Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Rental Property Investor · Las Palmas de Gran Canaria · Member since 2014 · 220 posts · 256 votes

While cashflow is key to keep the property safely under control, I seem to find that the larger returns for our portfolio to date come from strategic growth of equity. My wife and I are still fairly small in our investing business and I want to ask if the long-term seasoned investors have found the same to be true, especially in the larger multi families, where value is more closely tied.

Example: A Current Deal We Are Wrapping Up:

My partners and I bought a home in Santa Cruz, CA in May 2011 for 389k and remodeled it. After a cash out refi where we had 108k of our investment left in the deal. Rented the pre-tax profits were $6,840 annually. That is a 6.3% return cash on cash, which in our area is basically a freaking miracle of the crash. I was only expecting 2.8% in my original performa. Haven't seen any deals like that since 2012. The property is being sold and closes in 5 days. For the three+ years we owned it, we basically accumulated $22,550 in rental profits.

In those three years, we saw some serious appreciation. You could call me a speculator, but the indicators were there. A strong job market (thank you silicon valley), a major university, over 3 million tourist annually (to a town of 50k residents), major agricultural center, amazing natural resources / extreme sports meca, a world famous brand and limited room for growth. Houses in a good neighborhood were being sold below replacement cost. I'd call that a strategic acquisition with strong potential for growth. Forcing equity through a remodel provided a nice bit of padding.

We are selling the house for the equivalent of 640k. Net proceeds of the sale minus cash invested is 168k. That is 155% return on investment (37% compounded annualized return). 

Even if I had ended up with a 0% cash on cash, I would still be doing a happy dance. I don't see cashflow deals offering anything in the range of that return

I imagine there may be a day when we need to convert our equity into cashflow. At that point, we will probably pivot again. 

So What Do You Think?

Brandon / Josh often seem to call equity investors gamblers on the BP podcast (although they mostly seem to be warning newbies not to buy stupid), but for those of us looking to build wealth, who are willing to do careful homework, learn the markets, do the deal analysis and make careful strategic plays, make sure we are not upside down or outside our fiscal means, my experience to date says investing in strong equity growth markets, perhaps despite their poor cashflows, seems like the strong play.

Alright, bring on the arguments and tell me where I might be right or wrong (especially as we are moving our portfolio into the larger apartment complexes)!

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Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

I have a few dozen houses at any given time. As @Account Closed stated, one pile pays my bills and puts food on the table, the other pile is for horse trading. Your experience is EXACTLY why buying California property makes the most sense to me. People brag about their $300 cash flow from their dumpy *** $60,000 house out east of the Rockies. Really? I bought a few dozen houses back in 2009-2011. I'm now selling some of them off as they go vacant. The last house I recently sold, I paid $81,000 for it 4 years ago and just sold it for $274,900. On top of that phenomenal gain (approx $150K net), I collected $1,550/month rent from the same tenant all 4 years. 

Now, the naysayers be like "Well, that was the bottom of the market. That can't be done now!" 

I just closed on a nice Riverside house out by UCR. Paid $90K for it. My private lender wired $125K to escrow. I got a $28K refund check from escrow. (Read that as nontaxable income.) Property will rent for $1,700 when I'm done fixing it up. 

Have fun on your airplane ride and staying in Motel 8 naysayers.

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    Congrats on the great investment. But it seems to me you made all your money from buying under market value, not from the drip drop of rental cash flow. And that proves the point wealth is made from the delta between property value at time of purchase and time of sale, not from drip dropping of rental income.

    Wait a second...I give a single example of a house I purchased below market and then resold and you believe it "proves" that wealth can only be made by doing that particular thing?  

    So, if I gave an example of someone who got wealthy off cash flow, would that *prove* that cash flow is the way to wealth?

    Sorry, but as an engineer, I have a very specific (and rigorous) definition of the word "proof" -- if arguments are going to be made that a single example defines a rule, then I'm pretty sure this is a discussion I can't have.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley - My mother is a very wise woman.  One thing she said to me from a very young age - "Quit looking for brains up your ***"...

    How does this apply to the present conversation?  Well, first of all, while passive income is not totally activity-free, 5 hours/month on the phone beats anything else out there IMO.

    And secondly, with a diagnosis of MS, do I really want to be flipping houses for equity?  For $100,000 - yes; but for $15,000 - hell no.  Things are much more black and white for me Bill than you think.  Rediscovering the wheel with every rehab causes stress - stress is bad for my health -  do I want to put my health on the line to make money for my family?  For $100,000 a pop - perhaps; for $15,000 - hell now.

