Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Rental Property Investor · Las Palmas de Gran Canaria · Member since 2014 · 220 posts · 256 votes

While cashflow is key to keep the property safely under control, I seem to find that the larger returns for our portfolio to date come from strategic growth of equity. My wife and I are still fairly small in our investing business and I want to ask if the long-term seasoned investors have found the same to be true, especially in the larger multi families, where value is more closely tied.

Example: A Current Deal We Are Wrapping Up:

My partners and I bought a home in Santa Cruz, CA in May 2011 for 389k and remodeled it. After a cash out refi where we had 108k of our investment left in the deal. Rented the pre-tax profits were $6,840 annually. That is a 6.3% return cash on cash, which in our area is basically a freaking miracle of the crash. I was only expecting 2.8% in my original performa. Haven't seen any deals like that since 2012. The property is being sold and closes in 5 days. For the three+ years we owned it, we basically accumulated $22,550 in rental profits.

In those three years, we saw some serious appreciation. You could call me a speculator, but the indicators were there. A strong job market (thank you silicon valley), a major university, over 3 million tourist annually (to a town of 50k residents), major agricultural center, amazing natural resources / extreme sports meca, a world famous brand and limited room for growth. Houses in a good neighborhood were being sold below replacement cost. I'd call that a strategic acquisition with strong potential for growth. Forcing equity through a remodel provided a nice bit of padding.

We are selling the house for the equivalent of 640k. Net proceeds of the sale minus cash invested is 168k. That is 155% return on investment (37% compounded annualized return). 

Even if I had ended up with a 0% cash on cash, I would still be doing a happy dance. I don't see cashflow deals offering anything in the range of that return

I imagine there may be a day when we need to convert our equity into cashflow. At that point, we will probably pivot again. 

So What Do You Think?

Brandon / Josh often seem to call equity investors gamblers on the BP podcast (although they mostly seem to be warning newbies not to buy stupid), but for those of us looking to build wealth, who are willing to do careful homework, learn the markets, do the deal analysis and make careful strategic plays, make sure we are not upside down or outside our fiscal means, my experience to date says investing in strong equity growth markets, perhaps despite their poor cashflows, seems like the strong play.

Alright, bring on the arguments and tell me where I might be right or wrong (especially as we are moving our portfolio into the larger apartment complexes)!

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Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

I have a few dozen houses at any given time. As @Account Closed stated, one pile pays my bills and puts food on the table, the other pile is for horse trading. Your experience is EXACTLY why buying California property makes the most sense to me. People brag about their $300 cash flow from their dumpy *** $60,000 house out east of the Rockies. Really? I bought a few dozen houses back in 2009-2011. I'm now selling some of them off as they go vacant. The last house I recently sold, I paid $81,000 for it 4 years ago and just sold it for $274,900. On top of that phenomenal gain (approx $150K net), I collected $1,550/month rent from the same tenant all 4 years. 

Now, the naysayers be like "Well, that was the bottom of the market. That can't be done now!" 

I just closed on a nice Riverside house out by UCR. Paid $90K for it. My private lender wired $125K to escrow. I got a $28K refund check from escrow. (Read that as nontaxable income.) Property will rent for $1,700 when I'm done fixing it up. 

Have fun on your airplane ride and staying in Motel 8 naysayers.

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  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Wilson Churchill 

      I am all for locals that live in a market loading up on rentals and cheap rentals as they are in a position to make them work and over see them.. The issue comes from those that are out of area and thinking they are going to create some great wealth strategy buying 2 to 5 cheapie rentals... the pain to get to the wealth component usually outweighs the benefits.

    there was a thread a month or so back were a person ask anyone who had own Mid west cash flow rentals for 10 years or more and lived out of state to chime in about their experiences there was either no one or maybe one or two.. the reality is for those living 4 states or 5 states away this is just a really tough road to hoe... There is a thread today on BP of a person who owns a home in MI he owes 44k on it tenant trashed it needs 7k to be rentable yet again.. and he is at last out of money because of this one property, and to make matters worse he financed it with a national lender so his credit is at risk the best offer he can get of course is from a wholesaler for 17k this scenario happens hundreds of times a week in the mid west it JUST DOES  but we never hear about it we only hear about the blue sky and those that sell the dream...

     Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to manage property out of state. I really have no intention of trying this, outside of larger apartment buildings. But there are plenty of investments in my area to keep me busy.

    $7,000 for a turnover? I would like to get the details on that. When I do repairs, I try to do some of the work myself and hire others for $10 per hour to help me. The more I can learn about construction, the less I have to rely on expensive contractors. Since I know how to install a tile floor, for example, I can show people how to do it and pay them much less than if I were paying someone that specializes in tile floors.

    Recently, I had a tenant that moved out after getting 6 dogs and 3 cats without my permission. Needless to say, the flooring was ruined. I washed the walls and floors with bleach, after removing the carpet. I installed tile and paid people to help. The entire cost was less than $1000. I collected $4,900 from that tenant over a six month period, so I am not to disappointed. The security deposit covered most of the cost, and I had the unit rented the next month, producing no vacancy.

  • Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 969 posts · 524 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs 

    I agree it is definitely an art...but I have perfected it now it took me 8 years to figure out LOL!! Also I definitely don't work as hard as I did at Wells Fargo that's why I pay a team that works for me. I do work hard though because I like to stay involved in my business and I am only 36 years old so I don't mind getting my hands dirty. It shows my team that I wouldn't ask them to do something that I wouldn't do myself.

    You are correct that stuff happens everyday of the week in Memphis period it doesn't matter what price point, thieves/bad people are everywhere not just in the $30-$50k areas, I have seen 100's of condensers taken from homes that sale for 100k-$300k here in Memphis. Cages are a good deterrent but sometimes that doesn't stop a thief. It doesn't take my homes $1k-$2k a year to stay on the program I would say on average maybe $500 dollars or less due to the problems that come up during Sec 8 renewals are very minor.

    To stay on topic with the Forum subject-Buy and Holding has built wealth for me-Cash flowing is what comes with the term Buy and Hold if you are doing things correct. I don't think any one should purchase a home and let it just sit in hopes that it will bring more money in the future due to appreciation. Why not rehab fix it and make money from rent while it is appreaciating then you experience the best of both worlds.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

      for sure they exist  but the collecting regularly is the issue. But I have clients of mine that do this and do it we..  But they are local.. It is their lifes work they all handle all aspects of rehab they self manage they place their own tenants.. ( some will pay a fee to do this) the jist is they buy TRUE WHOLESALE and do not pay 20 to 30% of their cash flow to a for profit company so yes they can hit those metics with some regularity and success.

    But your not going to sit over on the flanks of Diamond head looking out at the blue ocean and have this all done for you like you can in the Bay Area.. Just not going to happen.. Now that's a blanket statement and some do fine but many many do not so if you just happen to be that one who is sitting in their cube in Menlo or Mtn.View and its your house the thieves targeted that night well your just out.. you get the dear Investor e mail from your PM 

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

    I really like your signature line "It slowly dawned on me that we won the real estate lottery!" I suspect I too won the lottery.

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    @Jay Hinrichs I was briefly tempted by those $35k Memphis houses. :) Thank God I did not pull the trigger.   If I have to repair a roof, I'd much rather repair roof over a 500K house than over a 50K house. The cost won't differ by 10X would it?

    But if you had $500,000 worth of $50,000 houses you'd have TEN roofs to replace!  YUCK, who moved my cash flow?

     It's not so bad. I wouldn't mind having $500,000 worth of $20,000 homes. Sure, you have 25 roofs, but also 25 units paying an average of $700 per month (depending on the city). With a payback period of only a few years, who cares if the roofs need to be changed? A properly installed roof can last for a couple decades or more.

     Please show me a NBHD of $20,000 homes that can collect $700 a month regularly.

