Help me understand the advantage of multi's

Help me understand the advantage of multi's

Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I frequently hear/read that large multifamily properties (i.e., apartment complexes) produce better returns than SFH or small multifamily (2-4 units) properties. I just can't see it in the numbers, as I can figure them. When asking why large multis are better than SFH I've gotten responses such as 'economies of scale', meaning maintenance and property management are cheaper when done in large numbers and at a single location. However, if I'm not mistaken, cap rates take these expenses into account, and cap rates under 10% just don't look like good deals to me, in comparison to SFH returns (at least those I have access to). Please tell me if you think my analysis below is on track, or if it is mistaken somewhere.

Let's say we look at every $100,000 of property value of a MFH compared to SFH. If an apartment complex is at a cap rate of 8%, this means net operating income (gross income - operating expenses) =$8000/year. This comes out to $667/month for every $100K of property value. Say the debt service is $550/month (80% LTV, 5.5% interest, 20 year amortization), that leaves net income of around $117/month. I also believe the calculation to this point does not include capital expenditures. This $117/month – capex isn't very impressive, compared to the return I'd expect from a $100K SFH purchase.

A positive aspect of MFH can be forced appreciation, that is, renovating etc. to be able to raise rents and property value. Let's say rehab is done so as to allow a 25% increase in rents (e.g. from $800/mo to $1000/mo), so as to increase cash flow by $200/month, that takes you to $317/month - capex. That is an improvement, but still something achievable with a $100K SFH that you rehab (e.g. BRRR). The rehabbed MFH will now have a greater resale value (due to the increased rents), but so will the rehabbed SFH. One positive with the SFH route is that by using the BRRR strategy you can refinance and pull all your cash (or more) back out quickly, rather than having to wait for the time it takes to rehab an apartment complex before refinancing or selling (which is an opportunity cost).

Some might say a benefit of purchasing an apartment complex is the time savings of being able to make a single purchase (for example) of $2M, rather than 20 purchase of $100K SFH. However, it seems to me that the process of finding, negotiating, doing due diligence etc. for a $2M apartment complex may not be much less than that of purchasing 20 SFH.

Another advantage I've heard claimed about MFH is that if you have 40 apartments, one or two vacancies don't hurt your cash flow that much, compared to having a vacancy in a single SFH. In this case an appropriate comparison would actually be having one or two vacancies out of 20 SFH (or whatever number would equal the value of the MFH used in the example), which wouldn't be that bad.

I can see there being an ego boost in buying an apartment complex, which could make someone feel like ‘one of the big boys’, but I just don’t see it in the numbers. I keep looking for the big advantage of large MFH, but haven’t been able to see it in the numbers. What am I missing?

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Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y

Hi @Eric James

Those are great observations you have made. However, I had 10 single family condos here in San Diego cash flowing at about $50,000 a year. Next, 1031 exchanged them for apartment complexes in NE Ohio. Now I have $160,000 in cash flow and have exponentially increased the value, by repositioning value plays, David Lindahl style. A few of these apartment complexes I have owned for less than 2 years and have increased the NOI dramatically, increasing the value of the property and NOT being at the mercy of comps.

Don't get me wrong, I have made a few mistakes, but now I have learned my lesson and have some really nice value plays that we are in the middle of repositioning and that cash flow should continue to rise. I just signed an LOI for another 34 units, about $8,000 a unit under market too.

I would read David Lindahl's Multifamily Millions book.  It was extremely helpful to me!!

Swanny

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  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y

    That’s great @Chase Gochnauer  you are hustling man. Let’s connect!

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Also when the OP talks about anticipating a $100k SFH making more than a $100k MFH I do believe that has to do with PM fees as others have mentioned. You'll be hard pressed to find a turn key SFH that's going to realistically make you much over an 8 cap with a PM factored in.

    Did someone mention turnkey SFH? I must have missed that.