    To some this sport is strictly about making money.  I don't give a rats *** about money.  Continuity of money with least effort possible is the key for me.  I don't look for brains any more than that...

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    @J Scott What is the price range of your Atlanta property? And how much is the property tax rate? What does the rental number look like?

    I don't own any rentals in Atlanta anymore (I hate rentals and sold them all when I moved to Maryland).  But, here's the last rental I bought in Atlanta before leaving:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4255-Tenneyson-L...

    Purchased for $35K, put in about $8K in repairs and rented it for $925/month.  Neighborhood was great -- solid blue-collar B/B- area where I'd be perfectly comfortable with my wife walking around in a bikini at night.  :-) 

    We purchased this property for about $30K under market. Had I held it, I could have financed it at 75% LTV at 5% for 15 years with a local porfolio lender I worked with. COC would have been 25%+. I've found a bunch of these deals over the years...

    Wait, if you were into it for $43K, it was worth $65K, you got a mortgage for 75%, $48,750, and let's say you had $5,750 in closing costs total on the purchase an refi, how is that you had any cash into it at all? Why wasn't your COC return infinite (or meaningless)?

    This is what I shoot for, though seldom attain, and it plays a big role in whether I will flip a property or hold. In these cases buy-and-hold ROI outperforms flipping ROI, and would outperform appreciation ROI.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    The portfolio lender I worked with based their LTV on the cash invested in the deal (at least for the first 12 months). So, it was 75% of the $43K.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Terry Hershberger 

      you make excellent points and as a business owner you were or are well equipped to step into RE which is a business of being self employed and you run your own business with no one's help other than guidance from others and what you learn..

    And there is no question that one can make money in ANY market in the US  that's a fact.

    I know for me personally I have business in Portlandia and Charleston SC so those basically can't be any father apart.. And for me my flights are fine I always fly 1st class :). And stay at Hilton products..

    I think the big point with regard to regional investing is asset class's and the brand new investor that has never run a business they have been a w-2 employee, so just do your job get paid etc.. Where with many in this industry and my self included I have never once in my 40 years of working had a w-2 job.. With the exception of a bag Boy at Food Villa in Cupertino CA circa 1971...

    So  what happens is because the coasts are so expensive IE New York area and CA by and large and the Mid west is dirt cheap by comparison you have a legion of new investors that are influenced by what they see on TV hear from Friends etc etc that the way to get rich is with Real Estate. And by default because of this phenomenon of Turn Key investing were the owners of these companies take the product to the West and East coast and to Austrialia and Hong Kong and London and Singapore... those opportunities are sold to investors that are really least equipped to handle these type's of assets right out of the gate.  So for everyone like you who has succeed far a field or like myself that has had success out of state there are just as many if not more that have had a very bad experience and lost money and quit.. It happened also in CA and Vegas and everywhere else in the GFC I know I got my rear handed to me through those times.. However just the nature of the asset class's vis a vi where many Turn Key and other wholesalers work compared to the more expensive areas are just really tough to take on if your not fully prepared to do so and you have an illusion that a sales and marketing company has sold you on.

     Unfortunately those that do well at the business which is most of us from what I can see we all like to talk about it.. those that failed well you don't see any threads or very few ( there was one this weekend of a guy underwater and trashed house etc what do I do) but generally those investors just slink  away into the night never to buy RE again. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @J Scott 

      Ah yes Atlanta great memories of those style of homes.. I bought a few that were never lived in for less than 50k .. it was just insane.. Also houses without garages was a new concept for me as well.

    My new build in Charleston I did not build a garage ( its an Extra) and it sold in a week with no mention.. in our market here in PDX you must have covered off street parking :)

    I do believe Atlanta because of what the hedges did and the heard mentality has basically topped out... price's are back or close to pre crash in many areas.. And there are builders that loaded up on lots for 1 to 5k finished form 09 to 2012.. And with prices were they are can build new construction that will compete well with existing... we all now the key word in RE  NEXT 

    I like cash flow RE if I can own it free and clear. not a big fan anymore of leveraging to my eye balls just because I can...With the exception of construction loans of course.

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    12y

    I have buildings in Chicago where I have already seen solid equity gains just from market appreciation.  I also invest out of state in a cash flow market.  I could sell 1 of my Chicago buildings today and use that money to buy cash flow buildings out of state and retire.  I still won't do it.  I know my Chicago buildings will be worth way more down the road then my out of state ones.  Plus I like the balance of having both.  

