Fellow BP-ers,
I have been in the short term vacation rental and SF long term rental business for 10 years now, and am entering the multifamily side of REI in an effort to scale and expand my business.
I have read a multitude of books, listened to numerous podcasts and reviewed as many resources as I could find on Multi-family/apartment investing to further educate myself. Along the way, I found that there was a veritable horde of people willing to train individuals on the subject, with many of these having very large price tags.
What was surprising to me was that many of these services did not seem to have a very long list of closings/deals, visible resources and/or proof of concept that I could see. Has anyone else experienced this? How does one separate the wheat from the chaff?
@David Cozzi all the education you need is right here on BP and free online. Personally I wouldn't pay more than the price of a BP pro subscription. Dealcheck app is useful for deal analysis and can even learn a lot of terms/definitions/calculations. Rentcast.io is good. Rentometer. Google everything then start going down all the rabbit holes you come across. Find a market and learn the good areas, rental rates, comps, etc. Find an investor friendly realtor, lender, PM, and fellow investors. Search BP for answers and ask your own questions. It'll take a few months, but doing your own leg work is worth a lot more in my opinion.
@David Cozzi all the education you need is right here on BP and free online. Personally I wouldn't pay more than the price of a BP pro subscription. Dealcheck app is useful for deal analysis and can even learn a lot of terms/definitions/calculations. Rentcast.io is good. Rentometer. Google everything then start going down all the rabbit holes you come across. Find a market and learn the good areas, rental rates, comps, etc. Find an investor friendly realtor, lender, PM, and fellow investors. Search BP for answers and ask your own questions. It'll take a few months, but doing your own leg work is worth a lot more in my opinion.
There is a ton of good, free information on the internet today; however working with a mentor is not just about learning the information but shortening the learning curve for the student. I do feel many of the programs are overpriced but if you want to learn a subject or a skill; hiring a mentor is one of the fastest ways of doing it. It does not have to be one of the mainstream ones you see advertised on the internet though; maybe find someone local that is able to assist you.
Depends on your multifamily goals. I used every free resource I could when I was starting out and it took a lot of time, but I made it work. If you want to buy 2-10 units, you can figure it out. However, if you plan to move fast, raise money, or partner with others on larger deals, you should seriously consider more structured training or working with a coach or mentor.
@David C. You are spot on - the coaching space is crowded and confusing...and plenty of "gurus" who are building a coaching empire vs. a real estate empire. I'm not sure if you're interested in large multifamily (100+ units), but if you are, I'd be happy to chat about my lessons learned with hiring coaches in this space and what to look for or avoid. We wasted some money and time on the wrong coach; however, when we found the right group/coach, our success took off. Maybe I can help you avoid the mistakes we made early on when we didn't know what to look for—wish you all the success!
Please go on youtube and search "Fake gurus"....basically same format can be applied over any specialty
step 1....use the think grow rich roadmap...think positive, find a good role model, here's some other habits of highly effective people, etc etc etc
step 2....take another gurus course and copy it or cobble together all the free info from BP, other vloggers, plagiarism, etc
step3....repackage as if you are a multi-family guru....
Most fall apart with scrutiny, especially if you have ten years real world experience.
By the way, that was $3000 course, that I discounted for a special limited time to $395!!!!!, because I need a distraction from 10000 multi unit portfolio that's over 8 billion in assets and I am just really a good generous person....oh and here's where you can wire the $395...
Good luck!
@Isaac S. I did exactly as you said and watched a great Youtube on the subject. It is so very true. One of the most interesting comments I saw posted below the video was this one:
"they always lead with “look how much money I have” and my first question is “ if you’re already so rich, why are you trying to get my money? You seem needy to me.”
Every guru I had come across talks about how successful and rich they became, so why would they be asking for $20-40k for knowledge that we could get here on BP ? The only answer I could come up with was this:
"They are either living off of their overpriced education fees and/or they use this money as seed money for their own private deals." Anyone care to weigh in on this ?
"They are either living off of their overpriced education fees and/or they use this money as seed money for their own private deals."
This is the correct answer IMO.
They need some extra money to help get them to their goals faster.
This is a great Q. I've seen quite a few gurus out there, some great, some not... I think @Charles Carillo said it very well above.
I'd point out that coaching is only as good as your focus on the path, and the action you will take from it.
(I've seen many people pay for coaching to feel like they're 'doing something' and 'taking massive action' when in reality, they're kind of just delaying taking action, and like to talk about how they're in XYZ program.)
I've also seen people jump into coaching programs, and take direct and coached action, and skyrocket in their careers.
