with collections companies represented by attorneys. The attorneys are not responding to our requests to negotiate the amounts.

  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    4y

    @Tom Gimer

    I'm not sure how the title of the property was held prior to her passing. The liens relating to the wife are judgement liens with collections companies at 12% interest since 2006-2009. I believe the husband and wife were continuously married until her death. You are correct that the wife's liens are not affected by the husband's bankruptcy, which is unfortunate for me, because it's holding up the sale of the property.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    If you don't have the answer to the tenancy question, you don't have a proper title report.

    It's quite possible that the wife's "liens" aren't liens at all. They need to have attached. A judgment against only one spouse when title is held TbyE does not attach. Now, if they divorced, or if they got married after the liens attached, different story.

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  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    4y

    You said the liens are more than the property’s worth. 

    Then you said the mortgage is $80k and the liens are $12k. With a $105k selling price, even with $10k in closing costs the seller can walk away with a grand or two. 

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y

    Have you received a title commitment requiring a release of the liens as a requirement for the issuance of a policy?

  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    4y

    @Tom Gimer @Peter Walther

    I am having a hard time communicating with the closing attorney who's handling the title. I'm not able to get him to email me back or return a phone call. My Realtor basically told me to sign the release and get out of the contract, but I have until Dec, 31, so I'm going to see if I can still get it solved somehow. I don't think I'll be able to get title insurance with all the liens still on title.

  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    4y

    @Bill B.

    Mortgage is $80k, Seller's liens are $14k plus wife's liens $12.6k at 12% interest since 2006 - 2009. The interest is still accruing. Plus as you had mentioned Seller's closing costs. 

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 100 posts · 31 votes
    4y

    24 liens will take some time to sort out. If you take the time to understand each lien (talk to your attorney) you can have clarity.  I have been in similar circumstances but they take time to resolve 

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    4y

    Sorry. Your op said they were taken care of by bankruptcy court and only her liens remain. 

    Still, with his liens not dismissed by court. You’re still only about $10k from closing. Even if you got totally screwed at 6% for 5 years on $10k. That would only cost you $195/mo payment and $320/year interest. It seems like you think it’s worth that. 

    You could also try to find a specialist in dealing with negotiating old debt, otherwise wait for the foreclosure auction. You don’t need to cancel anything as you aren’t failing to close, the seller is. 

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y

    I think what Tom was saying with his post is if the property was owned as tenants by the entireties and the judgments were against the wife only, it's possible the wife's liens never attached to the property and therefore there shouldn't be a requirement for their release on the commitment.  That's why I asked if you had received the commitment, to understand what the title insurer thinks.

    If I wasn't getting a response from the current closing attorney I ask that the closing be moved to a more responsive office.

  • Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2012 · 543 posts · 311 votes
    4y

    Elena, the liens may be close to or even passed the Kentucky Statute of Limitations for debts (generally 10 years for written debts).   If it has been 10 to 15 years since payment was last made (5 yrs in some cases) then the debt is no longer enforceable -unless the lien is the result of a court-ordered judgment.  The date of last payment is worth checking. 

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  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    4y

    @Davido Davido

    Thank you for the suggestion, but unfortunately the liens are court-ordered judgements. Some of them are more than 15 years old, but the creditors filed for an extension, so all of them are still in effect.

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