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    I have 135 or so units. 71 in a recently acquired apartment complex, 12 plex, 8 Plex, and remainder are duplex or SFH. I have about 30-40 SFH in there I've BRRRd the last 2 years. The main advantage I see for the large multi family is scalability. Its much easier to grow quickly in larger multifamily. 

    No doubt for big operators one can scale faster to buy MFH. At the same time, the fact that you BRRR'd 30-40 over the last 2 years, not even spending all your time on these shows that SFH can be scaled relatively quickly of one wants to (though not hundreds at a time).

  • Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    No but you were comparing returns on buying an apartment to using the same money to buy a SFH. I don't know that it's fair to compare the return on buying a large apartment complex(usually turn key as it'll typically be 90-95% occupied even if there is an opportunity for a value add) to the return on buying a house that needs rehabbed and then rented. To me the fair comparison would be comparing returns on buying an apartment complex and a rent ready house. I don't know that you can find a rent ready house with significantly higher cap rate than a multifamily complex.
  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    No but you were comparing returns on buying an apartment to using the same money to buy a SFH. I don't know that it's fair to compare the return on buying a large apartment complex(usually turn key as it'll typically be 90-95% occupied even if there is an opportunity for a value add) to the return on buying a house that needs rehabbed and then rented.

    To me the fair comparison would be comparing returns on buying an apartment complex and a rent ready house. I don't know that you can find a rent ready house with significantly higher cap rate than a multifamily complex.

    In that comparison I would agree with you. It's just that I would never buy a turnkey SFH.

  • Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    Sorry I can't quote on the mobile app. Yes SFH can be scaled but it's a lot of work. BRRRing 30-40 SFH is going to be 10x the work of buying and operating a 71 unit in my experience. So it's just about whether all that extra work is worth the extra returns, which depends on the stage you're at in your investing career.
  • Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 893 votes
    8y

    I mean I could spout off the million advantages mentioned previously, but I think one that often goes overlooked but makes my life a lot easier is the reduced number of transactions you would have to go through to get to your "number". Even buying a simple 5 or 8 unit building requires less due diligence, financing work, negotiation, repair, etc... than purchasing the same number of SFR's.


    If your goal is to aggressively grow your passive income stream then eliminating the cycle time associated with many transactions will really help you stay on track. It certainly has for me.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I haven't seen this mentioned but how good is the liquidity on a 100 unit complex?  The liquidity on single family houses is pretty good right now!

    For investors with a lot of money to invest and no need to divest, multifamily may be the way to go.  For those of us who do not have "bigger pockets" renovating and renting single family houses may be a better way to increase equity and grow a business.

  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    There are some marked differences as you already mentioned and some folks have stated. 

    Interestingly, I think most people are naturally inclined to a pick of a method of investing that suits their personality. A friend of mine is totally ok with his small mixed-use properties and flipping a few homes/year, making great returns. However, he will shy away from the 150-units deals because he says he is no interest in becoming the next big developer/investor with 100 employees and offices across the country.

    I bring this point up to highlight that some of us have an intrinsic style of investing and don't see investments the same way regardless of mathematical conclusions. 

    Just a different take on this I guess. 

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Sorry I can't quote on the mobile app. Yes SFH can be scaled but it's a lot of work. BRRRing 30-40 SFH is going to be 10x the work of buying and operating a 71 unit in my experience. So it's just about whether all that extra work is worth the extra returns, which depends on the stage you're at in your investing career.

    If you buy a value add MFH are you able to refinance quickly based on the new value? A concern I would have at this stage would be getting stuck with my capital in the property for an extended period of time (vs. BRRR).

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric James

    HI Eric

    It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with the numbers. Cost segregation is probably one of the best reasons to buy apartments (ever heard of a guy named Trump not paying taxes).  If you want to build a business, you can hire maintenance and leasing agents.

    If you have a duplex and one tenant leaves, your COC is basically gone for the year. The forced appreciation is also another huge component. We have refinanced over $7 million in the past 3 years, which is tax free. That is rather difficult to accomplish with SFH.

