2 Capital calls in 2 weeks! Ouch

2 Capital calls in 2 weeks! Ouch

Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes

Within the past 2 weeks I got 2 capital calls from different sponsors, I'm assuming that there are many deals in similar situations.

The sponsors are saying, If they have enough capital to bring occupancy to 90% they will have better options to refinance or sell. That's true, however what if they can't deliver on the occupancy in a short period.

They say it's not a good market to sell now. True again, but what if interest rates stay volatile for longer than expected, and the market stays locked up longer.

Meanwhile the property is bleeding 6 figures monthly, and the added capital will only go so far, unless there is a major change in the interest rates soon, and that doesn't seem likely.

They also say if we don't infuse more capital we may lose our principle too, as they will be forced to sell at a loss. That is possible, but this may end up happening anyway.

So, what's the call? Do I put more money into these deals, or do I accept a dilution of my shares and put my money elsewhere?

Here is the thing - our brains are wired to be more sensitive to a loss compared to the possibility of even a much larger gain and we are biased to try and stop a loss.

I think I need to take a step back and think about this like it's a totally new deal, and I have no stake in it, would I invest in this deal now based on all the facts?

What do you think?

12Reply
315 views

Most Popular Reply

Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
3y

@Solomon Rosenberg

I was on a call a month ago with about 50 people and someone asked similar question, one of the people commented

“Has anyone ever had a capital call and the project turn around”

You could hear a pin drop. Before I would provide any capital I would want to see an updated proforma based on current situation and interest rates remaining where they are for the next 36 months. Also an analysis of if they have to sell now

Also is the sponsor waving their fees and reducing equity split for any calls?

Unfortunately in both scenarios you are probably getting wiped or losing almost everything

7e investments53 Reviews
See this reply in the discussion

102 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jay Thomas:

    It's critical to take into account the current market conditions and financial viability when deciding whether or not to invest in a real estate property. Evaluate the potential impact of the market on the property's performance, as well as its overall financial health. Additionally, consider if additional capital infusion is necessary for the property to achieve desired occupancy levels. By carefully assessing these factors, you can make an informed decision about investing in a property that has long-term success potential.

    Insightful comment Chat GPT, I mean Jay

  • Rick MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Redondo Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 411 posts · 477 votes
    3y

    @Solomon Rosenberg it's a tough call. You want to confirm their plan for those extra funds from A - Z. It needs to be more than a bandaid. Will it be enough to accomplish their goal? Do they have a rate cap and are escrowing funds to purchase the next cap, which is probably 10x as expensive?

    The worst case scenario is the bank reclaiming the asset and the investors losing their principal. Have they exhausted all other avenues? They should be looking at all possible loan sources, including a pref equity partner. Your ownership would be diluted, but better than losing your principal.

    Sorry to hear. These are tricky times, and the only way to weather these storms is to be well-capitalized.

  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dan Rowley:

    who is/are the sponsors?  There are likely others on this forum that would benefit from knowing.


     I wouldn't do that, they are not bad actors,  these are C properties with heavy value add which is higher risk, and certainly mistakes were made.

  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Todd Dexheimer:

    Thats a bummer, sorry to hear. Hard to answer your specific situation, but I was talking with a guy that has invested in a ton of deals since the early 2000's and he had 11 capital calls from 2009-2012. All of those deals ended up making it through and returning him double digit AAR's.

    Not saying this will be the case with your deals, but if you believe in the operator, the deal and the market, then I would highly consider putting in the funds. 

    Thanks @Todd Dexheimer
    I think that at the end of the day they will at least be able to salvage the initial investment,  also the returns of the past couple of years were not sustainable and even if its a total loss I am still way ahead. This post was not to discourage anyone from investing, just to share the lessons learned.

  • Investor/RE Broker · Eugene, OR · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 968 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:

    Within the past 2 weeks I got 2 capital calls from different sponsors, I'm assuming that there are many deals in similar situations.

    The sponsors are saying, If they have enough capital to bring occupancy to 90% they will have better options to refinance or sell. That's true, however what if they can't deliver on the occupancy in a short period.

    They say it's not a good market to sell now. True again, but what if interest rates stay volatile for longer than expected, and the market stays locked up longer.

    Meanwhile the property is bleeding 6 figures monthly, and the added capital will only go so far, unless there is a major change in the interest rates soon, and that doesn't seem likely.

    They also say if we don't infuse more capital we may lose our principle too, as they will be forced to sell at a loss. That is possible, but this may end up happening anyway.

    So, what's the call? Do I put more money into these deals, or do I accept a dilution of my shares and put my money elsewhere?

    Here is the thing - our brains are wired to be more sensitive to a loss compared to the possibility of even a much larger gain and we are biased to try and stop a loss.

    I think I need to take a step back and think about this like it's a totally new deal, and I have no stake in it, would I invest in this deal now based on all the facts?

    What do you think?


