Commercial Financing...

Commercial Financing...

OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes

Hello Everyone! I am just getting into contract in the next few days with a 47 unit multi-family property. The numbers are great, the occupancy is high and the property is well maintained! My questions is this....

I am going for a meeting next week with my first lender who is/has done deals within the last year with financing multi-family properties. He has already reviewed the numbers on the property and says it looks very solid...

Here's the tricky part... I am a younger investor. The lender said, first he needs to have 20% cash down payment.. Good part is, I have the cash in my savings account! Next, my credit is great....800+....

Now for the bad news...I only show very little income, maybe $40,000 a year (self-employed)...

The debt service coverage ratio is "1.64"...fairly strong..Property historical tax returns speak for themselves.. Problem is, I don't.

I have the cash down payment required by the lender, I have the credit score needed but I don't have a large enough income on paper coming in...

Here's another curveball... I have a father who is well-qualified for the loan. This being my deal he wants me to do this solo...He has mentioned he is willingly to co-sign because he has cash reserve accounts which would justify the "recourse" aspect to the lender however he doesn't want his "debt to income" ratio to get skewed because he wouldn't being earning any "profits" from this deal...

So firstly, is there any hope for me qualifying?

Secondly, is there a way for my father to be on the loan without it affecting his "debt to income ratio"? In case he wants a loan in the next few years, I don't want him to be affected by being on the loan..Is there a different way to structure the loan buy just utilizing his cash reserve accounts?

Please advice everyone, looking for all suggestions...

Thanks!

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
12y

True story. I was talking to another commercial lender friend of mine. An investor with a high net worth was wanting a premium term loan. They owned hotels and had about 6 million liquid and another 5 million in equity assets.

They were going for another hotel with my commercial mortgage broker friend. Apparently the investor had a second home that was slightly underwater in value. An attorney had advised him to stop making payments and short sale the property!

The payments were about 2,000 a month. So when the time came for his loan to come through it was denied. Befuddled the high net worth investor couldn't believe the commercial lender wouldn't approve them. The lender stated if they would stiff someone else over such a small loan what did that say about their character on honoring a much larger one.

So here is this high net worth borrower with perfect credit and now it is blemished thinking they would save 2,000 a month. Now the increases in interest rate for all facets of his life will way more than pass 2,000 a month in his carrying costs. This investors could have rented his place out or completed a ton of other options that wouldn't damage them like this. Remember not all attorneys give good advice!

It just blows me away how people even with lot's of money do not logically think things through.

See this reply in the discussion

125 Replies

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  • Lender · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2009 · 825 posts · 486 votes
    12y

    Chris, thanks for explaining the situation from a bank's perspective.

    One word ... paragraphs.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    Yes many items are negotiable however I find it more difficult to get the unlimited guarantees lifted. I've talked to several banks that would limit guarantees before the crash however now their policies have changed with many new regulations in place. A strong relationship and extremely solid financials probably help however some banks won't budge. I've tried to negotiate this on several loans without much luck.

  • Real Estate Agent · Owasso, OK · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 400 votes
    12y

    yeah...my bad...too much rambling. didn't mean to go that long but i just couldn't shut up.

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    UPDATE:

    I have met with (2) potential lenders & both sound very positive. They are getting financing proposals together & I am awaiting to see the offers.

    Both lenders have different terms & it's going to greatly depend on the strength of the property as well as my father and I (borrowers). We are in great shape so I am interested to see the terms.

    Will keep you updated on both of the lenders term proposals.

    Thanks again,

    Nik

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    Alright everyone,

    I have checked the building over briefly... do you guys always get a commercial inspection? Do banks require a commercial inspection or is it only for the owners benefit?

    I was able to check 2 vacant units and 1 occupied unit. All appeared to be in the same good condition. Roofs are in good shape. Boiler system was upgraded a few years ago and appears to be in great shape as well....

    The total rentable space is just under 30k sq ft..... Obviously, I wouldn't want to get every unit inspected however what are your thoughts when this comes to mind.....Should I spend the $1000-2500+ on the inspection and/or go in with the mentality that things will inevitably occur (repairs will need to be done sooner or later)....

    First thoughts that come to mind...