     I am not familiar with "NBHD". My strategy is to purchase the cheapest homes on the market. I might look at 10+ homes and then cherry pick the ones that need work and are selling at a discount, but are also in decent areas and don't require work that is too expensive. Short sales seem to be the best deals. I have also had luck making low-ball offers on homes.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    one of the top turnkey companies in Memphis that specializes in selling homes in the $57,900 average price range told me he experiences on average 40% late paying tenants every month.  He renovates his homes nicer then most of us who are aelling $80k + homes so though nothing is impossible,  more times then any an out of state investor will not win with under $40k all in homes.  

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Derrick Craig 

      Derrick your so right.. but I have a Portlandia frame of reference.. many homes here in Oregon do not have Air-conditioning. There are about 10 to 15 days that you will be miserable but the rest its no big deal..

    So to your point about missing condenser units.. I am sitting in my closing attorneys office in henry county just south of Atlanta. and these were class B offices single level but very nice in a great area, right down the street from a big country club development .. And I asked him why is it so hot in here.. He replied and you guessed it.. Our condensers got stolen last night... LOL  So yes it happens all across the board out there and its just not something a west coast person would deal with or be cognizant of.. My guys I do business with out there. It goes like this.

    Second tenant moves out the condenser is removed and stored.. house re rented.. Nothing of value goes in until the day the tenant moves in or the HUD inspection.. So they let the tenant in before the HUD inspection .. The day the tenant moves in Hvac water heater and appliances are put in... Other wise if you do it and those items sit for a week or so there is a good chance by the time you get back there they will be stolen. I am sure you operate in the same manner anyone who has any experience in those markets does.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:

     I am not familiar with "NBHD". 

    NeighBorHooD...I'll settle for a  Craigslist neighborhood.

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:

     I am not familiar with "NBHD". 

    NeighBorHooD...I'll settle for a  Craigslist neighborhood.

     A few years ago there were several here in Madison Heights. I purchased one last year, but it was the cheapest house in the city and I practically had to bribe the listing agent to get it. But my total investment in that one is closer to $30,000. My $20,000 (and less) deals have been in Pontiac. Most investors I talk to shy away from Pontiac for obvious reasons. I used to live there, so I am familiar with the various neighborhoods and hoods. There seem to be some cheap homes in Roseville, Warren, and other suburbs of Detroit.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    @J Scott What is the price range of your Atlanta property? And how much is the property tax rate? What does the rental number look like?

    I don't own any rentals in Atlanta anymore (I hate rentals and sold them all when I moved to Maryland).  But, here's the last rental I bought in Atlanta before leaving:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4255-Tenneyson-L...

    Purchased for $35K, put in about $8K in repairs and rented it for $925/month.  Neighborhood was great -- solid blue-collar B/B- area where I'd be perfectly comfortable with my wife walking around in a bikini at night.  :-) 

    We purchased this property for about $30K under market. Had I held it, I could have financed it at 75% LTV at 5% for 15 years with a local porfolio lender I worked with. COC would have been 25%+. I've found a bunch of these deals over the years...

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

     That was last year, as I said. The cheapest one I see listed now is $34,900. And it's the only one that cheap. Again, it was the cheapest one in the city. Why should I pay full price for a house if I don't have to? A buddy of mine bought his first house for $20,000 in Madison Heights this year, but it was a private sale from a landlord, and it needs work. He is a licensed contractor and master plumber, so he will do everything.

    $20,000 is actually cheap for Pontiac as well. I don't like to pay full price for anything I buy.

  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y
    Ned Carey I am talking about net cash flow income. Isn't that the only type of cash flow that matters? If you own rentals there are expenses and such as taxes, insurance and upkeep. So even if your mortgages are free and clear, if you don't have tenants then your cash flow is negative. Am I right?
  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

     That was last year, as I said. The cheapest one I see listed now is $34,900. And it's the only one that cheap. Again, it was the cheapest one in the city. Why should I pay full price for a house if I don't have to? A buddy of mine bought his first house for $20,000 in Madison Heights this year, but it was a private sale from a landlord, and it needs work. He is a licensed contractor and master plumber, so he will do everything.