     I think your final full paragraph is right on the money.  I similarly had my first capital call. And this is exactly how I thought of it.  Although they offered an incentive (larger split) to those LPs who participated, I declined because I did not have the confidence in this particular deal or Sponsor that they would pull it through for a profit.  I decided I best put my funds in something I felt good about, not increase my risk with a sour deal. 

  • Involved In Real Estate · Keller, TX · Member since 2010 · 23 posts · 5 votes
    3y

    Here are the questions I would ask:

    1. What is the current situation in terms of operations (occupancy, delinquency, evictions, etc...) and why is it like that?

    2. What are you going to do to change it and what is the time frame on that? (options include change PM company, change or add assistant asset manager, etc...)

    3. Please show me an updated pro forma including the new investment you are asking for and clearly articulate how your revised plan will support it. 

    Capital calls can happen to extremely experienced investors (including multiple gurus that I follow) when unforeseen circumstances occur. 

    Weighing these factors with the risk to your initial investment, the likelihood of success, how much the GPs are adding to the deal along side you, and your personal risk tolerances. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 214 posts · 234 votes
    3y

    I got notified of a capital call this week, too.

    The other time I got a capital call was on a deal by a first-time sponsor (never repeated that mistake). I declined. The KP took over the management and stopped the bleeding, but it was still sold a little while later for a 20% loss.

    Unless there is a convincing story on how they will turn things around and deliver great returns on the new money, I look at it as potentially throwing good money after bad.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    Statistically speaking, 1 out of five syndication investment would be wipe out even during 2015-2020 good times. These days maybe double than that, I am not surprised about the capital call in multifamily syndication, even during good times the return is only 15% IRR by average. When cap rate is below interest rate and it comes to baloon payment, this is all expected to happen.

    It's good that SEC allows accredited investor only to invest in syndication mainly.

  • Real Estate Investor · Titusville, FL · Member since 2013 · 97 posts · 26 votes
    2y

    @Solomon Rosenberg Any update on your situation?

    Also, you said these sponsors were experienced. How many years of experience? A lot of investors and sponsors have a decade of experience which sounds great, but they've never been through a cycle. They've only operated in a bull market.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Josh Randall:

    @Solomon Rosenberg Any update on your situation?

    Also, you said these sponsors were experienced. How many years of experience? A lot of investors and sponsors have a decade of experience which sounds great, but they've never been through a cycle. They've only operated in a bull market.


     The current cap rate volatility in ALL commercial asset class are exceeding one standard deviation. Now. Today.
    Better lose 25k now than lose 50k tomorrow.

    You should invest only and only IF cap rate has been stabilized for three quarter. Nobody can beat the market volatilty especially in private commercial real estate.

  • Member since 2022 · 405 posts · 455 votes
    2y

    I agree with @Chris Seveney here, I would want to understand exactly how the added capital would be used, how the deal would be turned around in the coming months/years with in the current market. 

  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Josh Randall:

    @Solomon Rosenberg Any update on your situation?

    Also, you said these sponsors were experienced. How many years of experience? A lot of investors and sponsors have a decade of experience which sounds great, but they've never been through a cycle. They've only operated in a bull market.

     @Josh Randall thanks for asking, I should get a better idea over the coming month, your point about experience, one of them has been in the business for close to 20 yrs, and did very well until the music stopped, the euphoria of the crazy returns got to many, and the game changed from running properties well to flipping properties fast, Asset management wasn't given the attention it deserves because you were in and out before it mattered.

    @Carlos Ptriawan @Zachary Ware I came to that conclusion a while back, I don't see a path forward where there is a major positive outcome, and most lp's must feel that way because they couldn't raise the capital they needed, 1 of them is trying to sell, the other one still believes they can salvage the deal.

  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    2y

    Update  - one of the properties sold last month, the lp's are getting back 7% of the invested capital, I'm taking  a hit on this one, I learned some expensive lessons. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    @Solomon Rosenberg

    Can you share the sponsor so others know for future and to confirm you are taking a 93% loss

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:

    Update  - one of the properties sold last month, the lp's are getting back 7% of the invested capital, I'm taking  a hit on this one, I learned some expensive lessons. 


    Basically a wipe out  

  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Solomon Rosenberg

    Can you share the sponsor so others know for future and to confirm you are taking a 93% loss

    That is correct, 93% loss.  I don't want to share names, because this was an experienced sponsor who I believe is an honest person who mmade some serious mistakes, investors should do their due diligence on sponsors and also have a good understanding of how multifamily works so you can sense when the risk is high. I'm sharing my experiences so others can learn from my mistakes. 
  • Investor · Rockland County, NY · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 55 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:

    Update  - one of the properties sold last month, the lp's are getting back 7% of the invested capital, I'm taking  a hit on this one, I learned some expensive lessons. 


    Basically a wipe out  

    That's correct. 
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:

    Update  - one of the properties sold last month, the lp's are getting back 7% of the invested capital, I'm taking  a hit on this one, I learned some expensive lessons. 