    I was taught by mentors to copy those you want to strive to become. Most wealthy investors are not purchasing SFH, they are in the commercial space, for those reasons I have mentioned above. Prices have definitely escalated the past few years, but there are still deals out there if you network with brokers.

    Hope that helps

    Gino

  • Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @John Woodrich:

    I haven't seen this mentioned but how good is the liquidity on a 100 unit complex?  The liquidity on single family houses is pretty good right now!

    For investors with a lot of money to invest and no need to divest, multifamily may be the way to go.  For those of us who do not have "bigger pockets" renovating and renting single family houses may be a better way to increase equity and grow a business.

    I would say pretty good. I can find SFH deals all day long but there's only a handful of complexes even for sale in my metro. Absolutely SFHs are the way to start when capital is a little tighter.

  • Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Sorry I can't quote on the mobile app. Yes SFH can be scaled but it's a lot of work. BRRRing 30-40 SFH is going to be 10x the work of buying and operating a 71 unit in my experience. So it's just about whether all that extra work is worth the extra returns, which depends on the stage you're at in your investing career.

    If you buy a value add MFH are you able to refinance quickly based on the new value? A concern I would have at this stage would be getting stuck with my capital in the property for an extended period of time (vs. BRRR).

    I'll be honest I've never refi'd after a value add on a large MFH but I don't see it being a problem. You may have a problem if you're using one of the Freddie/Fannie programs, but if you're working with a local lender, then I don't see an issue as long as it appraises. You'd just have to have it long enough to show stable, increased rents. I have a 12 plex I'll be doing it on soon, and don't foresee an issue. The only challenge is that it takes longer than a SFH. I can buy/rehab/rent a SFH in just a couple/few months versus it may take a year for a larger property to get each unit upgraded and re-rented for a higher price.

    My 71 unit I purchased though, while there is some value add, I don't see it being something I refinance right away unless I goto the Freddie Mac small business loan program.

  • Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Gino Barbaro:

    @Eric James

    HI Eric

    It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with the numbers. Cost segregation is probably one of the best reasons to buy apartments (ever heard of a guy named Trump not paying taxes).  If you want to build a business, you can hire maintenance and leasing agents.

    If you have a duplex and one tenant leaves, your COC is basically gone for the year. The forced appreciation is also another huge component. We have refinanced over $7 million in the past 3 years, which is tax free. That is rather difficult to accomplish with SFH.

    I was taught by mentors to copy those you want to strive to become. Most wealthy investors are not purchasing SFH, they are in the commercial space, for those reasons I have mentioned above. Prices have definitely escalated the past few years, but there are still deals out there if you network with brokers.

    Hope that helps

    Gino

     Yes! Cost segregation is HUGE for tax savings and just got a huge boost with the new tax plan. 

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Chase Gochnauer

    Hi Chase

    Knowledge + action= power!

    Gino

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Originally posted by @Gino Barbaro:

    @Eric James

    HI Eric

    It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with the numbers. Cost segregation is probably one of the best reasons to buy apartments (ever heard of a guy named Trump not paying taxes).  If you want to build a business, you can hire maintenance and leasing agents.

    If you have a duplex and one tenant leaves, your COC is basically gone for the year. The forced appreciation is also another huge component. We have refinanced over $7 million in the past 3 years, which is tax free. That is rather difficult to accomplish with SFH.

    I was taught by mentors to copy those you want to strive to become. Most wealthy investors are not purchasing SFH, they are in the commercial space, for those reasons I have mentioned above. Prices have definitely escalated the past few years, but there are still deals out there if you network with brokers.

    Hope that helps

    Gino

     Yes! Cost segregation is HUGE for tax savings and just got a huge boost with the new tax plan. 

    The problem with a Cost Segregation study is that you will run into issues if you decide to 1031 the property.  You can only exchange real property for real property - a Cost Seg study breaks out personal property and now you may have a lot of boot (taxable gain)....  They can be great but I think there are some issues when you combine it with the idea of a 1031...  They make great sense for operating companies who own their building, I don't see a lot of these on apartment buildings.  In the end it is usually a large timing difference but it can be substantial for many clients.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric James there is advantage in scale, but scale is also beneficial in SFH or in flipping or in any business.

