Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Cashflow Doesn't Build Wealth?

Rental Property Investor · Las Palmas de Gran Canaria · Member since 2014 · 220 posts · 256 votes

While cashflow is key to keep the property safely under control, I seem to find that the larger returns for our portfolio to date come from strategic growth of equity. My wife and I are still fairly small in our investing business and I want to ask if the long-term seasoned investors have found the same to be true, especially in the larger multi families, where value is more closely tied.

Example: A Current Deal We Are Wrapping Up:

My partners and I bought a home in Santa Cruz, CA in May 2011 for 389k and remodeled it. After a cash out refi where we had 108k of our investment left in the deal. Rented the pre-tax profits were $6,840 annually. That is a 6.3% return cash on cash, which in our area is basically a freaking miracle of the crash. I was only expecting 2.8% in my original performa. Haven't seen any deals like that since 2012. The property is being sold and closes in 5 days. For the three+ years we owned it, we basically accumulated $22,550 in rental profits.

In those three years, we saw some serious appreciation. You could call me a speculator, but the indicators were there. A strong job market (thank you silicon valley), a major university, over 3 million tourist annually (to a town of 50k residents), major agricultural center, amazing natural resources / extreme sports meca, a world famous brand and limited room for growth. Houses in a good neighborhood were being sold below replacement cost. I'd call that a strategic acquisition with strong potential for growth. Forcing equity through a remodel provided a nice bit of padding.

We are selling the house for the equivalent of 640k. Net proceeds of the sale minus cash invested is 168k. That is 155% return on investment (37% compounded annualized return). 

Even if I had ended up with a 0% cash on cash, I would still be doing a happy dance. I don't see cashflow deals offering anything in the range of that return

I imagine there may be a day when we need to convert our equity into cashflow. At that point, we will probably pivot again. 

So What Do You Think?

Brandon / Josh often seem to call equity investors gamblers on the BP podcast (although they mostly seem to be warning newbies not to buy stupid), but for those of us looking to build wealth, who are willing to do careful homework, learn the markets, do the deal analysis and make careful strategic plays, make sure we are not upside down or outside our fiscal means, my experience to date says investing in strong equity growth markets, perhaps despite their poor cashflows, seems like the strong play.

Alright, bring on the arguments and tell me where I might be right or wrong (especially as we are moving our portfolio into the larger apartment complexes)!

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Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

I have a few dozen houses at any given time. As @Account Closed stated, one pile pays my bills and puts food on the table, the other pile is for horse trading. Your experience is EXACTLY why buying California property makes the most sense to me. People brag about their $300 cash flow from their dumpy *** $60,000 house out east of the Rockies. Really? I bought a few dozen houses back in 2009-2011. I'm now selling some of them off as they go vacant. The last house I recently sold, I paid $81,000 for it 4 years ago and just sold it for $274,900. On top of that phenomenal gain (approx $150K net), I collected $1,550/month rent from the same tenant all 4 years. 

Now, the naysayers be like "Well, that was the bottom of the market. That can't be done now!" 

I just closed on a nice Riverside house out by UCR. Paid $90K for it. My private lender wired $125K to escrow. I got a $28K refund check from escrow. (Read that as nontaxable income.) Property will rent for $1,700 when I'm done fixing it up. 

Have fun on your airplane ride and staying in Motel 8 naysayers.

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  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 225 posts · 91 votes
    12y

    A couple of quick questions for the appreciation gurus...

    Assuming this is NOT a personal residence play (which I DO love)...

    1) What cash flows (positive/negative how much per mont) are you accespting on day 1?

    2) What down payment are you putting in to achieve that cash flow?

    3) How are you retrieving your appreciation from the property?

    Thanks.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2014 · 179 posts · 54 votes
    12y

    I wish I could convince my wife the personal residence play, as it was called in this thread, was a great way to accumulate a nice coffer. When I mentioned I was looking for another lot to build a custom home in 3-5 years (rental in the interim) she did not seem too keen on the disruption this could cause young children (the same neighborhood and school no less).

  • Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 491 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs thanks for sharing your story!  Excellent example of understanding a trending market and taking advantage of it!  I hope to follow this model!

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Mark Whittlesey:

    A couple of quick questions for the appreciation gurus...

    1) What cash flows (positive/negative how much per mont) are you accespting on day 1?

    2) What down payment are you putting in to achieve that cash flow?

    3) How are you retrieving your appreciation from the property?