    Basically a wipe out  

    That's correct. 

    it's common these days, sales pitch and finance says 1.4 DSCR but in reality it's DSCR 0.6.

    it only makes sense to invest with those who are at very least has 7 years fixed debt financing.

  • Melanie P.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Solomon Rosenberg

    Can you share the sponsor so others know for future and to confirm you are taking a 93% loss

    That is correct, 93% loss.  I don't want to share names, because this was an experienced sponsor who I believe is an honest person who mmade some serious mistakes, investors should do their due diligence on sponsors and also have a good understanding of how multifamily works so you can sense when the risk is high. I'm sharing my experiences so others can learn from my mistakes. 

     Do you know for a fact that this sponsor discloses these money-losing deals in their general marketing and to new investors? If not, how is someone supposed to do "due diligence" when investors who lose money help prop of the "legend" of the "experienced sponsor?"

    It's difficult to learn from "your mistakes" when you are helping cover up the true past performance of an experienced sponsor. 

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    Obviously I don't have all the information to make a judgement but this deal sounds like a loser. Two capital calls in two weeks is a bad sign as it sounds like they just didn't do a good job of figuring out what they actually needed to raise. And losing over $100k each month is terrible (or is that with capital improvements?).

    While I think interest rates will trend down over the next year, I don't think that's a given and I don't think they'll go anywhere near as low as they were in 2022. Further, the multifamily market might very well get worse as more and more loans come up for renewal and the interest rates reset pushing more owners to sell. 

    From afar with limited information, I wouldn't put more money into this deal. 

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    @Solomon Rosenberg, for what is it worth, I tend to agree with Chris and Melanie about sharing names.  As this becomes more and more prevalent in the coming months/year, I think there will be a lot of sponsors that have footnotes on their track record, stating "representative sample" or they will change track record to case studies, and only list their good deals, while sliding some "average" deals that still netted an okay positive return.

    From the LPs side, of course you should be asking questions about losses, is your track record reflective of EVERY deal you have syndicated or raised money for.  The honest ones will always be honest, but there are a lot of "honest" people who are just very good liars and will phrase things in ways that are technically accurate but also do not address the intent of the question.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Evan Polaski:

    @Solomon Rosenberg, for what is it worth, I tend to agree with Chris and Melanie about sharing names.  As this becomes more and more prevalent in the coming months/year, I think there will be a lot of sponsors that have footnotes on their track record, stating "representative sample" or they will change track record to case studies, and only list their good deals, while sliding some "average" deals that still netted an okay positive return.

    From the LPs side, of course you should be asking questions about losses, is your track record reflective of EVERY deal you have syndicated or raised money for.  The honest ones will always be honest, but there are a lot of "honest" people who are just very good liars and will phrase things in ways that are technically accurate but also do not address the intent of the question.


     I agree. Most sponsors are not scumbags or fraudsters. Many are good hardworking people and sometimes they get in over their head. I would not be hiding their name though to protect them as what if little old me when I am a great grandpa has $200k to my name and goes to invest with this person and I did not see anything on BP and they tell me they are awesome...

    When someone decides to raise money from investors, that is the risk they take on. 

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Investor · Hillsboro, OR · Member since 2016 · 304 posts · 153 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Solomon Rosenberg:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Solomon Rosenberg

    Can you share the sponsor so others know for future and to confirm you are taking a 93% loss

    That is correct, 93% loss.  I don't want to share names, because this was an experienced sponsor who I believe is an honest person who mmade some serious mistakes, investors should do their due diligence on sponsors and also have a good understanding of how multifamily works so you can sense when the risk is high. I'm sharing my experiences so others can learn from my mistakes. 

     I don't think this is just about honesty.  I'm honest and I make mistakes every day.  I need to know how you are preventing these mistakes happening again.  If someone doesn't want to discuss their mistakes, they should not be investing other peoples money.  

    I agree that investors have to do due dilligence.  My question is, How do you do that if no one publically states names?

  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 355 posts · 268 votes
    2y

    No excuse for poor management from an experienced sponsor. Lower than 90% occupancy in multifamily means asking rent is too high or units are offline (management issue).

  • Specialist · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 136 posts · 109 votes
    2y

    @Evan Polaski is right with: " I think there will be a lot of sponsors that have footnotes on their  track record, stating "representative sample" or they will change track  record to case studies, and only list their good deals, while sliding  some "average" deals that still netted an okay positive return. "

    Some sponsors will not "lie"; yet intentionally withhold the full truth.

    Non-disclosure of what could be deemed pertinent data to one's financial decisions is potential grounds for legal issues. Some would say it's material data. Transparency is more and more demanded by investors as well as the gov FTC, CFPB types. Business to business non-disclosure is one thing of "buyer beware" that is sadly tolerated; business to consumer games seems less tolerable these days.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.