What do you think of this seller's Schedule E...

What do you think of this seller's Schedule E...

Jean BolgerPro Member
Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I was looking at a group of 4 fourplexes as a package deal. I had done my projections (yay! 50% rule) and things were looking good. Showed it to my lender, things were looking quite good. (yay!) Then, I get the seller's Sched E for the past two years, which has him at a whopping 73% expense ratio- yikes. So, basically, I am asking you more experienced folks if these numbers look likely. I understand the insurance, management, and taxes, those are what I expected- but the rest seem way high

Anyway, with a a gross annual rent of around 90k they are paying:

10% cleaning and maintenance
4% insurance
10% management
17% repairs
11% taxes
18% utilities (This is with 13 of the 16 units paying their own utilities, except water)
3% other (??)

These are basic brick, shingled roof fourplexes, built in 1976, w/ all electric utilities.

I can imagine three possible scenarios here.
1) The place is just a money pit (but why?)
2) The guy's getting soaked by his management
3)- the most awkward option!- he's being less than truthful w/ his Uncle Sam

anyway, this Schedule E probably blows my chance of financing this deal unless I can get it for less than half the asking price. But I am curious as to what you all might think and any suggestions that might come up about a way to proceed.

thanks!

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Investor · in, MI · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 102 votes
13y

If you can't figure out how to add everything back, just use the 73% expense as a valuation point for a lower offer. If the seller says it is too low just explain if the expenses are so high per year this is what it is worth, maybe they will "unravel" the assumed "increased expenses for tax purposes" for you. Just a thought if you cannot decipher it yourself.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Was there any major vacancy?

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    no, hardly any!

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    From my experience as an appraiser, people usually push the expenses upward for taxes; but 73% is way high (at least for my market) unless there was significant vacancy.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    That's the thing though; if he's got the place for sale -and it's been on the market for quite a while- he should know that any "pushing upward" (as you so politely put it!) would come back and bite him. Or maybe he doesn't know, and thinks he can butter his bread on both sides...

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Who is paying heat? And what were the repairs? Those would be my questions. Utilities you can probably verify, are those last 3 units driving the utility cost in some way that is aviodable. Other then that the cleaning/maintenence is hard to judge, Colorado, is it plowing? that cost seems high.

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    The 2 big ones I see that seem high are the repairs and the utilities.

    So are any of those repairs capital improvement items that you can show were one time costs and get your lender to back those out. I can see a re-roof or mechanical upgrades pushing that number higher than normal for a couple of years if he was making improvements to the property.

    On the utilities were any of those 13 units not paying utilities before but now are where again you could see if the lender will back them out as they are no longer an on going expense even though they were included before.

    It might not get you where you need to be, but it could be a start to at least get the expenses back down to 60-65% so maybe it would be doable with your lender.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I would look up or have your realtor lookup the taxes. I am in greeley and our taxes are less than .5% of value. Rates vary by county, but I can't imagine the county says it is valued over a million unless your tax basis is much higher. That's an easy one to lookup and see if it is legit.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Thanks guys! I live in Colorado, but the property is in Ohio- I've verified the taxes and they were part of my initial analysis. The repairs I will definitely ask about, what they were and how much they paid. I guess I can also call the utility company and the water company for their info - at least I know you can do that here in CO.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    That makes more sense. I almost never see properties that qualify for 50% rule in Colorado especially multi family.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    boy, isn't that true, Mark

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    13y

    On larger buildings we see where the NOI almost looks like nothing for tax purposes.

    You have to go in and take away non-customary add-backs and show to your lender.

    For instance the owner can have health insurance, retirement plans, above normal limits paid to property management when it is family members, when they turn units they can own the carpet or construction business and bill out at retail prices to reduce taxes down.

    With depreciation and these other things they make it look like it made almost no profit for tax purposes. If you can show the bank what should be there and what amount it is they are usually okay with and understand what the owner has been doing with books.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Sean Brennan:
    From my experience as an appraiser, people usually push the expenses upward for taxes; but 73% is way high.

    Yep
    As my auditor said
    "So how do you make money??"