  • Investor · Waynesville, NC · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 121 votes
    12y

    This is a great thread with a lot of valuable input. I personally want both sides of the coin for diversification. I own a hand full of low price rentals (13 doors) and like them for the cash flow. They will never appreciate into anything great, but they can get me closer to financial freedom.

    I also like to flip houses and make big chunks at a time. My eventual plan is to live off of rental income and flip or spec build to create wealth.

  • Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2011 · 227 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs , Thanks. Yes TV gurus are just for entertainment. I wish everyone would realize that.

    Also, I do not buy Turn Key properties. I like to make money when I buy too. So obviously, we rehab what is necessary. 

    I have seen just as many people LOSE in RE right here in my own back yard in California that live here. I believe that PROER  EDUCATION is the key to SUCCESS, no matter where you invest. KNOWLEDGE is key to eliminate RISK. I believe that if you can not manage a property far away, you should not be investing 30 yards form your home either. Yes, maybe because it is close it may be easier to manage, but without knowing what you are doing, you may lose it too. An older wise man taught me a valuable lesson in my 20's: "A fool and his money will soon part."

    So yes, I believe Proper Knowledge comes first. Then invest where it makes sense for you and live where you want to be. It's a big game called LIFE, Live to WIN. To many try to live not to lose and in the end they do lose. I do believe it is harder to lose if you buy for cash flow rather than buying for appreciation. Appreciation is speculating and we all know what happened to most investors in California in the last down turn that kept banking on appreciation. Many are still laying in a corner licking their wounds.

    Happy Investing!

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Wait a second...I give a single example of a house I purchased below market and then resold and you believe it "proves" that wealth can only be made by doing that particular thing?  

    Sorry. Jumped the gun. Not a proof then. But I have never seen a real life example of anyone building wealth via the drip dropping of rental cash flow. Some on this thread said they did well via cash flow are in fact like you, bought way below market. To me that's just another form of appreciation: delta between property value at two time points. Rent could have been zero and that would not negate your big gain.

    So anyone has built >1M net worth in <=4 unit buildings thru drip dropping of rental income? How did you do it and in which markets? Theory is good but I'd love to see some real examples.

    For multifamily property value is tied to cash flow. So there is not a big divide there. But still investors have the choice of buying a 4 cap building in Silicon Valley vs a 15 cap in some unknown Midwestern town. 

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/madison-heights/dequindre-rd/#overview

    Median price $127,000  Please show a $20,000 property.

     That was last year, as I said. The cheapest one I see listed now is $34,900. And it's the only one that cheap. Again, it was the cheapest one in the city. Why should I pay full price for a house if I don't have to? A buddy of mine bought his first house for $20,000 in Madison Heights this year, but it was a private sale from a landlord, and it needs work. He is a licensed contractor and master plumber, so he will do everything.

    $20,000 is actually cheap for Pontiac as well. I don't like to pay full price for anything I buy.

    Please show a $20,000 property that will sell for 2.4 times the gross rents.

     Here is the last one I bought:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/163-Legrande-Ave...

    I believe that it could sell for 2.4 times the gross rents. It is currently rented for 694 per month, as determined by the housing commission. It was a short sale. The previous owner lived in the home. It needed only minor work, including siding repair, painting, concrete porch repair, hard wired smoke detectors, drywall near the chimney that was leaking, roofing tar, and one floor needed to be lightly sanded and stained. I also added a brick perimeter around the flower bed in front. My total investment is around $16,000.

     The sales subject still needs a couple of rent comps.  And a business reason why it would ONLY sell for 2.4 times.  If its because the rents are uncollectable or declining then I'm not interested.

     The listing agent believes it would sell for $30.000 on land contract. To be fair, this is an unusual deal. I would only sell it if I could immediately buy two additional homes with the proceeds.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2014 · 179 posts · 54 votes
    12y

    I heard a Blackstone MD talk a few months back in an MBA class with a guest lecturer.

