Beam too low in bedroom?

Beam too low in bedroom?

Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes

Hi I'm doing a rehab and pulled out walls of a load bearing hallway to combine two bedrooms to a master suite. Problem is a few things, the floor upstairs feels like a trampoline because the old owner who had built the upstairs addition used 4" floor joists instead of 6". My contractor says he can double them up to make them more stable which I hope is correct. 

The other issue is I almost hit my head on this new support beam they put in the ceiling where the hallway walls used to be, but they added it to two 2x4 header beams rather than removing all of those 2x4's and replacing with the beam for some reason. So now the beam is about 2" below the doorway entrance making an odd entry beam lower than the entry door. I think this is unacceptable. My GC says he can cut away half of the beam if we add a closet to the corner of the room which we planned to do up to the beam. 

Any second opinions would be helpful.

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Jared W SmithBusiness Member
Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
7y

Wow.. @Leland S.. @Alan Pederson is right. Firstly let me put my disclaimer out: 

Disclaimer: I am an architect, but I am not YOUR architect. I am not giving professional advice only general information. Contact a local architect/engineer for a detailed consultation specific to your project/locale.

..having said that- Your Contractor is cutting corners and it makes me question if he knows what he's doing. No way 2x4 should be holding any floor. That's against most if not all building codes. The fact that your Contractor is trying to band-aid fix it by adding more 2x4 is a big red flag. Then there's the head height issue. Building codes (here in NY State) say the lowest clear head height is 6'8", but for most spaces it has to be a min. of 7'. So if you are hitting your head than unless you are NBA tall, this shouldn't be happening. 

Who is your architect and/or engineer!? Who designed the headers that way, especially with the top plates remaining in place above support beam? What do the plans say? 

Based on the height of that open door, if this is the low head height area then likely due to the beam installation. The top plates are superficial and unnecessary. Joist should sit on new support. Another option if head height is an issue to complete a flush installation by joist hanging above framing to new beam allowing to eliminate the visible beam altogether. Who's inspecting these? They have a single 2x as shoring/support for the framing above? So so many questions.. 

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  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Erik B.:
    Originally posted by @Leland S.:

    @Erik B. - they weren't too concerned about the contents, just wanted to know how much to charge me based on the price of the project. 

    I knew going in I had unlicensed contractor risk, so when I inspected and noticed the problems (I at least know doors need to be 80" and a beam shouldn't hit me in the head in the middle of the room) I got concerned and posted here for advice. But ya, I paid for the lumber and labor on a daily basis and will have to keep paying him to redo I suppose or he may walk. He's paying random laborers by the day and they have no responsibility to do anything right. The risk of non-licensed guys. It can't hurt to ask though. 

     If your paying on a daily basis then you are only out any labor charges to this point. Most of that material is good and can be used or repurposed. It belongs to you. Take pictures. If they take it with them its theft. Having to buy another 100 2x4s shouldnt break the bank. These guys walking off the Job is prob the best thing for you. Cut your losses and move on. Find a good framer and get this project finished

     He's doing a lot more than just framing. He did the whole outside, deck, and new basement supports (which still didn't fix the floor level issues). Most of the work seems fine, but this beam was very odd 

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Erik Baumer It actually is the customer’s responsibility to check for licensing in most states and the states make it easy to look up licenses. If it’s AZ he has no recourse against an unlicensed contractor. This goes for CA, AZ, FL and according to what I looked up, most states. The state websites plainly read this way. I don’t know why you would hire someone unlicensed knowing that, and then sue them for work they screw up. Leland’s just trying to save $ and it sounds like he’s created a good working relationship with his worker. The worker can sue him if he gets injured on his property though, so Leland needs to watch out for that.
  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Erik Baumer It actually is the customer’s responsibility to check for licensing in most states and the states make it easy to look up licenses. If it’s AZ he has no recourse against an unlicensed contractor. This goes for CA, AZ, FL and according to what I looked up, most states. The state websites plainly read this way. I don’t know why you would hire someone unlicensed knowing that, and then sue them for work they screw up. Leland’s just trying to save $ and it sounds like he’s created a good working relationship with his worker. The worker can sue him if he gets injured on his property though, so Leland needs to watch out for that.