    - Acquisition time and cost is more efficient with MFH. It takes about the same time and effort to buy a 20 unit MFH as it does to buy one SFH. One loan for 20 units versus multiple loans for SFH. The exception to this for SFH is if you are able to purchase a portfolio of SFH from another investor.

    - Concentration advantage of MFH is that geographically your units are concentrated. Lets say you have 20 units and two tenants report repair issue. You can send a handyman to repair both issues on the same call. If you have two houses with issues, there is travel time in between. This becomes an even larger advantage in big apartment complex. Maybe you have hundreds of units in a complex, so that scale allows you to hire on-site management. Concentration also helps in other areas like rent collection.

    - The vacancy claim is a little weaker. I have owned duplex that had total rent of $1200 and single family homes with $1200 rent. Although vacancy may may cost less on the duplex ($600), it happens twice as often. I end up with double the turn-over costs and the same vacancy costs. Of course if you own a 40 unit MFH versus 20 unit SFH, either way you are not going to feel similar vacancy pain if a couple units are empty. MFH doesn't have advantage over SFH in this area, assuming both are scaled. People move, so vacancy is vacancy.

    - Divesting yourself of SFH can be much easier than MFH. You can sell SFH to either investors or individuals looking for their personal home. The difference on MFH is that you can only sell it to investors, which means in some markets it can take much longer to sell. Of course if you have 200 SFH, that could take much more effort than selling one 200 unit MFH complex.

    - I know some people argue MFH is one roof versus SFH is multiple roofs, which is true but keep in mind the roof is usually bigger. It is not fair to say that a 4-plex roof costs the same as a SFH roof, but the per unit cost definitely works out less. Many other things in SFH and MFH measure up the same. Stove, fridge, dishwasher, etc, are all 1:1 per MF unit or SFH.

    - One advantage of SFH is that you can eliminate inter-tenant issues. Nobody is stomping on the floor upstairs. One bad tenant in a MFH can drive out other good tenants. SFH isolates bad tenants, so they don't contaminate the other tenants.

    The popular slogan here on BP is that more doors is better. I personally try to optimize dollars per door. I don't need more tenants, I need more cash flow. I would rather have ten tenants that cash flowed $1,000 per month versus having 100 tenants cash flowing $100 per month. 

    Keep in mind scale isn't always as wonderful as it sounds. Say you scale your business and own multiple large apartment complex. Hundreds of units under management and you have 20 employees reporting to you. Is that your vision for your future? I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there is a difference between "chasing more" and "having enough". More is a never ending chase. Enough is the amount it takes to reach your goals.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Originally posted by @Eric James:
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Sorry I can't quote on the mobile app. Yes SFH can be scaled but it's a lot of work. BRRRing 30-40 SFH is going to be 10x the work of buying and operating a 71 unit in my experience. So it's just about whether all that extra work is worth the extra returns, which depends on the stage you're at in your investing career.

    If you buy a value add MFH are you able to refinance quickly based on the new value? A concern I would have at this stage would be getting stuck with my capital in the property for an extended period of time (vs. BRRR).

    I'll be honest I've never refi'd after a value add on a large MFH but I don't see it being a problem. You may have a problem if you're using one of the Freddie/Fannie programs, but if you're working with a local lender, then I don't see an issue as long as it appraises. You'd just have to have it long enough to show stable, increased rents. I have a 12 plex I'll be doing it on soon, and don't foresee an issue. The only challenge is that it takes longer than a SFH. I can buy/rehab/rent a SFH in just a couple/few months versus it may take a year for a larger property to get each unit upgraded and re-rented for a higher price.

    My 71 unit I purchased though, while there is some value add, I don't see it being something I refinance right away unless I goto the Freddie Mac small business loan program.

    Freddie/Fannie have a built in "supplemental loan" feature that facilitates getting the cash out.  You don't have to re-finance.