    $20,000 is actually cheap for Pontiac as well. I don't like to pay full price for anything I buy.

    Please show a $20,000 property that will sell for 2.4 times the gross rents.

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

     That was last year, as I said. The cheapest one I see listed now is $34,900. And it's the only one that cheap. Again, it was the cheapest one in the city. Why should I pay full price for a house if I don't have to? A buddy of mine bought his first house for $20,000 in Madison Heights this year, but it was a private sale from a landlord, and it needs work. He is a licensed contractor and master plumber, so he will do everything.

    $20,000 is actually cheap for Pontiac as well. I don't like to pay full price for anything I buy.

    Please show a $20,000 property that will sell for 2.4 times the gross rents.

     Here is the last one I bought:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/163-Legrande-Ave...

    I believe that it could sell for 2.4 times the gross rents. It is currently rented for 694 per month, as determined by the housing commission. It was a short sale. The previous owner lived in the home. It needed only minor work, including siding repair, painting, concrete porch repair, hard wired smoke detectors, drywall near the chimney that was leaking, roofing tar, and one floor needed to be lightly sanded and stained. I also added a brick perimeter around the flower bed in front. My total investment is around $16,000.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:

    If you own rentals there are expenses and such as taxes, insurance and upkeep. So even if your mortgages are free and clear, if you don't have tenants then your cash flow is negative. Am I right?

    Actually no.  A well managed portfolio is never going to be 100% vacant. Even if by some extreme fluke it did happen, it wouldn't be for a whole year.   So when I say net income I mean NET.  That means after expenses debt service and including after vacancies.

    Marcus your point would be well taken if you were talking to some newbie that is not aware of all the hidden expenses in managing rentals.  I think we should all make an effort to educate new investors on all the hidden and unexpected costs in any type of real estate investing. I regularly try to do that myself. But I am not a newbie and I know what net means. 

  • James B.Pro Member
    Investor · Monterey Area, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 81 votes
    12y

    @Shane Pearlman 

    "Flip for income, Hold for wealth"- Anonymous

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

     That was last year, as I said. The cheapest one I see listed now is $34,900. And it's the only one that cheap. Again, it was the cheapest one in the city. Why should I pay full price for a house if I don't have to? A buddy of mine bought his first house for $20,000 in Madison Heights this year, but it was a private sale from a landlord, and it needs work. He is a licensed contractor and master plumber, so he will do everything.

    $20,000 is actually cheap for Pontiac as well. I don't like to pay full price for anything I buy.

    Please show a $20,000 property that will sell for 2.4 times the gross rents.

     Here is the last one I bought:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/163-Legrande-Ave...

    I believe that it could sell for 2.4 times the gross rents. It is currently rented for 694 per month, as determined by the housing commission. It was a short sale. The previous owner lived in the home. It needed only minor work, including siding repair, painting, concrete porch repair, hard wired smoke detectors, drywall near the chimney that was leaking, roofing tar, and one floor needed to be lightly sanded and stained. I also added a brick perimeter around the flower bed in front. My total investment is around $16,000.

     The sales subject still needs a couple of rent comps.  And a business reason why it would ONLY sell for 2.4 times.  If its because the rents are uncollectable or declining then I'm not interested.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Purchased for $35K, put in about $8K in repairs and rented it for $925/month.  Neighborhood was great -- solid blue-collar B/B- area where I'd be perfectly comfortable with my wife walking around in a bikini at night.  :-) 

    We purchased this property for about $30K under market. Had I held it, I could have financed it at 75% LTV at 5% for 15 years with a local porfolio lender I worked with. COC would have been 25%+. I've found a bunch of these deals over the years...

    Congrats on the great investment. But it seems to me you made all your money from buying under market value, not from the drip drop of rental cash flow. And that proves the point wealth is made from the delta between property value at time of purchase and time of sale, not from drip dropping of rental income.