    The MD of the largest owner of SFR in the nation had a few things to say about the nearly $3.0b investment they deployed in the past couple of years. First, he talked mainly about the fundamentals--supply and demand. He posited the nation needed about 3.0m housing starts annually to fulfill growing demand; household growth, obsolescence, etc. With the nation hovering around only 1.0m of housing starts annually, the supply demand curve pointed towards continued upward pressure on prices. These are micro-economic considerations which drove their analysis and not pro-forma cash flows. Clearly there are localized markets and pressures / externalities, but he laid out the general business case: buy in underperforming and distressed markets poised for growth with an exit strategy in five years. While they were able to leverage cash flows and issue the first RMBS deal secured by rental cash-flows in history, their strategy was one of growth in market prices within a short term and predictable time horizon. This may not put the debate to rest or provide any meaningful insight, but I thought it was an interesting anecdote to share.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2014 · 179 posts · 54 votes
    12y

    A very interesting real-estate finance class indeed. For all those BP'rs on the boards that earned their MBA on the streets and don't advocate for a formal education--I have to say it would be hard to overstate the impact it can make in a professional career (real-estate or otherwise). The very next week after hearing this Blackstone MD talk, the prez of the Related Companies (whose bosses name is on the b-school) came and spoke for 2 hours about their Hudson Yard project-- the largest private real-estate development in the history of the US. Very exciting!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    If I could invest for spectacular gains via appreciation I would.  But I probably am not going to do that any more than I'm going to be able to consistently cherry pick the best stocks when they are at their nadir and sell when they are at their zenith.

    If flips always outperformed buy-and-holds, that is all I would do.  But I can't seem to come buy a consistent flow of flips.  That means my investment funds are sometimes sitting on the sideline earning 0%.  (As an aside, flips are work, too.)  Some deals may provide me great equity but may not be easy to flip (for instance, paint and carpet rehabs that may take too long to sell).  I can cash-out refi and get better return on cash left into the property than with a flip.

  • Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2011 · 227 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    @Manch Hon , Can you explain this question you asked? So anyone has built >1M net worth in <=4 unit buildings thru drip dropping of rental income?

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Terry Hershberger:

    @Manch Hon , Can you explain this question you asked? So anyone has built >1M net worth in <=4 unit buildings thru drip dropping of rental income?

    So OP's question is whether one can build meaningful wealth via cashflow. I took the liberty of defining "wealth" to be over 1 million. Multifamily appreciation is much tighter linked to its cashflow so I restrict the question to 1-4 unit properties. 

    All the examples people gave so far are of the "I bought this great deal at under market value and rehab it" type. This to me is just another form of appreciation. They are not collecting the $100 or $200 per door to become millionaires.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 139 posts · 89 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    All the examples people gave so far are of the "I bought this great deal at under market value and rehab it" type. This to me is just another form of appreciation. 

    I'm less qualified than most on this thread to comment, not that will stop me, but I don't agree that that counts as appreciation. Appreciation an increase of value over time of an asset. Property doesn't suddenly appreciate when you buy it under value. It's worth the same a minute after you close as it was the minute before, it's just that you bought smart. ("Just", ha! All of us could get rich if we could consistently buy dollar bills for seventy cents, even with moderate inflation -- which is essentially depreciation).

  • Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2011 · 227 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    @Manch Hon Ok, so I must answer your question then. YES!

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 225 posts · 91 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:

    All the examples people gave so far are of the "I bought this great deal at under market value and rehab it" type. This to me is just another form of appreciation. They are not collecting the $100 or $200 per door to become millionaires.

    Yes. No one is becoming a millionaire just by this.

    But with buy and hold:

    1) If you finance correctly then your "fixed costs" are just that... fixed. (The TI portion of course is not. But the PI portion is). Rents will go up over time so that your cash flow will increase.

    2) For the PI portion, you will gain equity through mortgage paydown. And this gain will accelerate over time.

    3) Even for the most cash flow-centric areas, I would expect some modest (1%? 2? 3?) appreciation due to inflation. If this is not happening (I see you there, Detroit) then something else is going on that should concern the investor. This compounding over time in combination with #2 does matter.

    4) Given 2 and 3, the investor will have various options after X years to change the portfolio. (Re-leverage and acquire or de-leverage and hold.)

    5) If you work a J.O.B. buy and hold provides substantial tax advantages which should not be discounted in the analysis.

    #1 is bit more tricky now with all the financing changes. (Go back and read some old style REI books. "Getting in" was all that mattered and there were MANY ways to get that done with minimal down payment.

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    The biggest thing with cash flow is that in order to turn it into wealth, you have to invest it. Simply put, I reinvest everything I earn in rental income. At that point it increases your wealth. Seems simple enough to me.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Terry Hershberger:

    @Manch Hon Ok, so I must answer your question then. YES!

     To get full credit you have to show your work. 