I think that the successful coaching students will take any coaching, and apply the knowledge and networking, and DO something, like go buy a property.
That being said, if you're looking at coaching programs, I'd suggest:
1. find a coach/mentor/guru that is personally where you want to be in X years. They are your literal goal, not just 'an idea.' "Coach JOE has 10,000 doors under management in a syndication model. They personally cash flow $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want." or "Coach JANE personally owns 300 doors to their name, no investors, and cash flows $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want."
2. Once you find that person, I'd personally suggest going after them wholeheartedly, and once you're on board, stop listening to other gurus/experts on social media/blogs/etc. They will simply cloud the path you have clearly chosen. (If you are being coached by one guru who is teaching you how to own your own doors using hard money, but also listening to a syndicator who partially owns their doors and brings on investors and promotes that model, those are different game plans/paths and will only cloud your focus).
3. If you are assessing if this person is the real deal, ask the hard questions until you feel you have a good answer. This is tough, because the sales process will make you feel rushed, or like you're wasting their time when they are in such high demand, that you are LUCKY to get into their $XYZ program... This should be a life-long path you're going down, so stick to your guns until you're satisfied.
4. don't be woo'd or glamorized by flashy sales techniques. Real estate is boring, and not always cute, why should the coaching be?
5. be aware if you're being coached by the guru themselves, or a coach 'below them.' If being coached by someone below them, THAT is who you should really be sussing out. I've seen gurus hire coaches with very little experience. Then people pay the guru based on the sales tactics, but the coach they're getting is definitely NOT worth (any) money, in my opinion.
6. Once you sign up, and fork over any time and money, please please commit to take action on your coaching, preferably as you go. Don't wait to 'know it all' from the coach before you start working. Most processes have action steps along the way, you'd be well off to just get moving in this game. The next steps will present themselves, and your coach should be able to hold your hand and guide you as you progress.
Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any Questions.
@David Cozzi selling educational classes and guru courses is the new thing. Everyone seems to be doing it. IMO if you have read all the books, and done the research, you don’t need one of these classes. You are better off finding someone in your market that is already in the space. Then partner/network/learn from them.
Doing deals is complicated and can be stressful as not all projects go 100% smooth.
Selling education is stress free... its always the students fault.
This is a great Q. I've seen quite a few gurus out there, some great, some not... I think @Charles Carillo said it very well above.
I'd point out that coaching is only as good as your focus on the path, and the action you will take from it.
(I've seen many people pay for coaching to feel like they're 'doing something' and 'taking massive action' when in reality, they're kind of just delaying taking action, and like to talk about how they're in XYZ program.)
I've also seen people jump into coaching programs, and take direct and coached action, and skyrocket in their careers.
I think that the successful coaching students will take any coaching, and apply the knowledge and networking, and DO something, like go buy a property.
That being said, if you're looking at coaching programs, I'd suggest:
1. find a coach/mentor/guru that is personally where you want to be in X years. They are your literal goal, not just 'an idea.' "Coach JOE has 10,000 doors under management in a syndication model. They personally cash flow $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want." or "Coach JANE personally owns 300 doors to their name, no investors, and cash flows $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want."
2. Once you find that person, I'd personally suggest going after them wholeheartedly, and once you're on board, stop listening to other gurus/experts on social media/blogs/etc. They will simply cloud the path you have clearly chosen. (If you are being coached by one guru who is teaching you how to own your own doors using hard money, but also listening to a syndicator who partially owns their doors and brings on investors and promotes that model, those are different game plans/paths and will only cloud your focus).
3. If you are assessing if this person is the real deal, ask the hard questions until you feel you have a good answer. This is tough, because the sales process will make you feel rushed, or like you're wasting their time when they are in such high demand, that you are LUCKY to get into their $XYZ program... This should be a life-long path you're going down, so stick to your guns until you're satisfied.
4. don't be woo'd or glamorized by flashy sales techniques. Real estate is boring, and not always cute, why should the coaching be?
5. be aware if you're being coached by the guru themselves, or a coach 'below them.' If being coached by someone below them, THAT is who you should really be sussing out. I've seen gurus hire coaches with very little experience. Then people pay the guru based on the sales tactics, but the coach they're getting is definitely NOT worth (any) money, in my opinion.
6. Once you sign up, and fork over any time and money, please please commit to take action on your coaching, preferably as you go. Don't wait to 'know it all' from the coach before you start working. Most processes have action steps along the way, you'd be well off to just get moving in this game. The next steps will present themselves, and your coach should be able to hold your hand and guide you as you progress.
Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any Questions.
Do you mind if I ask: Have you ever paid for coaching or sold your own coaching service?