  • Investor · in, MI · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 102 votes
    13y

    If you can't figure out how to add everything back, just use the 73% expense as a valuation point for a lower offer. If the seller says it is too low just explain if the expenses are so high per year this is what it is worth, maybe they will "unravel" the assumed "increased expenses for tax purposes" for you. Just a thought if you cannot decipher it yourself.

  • Longmont, CO · Member since 2013 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Is there a way to get the Schedule E for more than one year to see if the expenses are the same the previous year?

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Thanks all! These numbers are about the same (pretty much) for the past two years. My agent is inquiring about getting some more details. I did check with the utility co this morning and there's definitely some "inflation" there.
    I like Kurt K's suggestion... these numbers would support a price of about 50% of what they're asking.
    ah well, I'll just have to see what they come up with. The place has been on the market for a while; it may just be the case of a seller who doesn't see the conflict in saying "My place doesn't make any money, but it's worth a hell of a lot"

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Vicki Mead:
    Is there a way to get the Schedule E for more than one year to see if the expenses are the same the previous year?

    You can just request them from the seller directly or can submit a 4506-T to the IRS requesting copies of tax transcripts.

    Tax-Return-Transcripts

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I do have the Schedule E's for both 2011 and 2012, the ratios are substantially the same. So at least it's consistent!

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Matt Devincenzo:
    Originally posted by Vicki Mead:
    Is there a way to get the Schedule E for more than one year to see if the expenses are the same the previous year?

    You can just request them from the seller directly or can submit a 4506-T to the IRS requesting copies of tax transcripts.

    Tax-Return-Transcripts

    Actually, you want to do both. Get the seller's copy and perform your analysis; and then when the IRS delivers the transcript confirm that it matches the seller's copy.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Steve and Matt, I don't think I actually need to get transcripts, but I am confused. The 4506 -T does require the SS# and signature of the person whose return it is (as you'd expect- I certainly wouldn't want just anyone being able to request a copy of my tax return without my consent...). So you'd have to be asking the seller to fill out the request anyway, right? I'm just not seeing how this would help...

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jean Bolger:

    I like Kurt K's suggestion... these numbers would support a price of about 50% of what they're asking.

    Jean,

    I am presently looking at two small multifamily buildings (7 & 11 unit respectively) and did the above just this week: verbally told one of the vendors I was having difficulty reconciling the data provided and based on what I see the "business" was worth about 53% of the asking price.

    I have since been told the accountant will be in touch next week to assist me in interpreting some of the items in the financials.

    So .. go ahead and tell them what their data is telling you. If it is real, then the deal may not be that good. If it is inflated, then the fact it has been listed a long time may persuade the truth to come out.

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jean Bolger:
    I'm just not seeing how this would help...

    It gives you the seller's copy to look over initially so you're not wasting time from day one. And it gives you an actual copy of what was filed with the IRS directly from them so you're sure they didn't do some computer magic on the set they gave you.

    Trust but verify. And yes I have seen it many many times for all sorts of documents.

    I have a military friend that got leave denied when they unexpectedly went to a new command with almost no notice (she was pregnant)....no problem here is an already approved leave request and flight itinerary for tickets I bought 3 weeks ago (both fake and she was planning on driving). She showed that to them, and they went ahead and approved the request. So yes computer wizardry can be a problem if you aren't careful.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    OP
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Tax photoshopping! I'm sure it's happened. Although much more likely they'd fake a return that made it look like the property was more profitable rather than less.

    As a wise man once told me: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Sounds to me like he either had a really bad year with repairs; however, I also think he might adding in a few extras to bring taxable income down.

    Jean Bolger, Has the property been depreciated fully on the Schedule E? That could be a reason he has inflated expenses or its a lot of deferred maintenance.

    -Steven

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Steven Hamilton II:
    Sounds to me like he either had a really bad year with repairs; however, I also think he might adding in a few extras to bring taxable income down.

    Jean Bolger, Has the property been depreciated fully on the Schedule E? That could be a reason he has inflated expenses or its a lot of deferred maintenance.

    -Steven

    My thoughts exactly....
    we have a property we rehabbed the year of purchase & have owned it 30 years (depreciation is done) & we just spent $36,000 upgrading every inch of it.

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