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:
    Originally posted by @Terry Hershberger:

    @Manch Hon , Can you explain this question you asked? So anyone has built >1M net worth in <=4 unit buildings thru drip dropping of rental income?

    So OP's question is whether one can build meaningful wealth via cashflow. I took the liberty of defining "wealth" to be over 1 million. Multifamily appreciation is much tighter linked to its cashflow so I restrict the question to 1-4 unit properties. 

    All the examples people gave so far are of the "I bought this great deal at under market value and rehab it" type. This to me is just another form of appreciation. They are not collecting the $100 or $200 per door to become millionaires.

     $100 to $200 per month isn't insignificant, depending on how many units are owned. Some people get more than that. If one house can generate $5000 per year in cash flow, then only 100 houses are needed to earn half of 1M per year.. Cash flow will lead to a high net worth, provided it is reinvested into purchasing additional units and not spent otherwise.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:
    Sorry. Jumped the gun. Not a proof then. But I have never seen a real life example of anyone building wealth via the drip dropping of rental cash flow.
    ....
    Theory is good but I'd love to see some real examples.

    I provided a very realistic scenario (in my buying areas, at least) earlier in this thread, where the math indicated that holding for cash flow for 15 years provided at least the same return as your scenario, which involved buying for appreciation and holding for 15 years.

    Nobody has refuted the math I provided. To me -- again, as an engineer -- the math is a lot more meaningful than one-off examples. The math doesn't lie. Yes, it requires buying under market value in order to maximize leveraged cash flow (even ignoring gains from equity), but I'd find it hard to believe anyone buying for appreciation isn't targeting below market value properties as well. I'm guessing none of you are telling your realtors to just go out and buy any random property off the MLS at list price. And buying well-priced assets is something most wealthy investors have probably done to achieve their wealth.

    Now, the reason you probably haven't anyone stand up and proclaim they're an example is that many of us who buy in these areas have chosen to buy-and-resell the past several years as opposed to buy-and-hold. While 20% COC returns are nice, I've seen much higher returns by flipping houses in these markets the past several years. If I didn't hate holding rentals as much as I do, I'd probably be a perfect example.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 160 posts · 167 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:

     $100 to $200 per month isn't insignificant, depending on how many units are owned. Some people get more than that. If one house can generate $5000 per year in cash flow, then only 100 houses are needed to earn half of 1M per year.. Cash flow will lead to a high net worth, provided it is reinvested into purchasing additional units and not spent otherwise.

    I totally get the theory. But want to know if anyone has successfully used this strategy to accumulate significant wealth. There are all those gotchas in real life that one only knows thru practice. 

    Some people in this thread raised some interesting questions. For example, if one buys in low-priced places that cash flow immediately, how is the tenant quality? Are thefts and petty crimes an issue? Will cap-ex like replacing roofs eat away a lot of your cash flow etc etc. 

    If you have successfully used this strategy, speak up. We all want to learn from your experience.

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Manch Hon:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:

     $100 to $200 per month isn't insignificant, depending on how many units are owned. Some people get more than that. If one house can generate $5000 per year in cash flow, then only 100 houses are needed to earn half of 1M per year.. Cash flow will lead to a high net worth, provided it is reinvested into purchasing additional units and not spent otherwise.

    I totally get the theory. But want to know if anyone has successfully used this strategy to accumulate significant wealth. There are all those gotchas in real life that one only knows thru practice. 

    Some people in this thread raised some interesting questions. For example, if one buys in low-priced places that cash flow immediately, how is the tenant quality? Are thefts and petty crimes an issue? Will cap-ex like replacing roofs eat away a lot of your cash flow etc etc. 

    If you have successfully used this strategy, speak up. We all want to learn from your experience.

     I'm not a millionaire, but hope to accumulate that number of units eventually.

    Tenant quality in low income areas is lower, obviously. But there are tenants that have decent jobs. Section 8 is best for low income areas, but I won't hesitate to rent to tenants with enough income. I look for at least three times the rent in monthly income. The only other thing I look at is evictions. And I talk to the tenants to see if I like them or not, or if they say anything that raises red flags.

    Thefts can be an issue, depending on what area the house is in. I don't buy houses that are in a bad area, defined as missing copper or furnace, etc. Knocking on doors and talking to people is the best way to get to know a neighborhood. I also talk to my existing tenants about areas to get their opinion. Repairs are inescapable. A new roof can eat a few months rent or more, depending on who does the work. But a roof shouldn't be changed often.

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