OH, and I almost forgot to add....some so called "investors" on BP are just selling for coaches or syndication ....but, don't take my word for it because according to them, that's a "hater" with a negative mindset, blah, blah, blah...always be skeptical when people are gonna show you how "easy" and "rich" and are only charging you because it weeds out the not serious people because now you have skin in the game.... more, blah, blah, blah
Reality check: zero real estate investors were successful, due to a paid for coach or guru, who after becoming successful, didn't say I would have got there with or without them....also, zero competent and successful asset managers or investors need to or want to have side gig being a mentor/coach, there's not enough time in the day!!!!
This is a great Q. I've seen quite a few gurus out there, some great, some not... I think @Charles Carillo said it very well above.
I'd point out that coaching is only as good as your focus on the path, and the action you will take from it.
(I've seen many people pay for coaching to feel like they're 'doing something' and 'taking massive action' when in reality, they're kind of just delaying taking action, and like to talk about how they're in XYZ program.)
I've also seen people jump into coaching programs, and take direct and coached action, and skyrocket in their careers.
I think that the successful coaching students will take any coaching, and apply the knowledge and networking, and DO something, like go buy a property.
That being said, if you're looking at coaching programs, I'd suggest:
1. find a coach/mentor/guru that is personally where you want to be in X years. They are your literal goal, not just 'an idea.' "Coach JOE has 10,000 doors under management in a syndication model. They personally cash flow $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want." or "Coach JANE personally owns 300 doors to their name, no investors, and cash flows $XYZ per year. THAT is exactly what I want."
2. Once you find that person, I'd personally suggest going after them wholeheartedly, and once you're on board, stop listening to other gurus/experts on social media/blogs/etc. They will simply cloud the path you have clearly chosen. (If you are being coached by one guru who is teaching you how to own your own doors using hard money, but also listening to a syndicator who partially owns their doors and brings on investors and promotes that model, those are different game plans/paths and will only cloud your focus).
3. If you are assessing if this person is the real deal, ask the hard questions until you feel you have a good answer. This is tough, because the sales process will make you feel rushed, or like you're wasting their time when they are in such high demand, that you are LUCKY to get into their $XYZ program... This should be a life-long path you're going down, so stick to your guns until you're satisfied.
4. don't be woo'd or glamorized by flashy sales techniques. Real estate is boring, and not always cute, why should the coaching be?
5. be aware if you're being coached by the guru themselves, or a coach 'below them.' If being coached by someone below them, THAT is who you should really be sussing out. I've seen gurus hire coaches with very little experience. Then people pay the guru based on the sales tactics, but the coach they're getting is definitely NOT worth (any) money, in my opinion.
6. Once you sign up, and fork over any time and money, please please commit to take action on your coaching, preferably as you go. Don't wait to 'know it all' from the coach before you start working. Most processes have action steps along the way, you'd be well off to just get moving in this game. The next steps will present themselves, and your coach should be able to hold your hand and guide you as you progress.
Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any Questions.
Do you mind if I ask: Have you ever paid for coaching or sold your own coaching service?
@isaac s no I haven't paid for coaching, nor have I sold coaching services.
Many of my friends and partners offer and have sold coaching programs, and many of my friends are in various coaching programs.
By the time I went to my first seminar/ heard of coaching programs, I was syndicating deals as a general partner so I may have been a bit late to the coaching game. Probably would have short-cut a lot of time and effort, but everyone has their own path :)
@David C. Teams closing deals do not have the time to teach training courses......Unless! they have built up their company to sustain such an arm of the business. Typically this means having a 1-3 people who run the training side at least. If you are running into a single person who claims to close large deals AND teach large deals, most likely not an active investor in large deals. So something to look for.
There are a number of well run mentorship's with good track records however, just do your due diligence. DM and I can recommend a few I have heard good things about a few if needed. Note : I have never done any of these mentorships. Nor do I think they are the only way...
@Keeley Hubbard would it be out of line to ask if I could visit with you also... won't take a lot of your time. Interested in your experiences as well.
@Charles Carillo what would you Pay a local mentor? I have been thinking about reaching out to a local investor.
@Samantha Lotti not at all! I'm happy to help - I wish we had someone to give us some guidance when we started. Shoot me a message and we can coordinate time to talk
@Keeley Hubbard you are awesome. Thank you. I'll reach out.
@David C. I have bought and sold 5,300 units valued at over $300 million and have probably spent over $100k on coaching.
For years I tried the free route and I didn't have the discipline to get the work done, I got lazy.
As stated above, not all coaching is the same and I probably wasted money on selecting the wrong coach.