    Thanks.

    Mark,

    First of all, I'm not a guru by any stretch, but I know a little bit about residential and apartments.  To answer your questions:

    1) I was buying anything that was close to 0.8% - 1% rule during the downturn.  Some of them are now renting for 1.1% - 1.3% of my all in costs.  A huge thank to rental appreciation in the last couple of years.

    2) In general, 25% down payment.  Interest rates varied from 3.75% to 5% with 30-year fixed.  In some cases, they were bought with cash and about 95% to 100% of the equity was pulled out via cash-out refinance after seasoning.

    3) Earlier this year, I pulled out over $430k from 4 rental properties using cash-out refinance. In 2 cases, I was able to pull out 130% and 135% of my all-in costs, which include purchase, rehab, and closing costs.  

    In the last 12 months, we have syndicated 3 apartment buildings, where I'm part owner of 2. One building has a GRM over 9 now; one will have a GRM just over 10 by November 1st; and one gorgeous building on a beautiful street has a GRM of 11 after stabilized in March 2015. These buildings were financed with 3.0 to 3.05% interest, 5/1 ARM with 10-year balloon amortizes over 30 years.

    We're currently in negotiation to buy an off-market 13-unit apartment building for $1.8M - $2M.  The building needs about $350k - $400k worth of work.  Gosh, I hope we get it.      

  • Rental Property Investor · Liberty Hill, TX · Member since 2014 · 285 posts · 166 votes
    12y

    That is a very nice 4 acres Jay, I was looking at the 4 bedroom with 1.5 acres adjoining it.  Supposedly that re zone starts next month with completion next Spring.  You are sitting on a nice gold mine.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Am I to understand that there is some argument as to which is better or the fastest way or the less risky way or the most assured way to hit the first million dollar mark?

    Before you can begin to compare, you need a time line, are we saying the goal post is 5 years away, 10, 20, 30 or 40 years out? Or, does it matter that you reach your goal in 50 years?

    I mentioned the annuity income stream, that can't be argued by any educated person, it's math and finance 101.

    If you must make the point that your income will be from cash flow it's simple to estimate that from your CoC, if on the average you get 20% then in 5 years you'll recover your investment without reinvested income. What's the time to hit that goal? if it's 5 years most likely you have the million as the investment to begin with, if you leveraged in, you need more time or a higher return. I'd think that anyone getting 20% after taxes would be buying trash properties, slum lording as you won't be pulling that from a median or higher priced home without some special circumstances since rents closely tie to market value.

    If you're improving the property in any way, fix it, change use, change zoning, then much of that return is allocated to that increase in equity. If you choose wisely in a growing area where demand increases, you're income is again allocated to the equity increase. I don't know any investor (personally, not BP members) that doesn't speculate to some degree in every purchase, speculation is the assumption of increasing values. But an average price range needs to be stated to ascertain the amount of any leverage to find the costs to carry the asset, after taxes allowing the annuity income.

    It's rather silly to go through the motions, but if I have an average of 20% after taxes and all expenses, I can just buy 5 million in homes and wahla in five years I have a million. Where did you get your 5 million? You can stretch it out to 40 years if you like and do the math and you can prove it on paper, not in reality.

    There are influences beyond your control at play, the economy, vacancies, depreciation, wear and tear, market influences, your 20 year old property is now in less demand as it has aged and become dated. Are you going to rehab the place and start all over?

    I only know one investor that brought in a million in single family properties from rents and I'm not sure how long that actually took, but that was Carol Jones, a good friend of ours. She's retired and pretty much out of the business living in St. Louis, if you can get a hold of her biography it would be an excellent read, she was born dirt poor and she owned more real estate offices than most anyone on BP owns properties. 2nd largest agency in the state last I heard and that was years ago.

    She built the rentals, didn't really buy them but did starting out. Hundreds! Most were lower than median priced homes but in nice areas, neat and efficient. She stopped building, had enough of it and moved on, many are still under management and I believe most have been sold off.  Where did Carol say the money was? In the appreciation not in the income stream.