    Eric, yeah your capital is tied up in ONE property while the PM is turning units and you are on the beach...or looking for the next property...instead of you spending that time finding and turning 40 individual homes.

    I did a lot of work up front finding the right PM and putting the re-positioning plan in place but now only spend 2 hours a month reviewing the financials...also get a weekly email update.

    It does not appear that you want to understand the benefits of MF.  It appears that you are making a statement instead.  In the end, they are both excellent strategies (and I have both).

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Thanks everyone. I'm interested in MFH, but cautious due to a few factors such as low cap rates and having my capital tied up for an extended period of time. In the end, I think it likely that I may try purchasing a small one in a year or two. Probably a small one (8-20 units) unless I partner with someone.

  • Yonah WeissPro Member
    Cost Segregation Expert and Investor · Lakewood, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @John Woodrich:
    Originally posted by @Chase Gochnauer:
    Originally posted by @Gino Barbaro:

    @Eric James

    HI Eric

    It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with the numbers. Cost segregation is probably one of the best reasons to buy apartments (ever heard of a guy named Trump not paying taxes).  If you want to build a business, you can hire maintenance and leasing agents.

    If you have a duplex and one tenant leaves, your COC is basically gone for the year. The forced appreciation is also another huge component. We have refinanced over $7 million in the past 3 years, which is tax free. That is rather difficult to accomplish with SFH.

    I was taught by mentors to copy those you want to strive to become. Most wealthy investors are not purchasing SFH, they are in the commercial space, for those reasons I have mentioned above. Prices have definitely escalated the past few years, but there are still deals out there if you network with brokers.

    Hope that helps

    Gino

     Yes! Cost segregation is HUGE for tax savings and just got a huge boost with the new tax plan. 

    The problem with a Cost Segregation study is that you will run into issues if you decide to 1031 the property.  You can only exchange real property for real property - a Cost Seg study breaks out personal property and now you may have a lot of boot (taxable gain)....  They can be great but I think there are some issues when you combine it with the idea of a 1031...  They make great sense for operating companies who own their building, I don't see a lot of these on apartment buildings.  In the end it is usually a large timing difference but it can be substantial for many clients.

    @John Woodrich, I believe the new ruling with the tax reform of 1031 not applying to 'personal property' only refers to that which is not part of real property (like a car, plane, etc.). But segregating out personal property from a building for depreciation purposes doesn't affect it's status of 'real property' for 1031. As far as I know, there is nowhere on any form, when performing a 1031 that you allocate personal property from within a building. Have you seen any rulings on this?

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric James I havef 10 of these SFHs and trying to unload them now cause they are a headache. Do the math.. You are going to need 30 of these to retire.

    WIth my 10 I have an eviction or two a year and a few big events happen. Being an LP in a syndication is the way to got for high net worth players.

  • Tampa, FL · Member since 2017 · 240 posts · 153 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:
    Originally posted by @Mike Dymski:

    Hey Eric.  Well written post.

    Change your debt terms to 75% LTV, 5% or less interest rate, and 25-30 year amortization to have more accurate terms. My apartment loan is 4.375% with a 25 year amortization, as an example. The market standard for a Fannie/Freddie apartment loan has a 30 year amortization. And the debt is non-recourse.

    Cap ex for an apartment community is significantly less than SFRs. The standard required reserves under the Fannie/Freddie apartment loan programs are $250-350 per unit per year. Many investors will carry higher reserves than that but still nowhere near SFR levels/needs.

    Buying one 40 unit apartment community is a heck of a lot easier than buying 40 individual homes.  That's not up for debate.

    Raising rents $200/unit would be a home run.  Do that on a 40 units community and you just made a $1 million profit (minus rehab).  

    And you don't manage the rehab, the PM does it.  And it's conducted by affordable and professional vendors who specialize in apartments.  Flooring installed is under $1/sqft and painting is around $250/unit. The word efficiency does not do justice to the difference between apartment rehab/maintenance and SFR rehab/maintenance...it's using professional vendors who specialize in apartments, not contractors. And all the rehab is done at one location.