  • David MamsaPro Member
    Tracy, CA · Member since 2012 · 48 posts · 22 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    @Jay Hinrichs You are the anti-turnkey. LOL

    I agree 100%. There is really no reason for Bay Area investors to invest out of state. If you want to buy cheap and cashflowing houses go take a look at Central Valley. Any town up and down Hwy 99. You can even go fix the toilet if it comes down to that. 

    May not be the case any more. I own a few in Manteca and surroundings bought during 2010-2012 time frame which are cash flowing. If I had to buy the same property today I wont cash flow.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    If $13, 000 properties rent for $700 does that mean the median priced properties rent for over $6, 000?

  • Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2011 · 227 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    After reading 5 pages in this thread, these were my thoughts.....

    Every area in the country is going to be a tad different. I believe location is what determines strategy. If you are smart, you can make money anywhere in the US investing in real estate. There are different strategies that work better in different areas. It is interesting how some bash buying and holding real estate for cash flow. If your property cash flows, you are also building wealth. Most of you also bash out of state investing. If you know how to run a true business, that should not be a problem either. It simply takes systems in place. I believe with the correct systems in place and if you have built strong relationships with people on your team, you should be able to invest anywhere. I look at real estate as just another business. You will have profits and you will have losses, just make sure your profits are much higher than your losses. 

    As for this 2% rule, 50% rule, and any other "rules" go in investing, I think that is a bunch of BS. Investing is a craft, not just some formula. Too many newbies listen to that and think it is a must or the secret to their investing success.

    ROI is what is critical to building wealth. Your income represents the base upon which you build lifetime wealth. The higher your income (could be your cash flow), the greater your potential for accumulating significant assets (wealth).

    There is nothing wrong with multiple strategies and investing in multiple areas. Walmart doesn't just have stores that are within an hour of where the owners live, do they? What is wrong with thinking big? Donald Trump doesn't just own buildings within an hour of his residence, does he? No, he has systems in place and relationships built that enable him to invest all over the world.

    Real estate investing can even be accomplished part time. Your results may even be better than your part time efforts. What would be wrong with building a NET worth of over 1.5 million dollars worth of real estate that generates over $11K in NET cash flow (income) part time over a 8-9 year period? I forgot to mention, what if you only used banks as your partners and never did anything over a 15 year ammortized loan? However, what if  it is 2500 miles away from where you reside? Oh, I know it's those airplane rides you would have to take to go visit your holdings that would be too much bother. Oh and by the way there is no Motel 6 in the area. LOL  SMH. 

    Why are people so narrow minded..............?

    I guess 27 years as a business owner gives me a different view than most. 

    By the way, I hope you have heard of the old cliche': There is more than one way to skin a cat", not that I would ever skin a cat. Obviously what it does mean is that there is more than one solution to most problems.

    I also believe that if we all helped each other, was more supportive of each other and didn't try to degrade or tear apart what someone else is building, we would all go much further. Even Canadian Geese have figured that one out!

    Happy Investing!! 

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @David Mamsa:
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    @Jay Hinrichs You are the anti-turnkey. LOL

    I agree 100%. There is really no reason for Bay Area investors to invest out of state. If you want to buy cheap and cashflowing houses go take a look at Central Valley. Any town up and down Hwy 99. You can even go fix the toilet if it comes down to that. 

    May not be the case any more. I own a few in Manteca. If I had to buy the same property today I wont cash flow.

    OMG,  have rents dropped that much in just a couple of years?

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Terry Hershberger:

    I also believe that if we all helped each other, was more supportive of each other and didn't try to degrade or tear apart what someone else is building, we would all go much further. Even Canadian Geese have figured that one out!

    Definitely. I don't ever mean to degrade anyone. I pride myself having an open mind. It's hard and I have to actively remind myself not to be married to any one idea.

  • Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 94 votes
    12y

    Thank you to all that took the time to post on this thread...  Lots of great dialogue.

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