    Don't forget management activities, if you think you're going to sit back and wait for the mailman to bring you your paycheck while you sit on your tail and watch Oprah you're delusional. Having been at the wheel of overseeing more than 1,200 units not mentioning hundreds of privately held properties, if you get 50K in annual rents a year you earned it!  I'm not saying you can't earn more in management I'm saying 50K is about a fair salary for the poor guy running the show, that brings in a million in rents, he might make more but usually makes less. Take note too, if I have a million in rental income I'm not using a broker in some rental company I'd have a rental company and an employee, several actually. There is another fallacy going on in this thread leaving out the costs associated with numbers of properties to generate that kind of income, it's not just 120 times the cost of one unit, (if you have 120 units) the overhead grows too.

    So, back to my previous post, the time line is 7 to 10 years, you can go longer or for less time, after taxes you're ready to move on, take the appreciation, let the rents cover your trip getting there.

    There are exceptions, I bought a farm in town 14 years ago at 850K, the project of mixed units around 4.2 M, property, sold at 6.5M, net 1.1+M. Not many homeruns out there. Have another friend that has owned a couple hundred acres since dirt was invented, 0 basis probably, there is now a Hilton on it, a shopping center, up scaled apartments, office complex and more residential on the way. Upwards of 30M, would it be wise to sell it? Not anytime soon and that sprung up from inception in 6 years, 2 of which was fighting city hall.  But these are commercial deals, not residential SFDs.

    There is no easy way and it takes time, anyone who claims differently is playing you. The only way I know of to making money quickly is with a printing press and that's illegal too. To all those get rich quick types, thinking you don't need an education or learn the industry from the bottom up, good luck, if you make it, you'll be one of the very, very few. :)   

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Martin Scherer 

      Thanks,   I have had a few meetings with city planner and it looks like they are moving farily fast there is a developer that has the 50 acres to the south tied up and they are paying all the cost for the independent studies etc so they can get there parcel done and improved.. we are just running on the coat tails.

    And we were very lucky to be included .. We only made it by one parcel.. But we made it and well some day as you say it will indeed be a gold mine... But I could have bought a rental in the cash flow markets that might have netted me 3k a year so that would have been 60k to the good right now...  It was a risk reward play no doubt I could just as easily not made anything on this as you know how difficult Perc tests are in Lovely Sonoma county  :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley 

    there is a builder here in Oregon that owns well over 300 SFR's he did the same thing as your friend he would build a subdivision of say 20 homes lease option them all.. Some would pay off when the optionee perfected the deal most did not of course we all know how hard it is to convert lease options to actual sales.. But at the end the day he has a monster portfolio and I am sure has made 1 million plus in the rental bizz and probably much more as the asset he owns are worth low of 200 today to 300k each.

    I also ran into an old fellow in Indy who owned 800 doors.. and had little to no debt been in the rental business 50 plus years and was to old to keep going I made a run at it but he sold to a fellow church member and the last I heard that backfired on him.

    And since this SFR rental bizz is so mom and pop in the mid west an deep south I bet there are may others that own 100's of these and have made a million or more on cash flow only..

  • Real Estate Investor · Columbia, IL · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley Thanks for your honest to the point post Im just getting started in the active investing and it is easy to fall into the get rich quick hip. I come through Springfield now and again on my way to trout fishing I would love to take you to lunch one time to pick your brain.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Brent Ludwig 

      were do you Trout fish in the Midwest?

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2014 · 56 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    This is an interesting story -not particularly a reply to your post , and hardly likely to happen here in the US. But interesting nevertheless. 

    This happened in India with the family of a relative. This man, not very bright , and slightly hard of hearing, had a big passion for farming and agriculture. He had saved by a "chit" method, popular in India where you deposit monthly -He had made monthly deposits of a 1000 Rupees(approximately 17$ in today's terms , maybe 20-25 $ when he invested, 20 years ago.) At the end of the chit term he got a 100,000 Rupees with which bought some acres of land in an area called OMR , in the southern part of India, in Chennai and pursued his passion. Not a penny earned from it , but tasty mangoes and coconuts .

     He passed away a few years ago , and guess howmuch his daughter and son got selling a portion of it recently ? Hold your breath ..the equivalent of 16.5 Million dollars (yes $$$) EACH!!!! That's howmuch appreciation that part of the world saw a few years ago . Just saying ...I havent heard of anything like that happen anywhere else in the world! 

    The current prices stand at around 3.3 Million $ per acre where once it went for pittance, due to the IT boom 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    now that's appreciation, kids!

    In a Manhattan Milestone, a $1 Million Parking Space

    By MICHELLE HIGGINS 1:53 PM ET

    Sick of dents, dings and parking musical chairs? Parking spaces in a SoHo condo are selling for $1 million apiece.