    Regarding the refinance, it's easier, not harder to get your capital out with an apartment.  You get a construction/perm loan and finance the rehab.  There are also supplement loan features built into commercial financing that allow cash out once the property has been re-positioned.

    The most important factor is the profit per property...profit per unit is not as relevant.  Many investors would rather have one 40 unit property that cash flows $6000 per month than twenty separate properties that cash flow the same.

    There are lots of strategies to make a profit in real estate and SFR and apartments are both excellent.

    4.375% IS a better rate than I get for SFH (4.79%), though I get it at 80% LTV and 30 year amortization.

    How long, on average, would it take you from starting your search to complete the purchase of a 40 unit MFH? With the same amount of capital as needed for the MFH purchase, I think I could buy, rehab, rent, refinance, and repeat with 30 SFH within a year or less. Also, at the end of that time I'd still have the same amount of (or more) seed capital on hand.

    I accept that all you wrote regarding lower costs for MFH is correct. Though, I'd suggest fewer than 40 SFH are equivalent to the cost of 40 apartments (maybe 25-30 SFH?). I don't know if refinancing a complex is 'easier' than for a SFH, but refinancing a SFH is quite easy (with local lenders who do not require seasoning).  

    However, your point regarding the efficiency of MFH would only seem to highlight the fact that MFH cost a lot of money to purchase, as they typically only have cap rate of 5-7%, despite their high efficiencies. 

    To me, I'd have to go more towards MFH as being the better and smarter bargain for many reasons. They also will pretty much always return more cash flow wise.

    I feel like you're getting too caught up in the numbers, rather than getting the big picture, which is to focus more on how great a deal is on a case by case basis. I don't care if it's a multifamily or single family home as long as the deal is way in my favor. To me, this is like the most important thing.

    I will say that refinancing and pulling money out of single family homes is easier with banks and whatnot, and they tend to have an element of better appreciation over time to counteract a number of cons. To each his own, but in general, if youre in it to win it, I'd say most of your deals at first have to be in the multifamily homes unless you find killer deals that are even better in the SFH segment in your area.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @John Woodrich, I believe the new ruling with the tax reform of 1031 not applying to 'personal property' only refers to that which is not part of real property (like a car, plane, etc.). But segregating out personal property from a building for depreciation purposes doesn't affect it's status of 'real property' for 1031. As far as I know, there is nowhere on any form, when performing a 1031 that you allocate personal property from within a building. Have you seen any rulings on this?

    This has always been a gray area in the code but if you read it black and white your personal property cannot be exchanged for real property.  Real property was always pretty vague but personal property has always been more strict.  Ie appliances could only be exchanged for appliances, not a new maintenance truck.  A truck could only be exchanged for another vehicle, etc.  

    I think the new code makes this area even more of a concern because in the past you would have some grounds to stand on when exchanging your personal property because the building you were purchasing also had personal property.  The new building was likely larger and even had more of it.

    I haven't had any clients audited on CSEG or 1031 exchanges nor have I seen any rulings.  In large transactions with a lot of property broken out it would be prudent for someone to see if there have been any recent cases involving 1031s and personal property.

  • Yonah WeissPro Member
    Cost Segregation Expert and Investor · Lakewood, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @John Woodrich:

    @John Woodrich, I believe the new ruling with the tax reform of 1031 not applying to 'personal property' only refers to that which is not part of real property (like a car, plane, etc.). But segregating out personal property from a building for depreciation purposes doesn't affect it's status of 'real property' for 1031. As far as I know, there is nowhere on any form, when performing a 1031 that you allocate personal property from within a building. Have you seen any rulings on this?

    This has always been a gray area in the code but if you read it black and white your personal property cannot be exchanged for real property.  Real property was always pretty vague but personal property has always been more strict.  Ie appliances could only be exchanged for appliances, not a new maintenance truck.  A truck could only be exchanged for another vehicle, etc.  