Looking back now though, the "coaches" helped shape my business to get to where I am now. I will continue to pay for coaching going forward as I believe a good coach can push me to new levels.
Good luck on your journey!!
A lot of good info above. Would add that the right coaching seems to be a major benefit in a lot of investors journeys, just finding the right one is very difficult.
One course that I took that I thought was worth the money was Adventures in Commercial Real Estate (acres) course on modeling investing. Think it was like 300 or 500 but really helped get a good grasp of deals larger than 4 units and makes analyzing deals a lot easier.
Know thats not a coach but definitely a good resource when jumping into this space.
Try to find out how much income a teacher makes is from education vs investing. Are they using students to find them almost all the deals or are they doing it themselves?
Some educators put out content and $$$ courses solely to grow their network of potential future investors. Neither good nor bad, and a fair tactic in general. Some are honest about it and others kinda dance around it and profess to be doing it all because so many asked, and they are so very nice.
New investors get molded as student/partners or at least as passive investors with a bit more knowledge than average. A new pool of passive rookie investors to potentially draw on from either way. A few may prohibit student/teacher partnering or investing, for a period of time. Others will promote it as a learning path. As always, buyer beware. Get trusted referrals if you can. Some will promote guruX but they are invested there and do not reveal it up front.
Also digest books carefully. Some are written to educate future investors and have very good general content.Thing is, they are also mostly written by the GP to educate the LP on the "norms", standards etc. Potential conflict of interest when it comes to teaching deal structures, fee types, loan risks, equity splits etc.
@David C. I think you and other people here nailed it. The problem is that there is a very low barrier to entry to be a "Guru"
I have spent well into the 6 figure range on my real estate and business education. I believe there is no better place to invest than in myself. However the vast majority of that was after I was already doing profitable deals and it was to build my business, not on the hopes I could someday be a real estate investor.
When people ask me about courses. I have a dilemma. I know it was good for me. But I also know that the vast majority that take these courses fail.
@David C. I think you and other people here nailed it. The problem is that there is a very low barrier to entry to be a "Guru"
I have spent well into the 6 figure range on my real estate and business education. I believe there is no better place to invest than in myself. However the vast majority of that was after I was already doing profitable deals and it was to build my business, not on the hopes I could someday be a real estate investor.
When people ask me about courses. I have a dilemma. I know it was good for me. But I also know that the vast majority that take these courses fail.
Thanks so much for sharing that Ned. For the good of the group, would you share examples of what you spent money on that you felt was a *waste* and what you felt was a *win*, as well as criterion that might be able to "weed out" those that are a waste?
@David C. I have gotten something out of every program. But I got to the point long ago That if I got just one good solid tip it was worth it for me. Some of the old time gurus offered great value. You could buy their workbook, audio and or video course for $500-$1500.
Today if you buy a course at that price it is going to give little info and will only be an up-sell to a more expensive course. Perhaps that is the tip off. If you don't learn anything of value from the free pitch or least expensive class then don't consider paying for their more expensive training.
i also used to believe the value of a course was inversely related to the price. A $2500 course often gives you more info that a $20K mentoring program. I have met multiple people who have spent over $50k in training and have not done a deal.
Another tip off is; does the actual figurehead deliver the training. Robert Kyosaki of Rich Dad, Poor Dad fame sold real estate courses. But He didn't teach them, paid trainers (who might not have any real estate experience) taught them. The same is true with Donald Trump and "Trump University, and many others.
Next avoid anyone that has a UT address. That seems to be where the company or companies are located that do training subcontracting under another investors name.
Now specifically regarding multi family I would buy @Brian Burke's book published by BP. It is not about how to buy multi family exactly but how to invest in a syndications created by others. Worth the read whether you want to invest in another's deal or if you want to open your deals to others.
I never took Dave lindahl's in person training but I did buy his "home study' course and his book Multi family Millions. I thought he was good at presenting the good with the bad. Many gurus skip the bad but that is what you need to be prepared for. I believe Dave now has high end coaching so expect an upsell.
There is a home study course (an expensive book in a binder LOL) by Ray Alcorn called the deal makers guide. It is excellent.
Regarding evaluating properties, I think there is no better source than the CCIM training. This is high end commercial training. This is not your typical Guru training, this is serious training for commercial agents. You will really learn to evaluate the numbers and markets with their training. It is pretty intense.
You may be the type that can benefit from a coach. This may mean a high end program. There is nothing wrong with spending high dollars for an expensive coaching program if it is good and you will actually use it. The tough part is evaluating who is genuine and who are the jokers. Other than the above i can't help you there.