  • Real Estate Investor · Columbia, IL · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs A couple places Lake Taneycomo, The White River both great brown and rainbows I even caught the grandslam on The White in under and hour. They aren't western mountain stream but the fishing is great and they are very beautful for scenery too.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Brent Ludwig 

      is that I AK               we are trout fishing nuts out here on the west coast.. I fish the Deschutes annually and Montana we caught a nice stone fly hatch this year on the bitterroot.

    And I do British Columbia for still water.. its fab up there.   make  it west some time you will not be disappointed.

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    The biggest problem is that it is hard to predict where one will see the greatest appreciation over the long term. In my lifetime, I have seen neighborhoods and areas go from A- to C+ as the housing became older, and the more affluent moved farther away into newer larger homes. Lower income people moved in to take their place. The crime went up, the schools became worse, the better businesses moved out.

    That is a very common scenario in the grand majority of this country. Nice neighborhoods do not stay nice forever. People like shiny new things. Even if I was to buy in the nice shiny new suburb where there is the most appreciation right now, in 40 years, that area could have gone through a decline. There are plenty of homes built in the 1970's and 1980's in Phoenix and Tucson that are in rough neighborhoods. When those homes were built, those areas weren't rough. 

    What sucks is seeing mansions from the 1920s located in areas that are now war zones. I know that things like that aren't common in places like California, but in Kansas City, Kansas, my hometown, there are mansions on Quindaro Blvd. one of the roughest neighborhoods in the area.

    If you had predicted when those mansions were built that the area would always be affluent, and you would see huge appreciation on your property over the next 100 years, you would have been very wrong.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Anthony Gayden 

    Not living in those markets I really don't know why that happens.. But for some reason it does in those mid west and rust belt towns... I was in Milwaukee this summer and I was going back to were I spent the summers at my Grandparents home in the mid 60's beautiful homes on beautiful streets same type of homes would be 600 to 2 mil in PDX 1 mil to 4 mil in Bay area yet they were beat up and you could tell low income..

    I really don't now why that happens in those markets... You get a little of that in Oakland CA.. don't know about LA   but it seems to be a mid west and rust belt issue best I can tell.

  • Tucson, AZ · Member since 2014 · 64 posts · 13 votes
    12y

    These are awesome points of view. Me personally, I am not an investor yet but when i red this it reminded me of the book Millionaire Mind. 

    It says something that the real wealthy don't purchase homes in the nice suburban "gated communities" were the developer makes a lot of very nice homes and determends how much that neighborhood is worth. The truly wealthy mindset looks for homes in appreciating good neighborhoods just  behind the fancy gated community where the developers decided that was a good place to build "expensive homes."

    IDK... it just goes back to the basics like Robert kiyosaki talks about. One assets class wont build wealth. A strong steady Cash flow used to buy paper assets, business assets and ultimately more real estate is the way to truly build wealth.

    "You don't see flippers in the Forbes 100 list"-Bigger Pockets Podcast

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 231 posts · 260 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Anthony Gayden 

    Not living in those markets I really don't know why that happens.. But for some reason it does in those mid west and rust belt towns... I was in Milwaukee this summer and I was going back to were I spent the summers at my Grandparents home in the mid 60's beautiful homes on beautiful streets same type of homes would be 600 to 2 mil in PDX 1 mil to 4 mil in Bay area yet they were beat up and you could tell low income..

    I really don't now why that happens in those markets... You get a little of that in Oakland CA.. don't know about LA   but it seems to be a mid west and rust belt issue best I can tell.

    I think it is more prevalent in the Midwest, because people want new if possible and there is always more land in these areas and since those metros are not too dense, it is often possible to commute from a little farther distance without too much hassle.

    This used to happen in LA too.  Then when we ran out of land and commutes from the far off suburbs became too difficult and expensive.  Now inner city neighborhoods are showing new life.  

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Jay, yes, in time you can acquire enough doors to have a M, my point, your assets will be greater than the income they produced. Exceptions, I could buy with 100% financing, have very little in a place and rent it for more than the PITI/M/V/Management allocated for the pain of it all, rarely happens around here.