    Thanks again everyone.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Why wouldn't you want to inspect every unit? That will be where a good part of your negotiating strength comes from as you move forward - the actual condition vs. the purported condition. Saving $2500 on inspections is not be the place to be pinching pennies on a 1.3M purchase, IMO.

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    For the full inspection it will range from $3500-5500.. Pinching pennies isn't the goal here, it's more for a practical side.... I got the current seller down just under $150k from his asking price (sure, there is a 5-10% mark up on the asking price).. At this point, if it doesn't meet my inspection expectations, I can either back out of the deal and/or TRY and re-negotiate purchase price...Currently, we are in contract for a set purchase price and contingencies....At the properties current position, I am getting a solid deal....suppose the inspector says the roof is going to have some issues probably in 2-3 years based on it's current status.....I can look at the scenario as if I invest back into the property (capital improvements), it makes my investment that much stronger come exit time....sure my approach may sound a bit lackadaisical given such a transaction...

    Appreciate the insight, in a perfect world sure I'd love to spend the $5000 and get a full report...but do I really need to ... that's the basis of my thinking.....

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    For example, instead of paying the inspector the $5000...I rather put that back into the property for some cosmetic repairs and or structural repairs.... things will always happen regardless....whether in minutes, hours, days and or years....

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    @Nik S.

    The bank will probably only require an appraisal at the 1.3MM price point however that doesn't mean you shouldn't get a formal inspection. Spend the money on a solid property inspector and get all the units inspected. It's a smaller building so you should be able to get a solid inspection for around $2-2,500 price point with inspecting all the units.

    I would also reach out to 2-3 contractors in each trade to review the exterior and roofing, HVAC, plumbing and electrical systems etc. You will start to paint a picture based on what their comments are (in conjunction with the inspector's report). The more eyes you can get on the building the better....especially when starting off.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    @Nik S.

    You don't know what you don't know right now. Everybody is at that position when starting out however you are more likely to make mistakes because of it. So basically you are stating that the seller will not come down on his price anymore than he already has...maybe or maybe not. Regardless of that point you are looking for deal breakers in your due diligence. Items that make this "deal" a "dud". You state that you can absorb a roof replacement into your numbers. How about a complete tear off with parapet wall repairs, and decking replacement? How about a massive plumbing problem that you don't know about? How about a continuing water leak that has caused mold to grow in 25% of the units? Can you absorb gutting 25% of the building? Be smart and get the inspection. At the very least you will have a great plan for setting up capital reserves based on capital improvement projects needed over the next 5 years.

    Remember....you don't know what you don't know. I felt like I knew a lot when I started out...however 5-6 years later I realize how much I didn't know. I'm constantly learning and I feel like I've finally reached the point where I know what I don't know. And there is so much that I don't know.

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    Ok, I get your message & it makes sense....In addition, besides money, I have nothing else to lose by getting an inspection....

    Now I have justified my inspection this way....I have setup an inspection with an inspector that will give me a "General Condition Inspection". Within this, he will let me know of any structural defects (red flags), electrical, plumbing, roof, etc issues. In reference to the roof, he requested to see 2-3 units on the top floor to help determine any issues caused by the roof.

    Is he going to inspect all 47 units...no...he will inspect 2-3 units on the top floors of the buildings (3) and he will select random units to inspect maybe 5-6...

    My cost in this is roughly $500-600 for the inspection.

  • Specialist · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2010 · 71 posts · 27 votes
    12y

    "I have a great building that I would love to sell you at a great price, but you can only inspect these two units...."

    That is essential what you have just done to yourself. Maybe you don't need an inspector to look at all of the units but you sure better at least walk through them! You will learn a lot about the tenants, the management and the ins-and-outs of the building.

    Also when I am told a roof needs to be replaced in 2-3 years all I hear is; "this roof will need to be replaced in 2-3 MONTHS". The appraiser will catch this and may require a set aside for capex. Might as well get some bids on it now.

    Sounds like things are moving along. Good Luck!

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    i am going through 2 purchases on houses over 10+ mortgages. so i am having difficulty finding lenders that do it.