    I think the new code makes this area even more of a concern because in the past you would have some grounds to stand on when exchanging your personal property because the building you were purchasing also had personal property.  The new building was likely larger and even had more of it.

    I haven't had any clients audited on CSEG or 1031 exchanges nor have I seen any rulings.  In large transactions with a lot of property broken out it would be prudent for someone to see if there have been any recent cases involving 1031s and personal property.

    Agreed, it is still somewhat unclear, but most of the tax professionals I have spoken with tend to lean towards what I mentioned above. As long as the personal property is part of the real property, it is still considered real property for 1031 status. Of course, if there are new rulings that come about based on the tax reform, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Please refer to the following Chief Counsel Advice https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/1238027.pdf especially towards the end of page 4.

    In general, the definition of real property under section 1031 is determined by state law. In contrast, the definition of real and personal property (1250/1245) for tax-depreciation purposes is determined under federal law. State law tends to classify fixtures in a building as real property. Therefore, property such as wall coverings, carpeting, special purpose wiring or other installations affixed to the building can be considered real property under state law and like kind for section 1031 purposes, but personal property in cost segregation studies. Thus, real estate owners can benefit from both the gain deferral under section 1031 for real estate exchanges and the enhanced cost recovery deductions of the cost segregation study. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Yonah Weiss:
    Originally posted by @John Woodrich:

    @John Woodrich, I believe the new ruling with the tax reform of 1031 not applying to 'personal property' only refers to that which is not part of real property (like a car, plane, etc.). But segregating out personal property from a building for depreciation purposes doesn't affect it's status of 'real property' for 1031. As far as I know, there is nowhere on any form, when performing a 1031 that you allocate personal property from within a building. Have you seen any rulings on this?

    This has always been a gray area in the code but if you read it black and white your personal property cannot be exchanged for real property.  Real property was always pretty vague but personal property has always been more strict.  Ie appliances could only be exchanged for appliances, not a new maintenance truck.  A truck could only be exchanged for another vehicle, etc.  

    I think the new code makes this area even more of a concern because in the past you would have some grounds to stand on when exchanging your personal property because the building you were purchasing also had personal property.  The new building was likely larger and even had more of it.

    I haven't had any clients audited on CSEG or 1031 exchanges nor have I seen any rulings.  In large transactions with a lot of property broken out it would be prudent for someone to see if there have been any recent cases involving 1031s and personal property.

    Agreed, it is still somewhat unclear, but most of the tax professionals I have spoken with tend to lean towards what I mentioned above. As long as the personal property is part of the real property, it is still considered real property for 1031 status. Of course, if there are new rulings that come about based on the tax reform, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Please refer to the following Chief Counsel Advice https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/1238027.pdf especially towards the end of page 4.

    In general, the definition of real property under section 1031 is determined by state law. In contrast, the definition of real and personal property (1250/1245) for tax-depreciation purposes is determined under federal law. State law tends to classify fixtures in a building as real property. Therefore, property such as wall coverings, carpeting, special purpose wiring or other installations affixed to the building can be considered real property under state law and like kind for section 1031 purposes, but personal property in cost segregation studies. Thus, real estate owners can benefit from both the gain deferral under section 1031 for real estate exchanges and the enhanced cost recovery deductions of the cost segregation study. 

    This has gotten off topic but in MN, property law determines whether personal property is real property based on it's attachment to the real property.  Believe it is the called the law of fixtures?  A realtor could help with the actual law.  Under MN law appliances are clearly not real property.  In the case of a commercial building trade fixtures are not apart of the real property definition as they can be removed by the tenant after the lease is over.  So under property law in MN, these are clearly personal property.  Kitchen cabinets however would be considered real property under MN law.

    Regardless - all states have their own property law and property laws but everyone has the same tax code to deal with.  Under exam I think you would have a tough case to make by saying "yes it is separated out as personal property, however under the law of fixtures/attachment, it is considered real property under state law so it is real property for tax law although we already broke it out as personal property for tax....."

    Can message me if you would like to discuss further, this isn't on topic.

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