    As to trout, several types at Bennett Springs, state hatchery, also trout in Taneycomo, the White River basins, folks come from all over the world to go trout fishing in this area. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you're right, it is beautiful north of the 48th, love the smell of pines in the morning dew and brisk air. :)  

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Anthony Gayden 

    Not living in those markets I really don't know why that happens.. But for some reason it does in those mid west and rust belt towns... I was in Milwaukee this summer and I was going back to were I spent the summers at my Grandparents home in the mid 60's beautiful homes on beautiful streets same type of homes would be 600 to 2 mil in PDX 1 mil to 4 mil in Bay area yet they were beat up and you could tell low income..

    I really don't now why that happens in those markets... You get a little of that in Oakland CA.. don't know about LA   but it seems to be a mid west and rust belt issue best I can tell.

    We know why it happens, but there is nothing to say that it won't happen in other areas in the future. It can indeed happen in Portland or the Bay area too, just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it isn't possible.

    Like I said, there are some areas of Phoenix and Tucson that were developed in the 1970's and 1980's and were the new nice suburban areas back then, but have devolved into Class C neighborhoods of lower income residents. That isn't to say that you would not have received some sort of appreciation over that time period, but it certainly is not the area that one bought 30+ years ago. Many of the middle class families have moved farther away.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

      Not sure I agree with what the rich do or how profitable flippers are... Although If you follow some of Will Bernards flips ( does high end like your talking about) he is knocking down major profits on these deals. Same with Flippers of high end in the Bay Area now.  And Now this is before the crash  many were building specs in La Quinta I the best subdivisions that were gated private and exclusive.. profits in those deals were 500 to 2 million each.. selling 3 to 5 million dollar homes to those who could afford those for second homes.. And I was on a Cruise in the Med once and had dinner with a high end builder from Florida who was doing the same thing 2 to 4 mil homes making 500k each.. It cycles for sure but if you catch the cycle the right in 5 years of flipping these kind of deals you could be retired and not have to ever deal with the three t's.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    This phenomena is almost always a product of readily having more land to build "bigger and better" in the next subdivision. It also happened to urban cities post WW2 as people flocked to the burbs.  But now many inner cities are getting revitalized for many reasons. 

    Thats why I never invested in boom/bust markets like AZ and NV. It's hard to predict when and where this will happen, especially if you don't live there. 

    The Bay Area is a different story. Everything, literally, is getting gentrified. Tech is a huge, huge driver, and it isn't going away anytime soon. No where to (significantly) build for over 30 years in the Bay Area also was a big factor. This is markedly different from boom/bust states. 
    ----------

    Originally posted by @Anthony Gayden:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Anthony Gayden 

    Not living in those markets I really don't know why that happens.. But for some reason it does in those mid west and rust belt towns... I was in Milwaukee this summer and I was going back to were I spent the summers at my Grandparents home in the mid 60's beautiful homes on beautiful streets same type of homes would be 600 to 2 mil in PDX 1 mil to 4 mil in Bay area yet they were beat up and you could tell low income..

    I really don't now why that happens in those markets... You get a little of that in Oakland CA.. don't know about LA   but it seems to be a mid west and rust belt issue best I can tell.

    We know why it happens, but there is nothing to say that it won't happen in other areas in the future. It can indeed happen in Portland or the Bay area too, just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it isn't possible.

    Like I said, there are some areas of Phoenix and Tucson that were developed in the 1970's and 1980's and were the new nice suburban areas back then, but have devolved into Class C neighborhoods of lower income residents. That isn't to say that you would not have received some sort of appreciation over that time period, but it certainly is not the area that one bought 30+ years ago. Many of the middle class families have moved farther away.

  • Real Estate Investor · Columbia, IL · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs  The White River is in Arkansas. I have fished Alaska twice and loved it but getting out west is at the top of my list of spots to fish as soon as I can I really want to hit Montana. I love to catch anything that swims on a fly.

  • Investor · Columbus, GA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Let me sample some Kiyosaki for you. 

    Being rich is measured in dollars.  If you make $1M per year, you are rich.  If you stop working, you stop making money.

    Wealth is measured in time. How long can you live comfortably without working? (wholesaling, flipping, and rehabbing is work).  If your answer is indefinitely, then you are wealthy.  If you have to keep flipping property to live well, you are not wealthy.

  • Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 38 posts · 7 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs 

    @Curt Davis 

    Why cant a out of state investor win in such markets, even with good property management?

    Originally posted by @Curt Davis:

    I can vouch and say with certainty that no out of state investor will win long term on homes in the $35k range. It's hard enough for locals to make it work. 

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