    @Joel Owens , the typical loan quote i am getting is 25% down, 5yr balloon, amortized over 15 (20 max). and they wont budge on fees even though i am closing on two at roughly same time. around 5.25% rate.

    most (2 out of 4) want to charge me points origination fees of 1.25% as well.

    overall i called ~53 people/institutions and found just 4 that would do it.

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    @Seth Wilson

    I am not limiting myself to only 2 units simply do not wish to have a FULL 47 unit inspection as it will take time and money. My needs are to look for major issues that are red flags.

    My roof scenario was hypothetical as well... I will update you all on the inspection (June 19th) and see how it plays out.. Thanks for the response!!

    @George P.

    I am in the process of getting proposals... ill keep you updated...

    5.25% seems very high.... is it due to the risk associated you think?

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    mostly because commercial real estate is more expensive and u don't have choices

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    You don't really have many choices with the small balance stuff.

    The small banks are the ones wanting that product so they do not compete much on terms by choice.

    It's kind of like casinos. If you go to Harrah's in a state that only has that one gambling place then they set the payout machine rates in the low 80's. This was years ago so it might have changed now and I have no clue so don't quote me on it... : )

    I do know that for instance in Vegas where casinos are a dime a dozen they have to offer free food, comped rooms, payout machines in the mid to high 90's to get people to play or they go elsewhere.

    So it's all a function of competition. I can't stand the five year loans but if all you are going to buy is smaller stuff then that is mostly what you will get. To the big boys for lending they see a small loan as 2 million. To get them to do 1 million is a personal favor to you as a commercial RE broker because you bring them so much other business.

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    joel, who does the big loans? i hope i get to use them one day!!

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    Ok guys... heres the FIRST proposal....Let me know what you think...

    Term:10 years; 20 year amortization.

    Rate:4.13% fixed for the first 5 years. Then adjusting to the 5-year FHLB advance rate plus 3.25% for the second 5-years. The loan will have a floor rate of 4.13%.

    ***Please need thoughts or concerns***

    Another coming tomorrow, then decision time.

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    tentatively... I'm loving it.. even if the FHLB goes up from 2% - 3.5% in 5 years.. then @ 6.5% financing the lessor principal... it works out to the same....!

  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Nik S.:
    Ok guys... heres the FIRST proposal....Let me know what you think...

    Term:10 years; 20 year amortization.

    Rate:4.13% fixed for the first 5 years. Then adjusting to the 5-year FHLB advance rate plus 3.25% for the second 5-years. The loan will have a floor rate of 4.13%.

    ***Please need thoughts or concerns***

    Another coming tomorrow, then decision time.


    Good rate. The rate can really affect your payment depending on the size of loan.

    I'm very close to closing on a commercial loan refinancing a group of my properties in the Central Valley.

    Here are the terms to my deal...

    Rate 4.675% fixed, Fee .50%, Ammortization 25 year, Term 7 years, 65% LTV, Prepayment 2% of outstanding balance waived if sold.

    Part of my loan includes a line of credit which is wall street prime +1%.

    Frank

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    @Joel Owens

    Good Afternoon Joel... let me know what you think of my tentative first offer......I know you stated you hated the 5 yr fixed.... check these terms out let me know your personal thoughts....

    Love to hear from everyone else as well... never hurts to hear opinions!

    Much love everyone!

  • Real Estate Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 53 posts · 41 votes
    12y

    @Nik S. Good questions, great conversation thread, learned a lot!

  • OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    12y

    @Albert Bui @Chris Winterhalter @Chris Simmons

    Guys, give me your initial thoughts on the first tentative term proposal.. I have formed my opinion but extremely open to hearing your initial thoughts.. We've made it this far... Now time to get to the home stretch...

    Thanks again everyone.

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    i like this rate/terms. i'd take it

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    @Nik S. 

    Can you provide more details on the loan proposal?  Did you get a term sheet signed by the banker? What does it state? 

    • Origination fee? Any other lender fees like document fee, underwriting fee etc.  
    • Pre-payment penalty?  
    • Will they limit the dollar amount you and your father guarantee?  Or do they require unlimited guarantees?  
    • 4.13% fixed for 5 years is a good rate for the midwest.  You can probably push them to 4% or a tad lower depending on your other loan proposal.  
    • LTV?
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