     I don't know why anyone would hire a unlicensed contractor and sue them.  There are countless contractors who when asked if they are licensed they lie and say yes and customers take them at their word. 

    You think this is a good working relationship? 

    After seeing these framing skills the first thing I would do is throw them off the job. Then I would go check that deck that they did to see how bad that is before someone gets hurt. 

    Doesn't sound like hes saving much money at all to be honest. I'm hoping he can find someone competent to straighten things out and build a relationship with that company for his future projects.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Leland Smith ok final answer, I don’t think you should deal with 2x8’s given the situation. Best case, double up on 2x6’s with glue and screw. You can’t cut your outside wall double top plate, so I wouldn’t mess with 2x8. If it doesn’t pass inspection, you’ll have to put a midspan beam in middle of room. It’s hard to recommend here, because nothing is conventional.
  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Leland S.:
    Originally posted by @Erik B.:
    Originally posted by @Leland S.:

    @Erik B. - they weren't too concerned about the contents, just wanted to know how much to charge me based on the price of the project. 

    I knew going in I had unlicensed contractor risk, so when I inspected and noticed the problems (I at least know doors need to be 80" and a beam shouldn't hit me in the head in the middle of the room) I got concerned and posted here for advice. But ya, I paid for the lumber and labor on a daily basis and will have to keep paying him to redo I suppose or he may walk. He's paying random laborers by the day and they have no responsibility to do anything right. The risk of non-licensed guys. It can't hurt to ask though. 

     If your paying on a daily basis then you are only out any labor charges to this point. Most of that material is good and can be used or repurposed. It belongs to you. Take pictures. If they take it with them its theft. Having to buy another 100 2x4s shouldnt break the bank. These guys walking off the Job is prob the best thing for you. Cut your losses and move on. Find a good framer and get this project finished

     He's doing a lot more than just framing. He did the whole outside, deck, and new basement supports (which still didn't fix the floor level issues). Most of the work seems fine, but this beam was very odd 

    I'm sorry but you really need to wake up. Most of his work isn't fine. You have to start with a solid base or foundation. You can make a sorry foundation look good.....for a while anyway until it gives. Do you have any family or friends in the trade? Someone who could walk you through the issues? I have a feeling you have more issues than you may realize. 

    Take a deep breath. Its not the end of the world. This can all be fixed and probably for less than you think. But you need at least a journeyman carpenter out there. On the local news today there was a story about a crane falling on a job near me. The last thing you need is a lawsuit down the road.

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Leland Smith ok final answer, I don’t think you should deal with 2x8’s given the situation. Best case, double up on 2x6’s with glue and screw. You can’t cut your outside wall double top plate, so I wouldn’t mess with 2x8. If it doesn’t pass inspection, you’ll have to put a midspan beam in middle of room. It’s hard to recommend here, because nothing is conventional.

    Be careful on the technical advice. A 2x6 only will span less than 10' with a 10 lb dead load and 40 lb live load calculation. That's if its Pine. Spruce and fir will be less. If his room is more than 10' long 2x6 wont work. Plus they are already bouncy according to the OP. The 2x6 is why. 

    I am not an engineer. I have just been around the trades all my life. The above info may or may not apply to your area. Always err on the side of caution.

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Leland S.  Talk to an engineer and see if a 2x6 C purlin will span what you need. They are relatively cheap and they are straight. But ask an engineer or Architect. 

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Mike Reynolds that’s why I said it’s hard to recommend because nothing is conventional or proper. He has to come up with a solution and I was just interested in how difficult this situation is to actually solve. I gave my best solution, but it’s all speculative because I can’t measure the spans, and I don’t know exactly how long 2- 2x6 glued and fastened together can span, but it’s the only quick less costly solution. Do you have any ideas, or are you just saying he needs to tear the house down and redo the foundation? The safest thing to do here, would be to double up on 2x6 glued and then put another beam under the room spans to get rid of any flex, but none of it’s pretty. The recessed beam would be the prettiest, but posts are a problem and it would need to be 3- 2x10 glued and fastened to span 12’ across rooms to a post in the framing or somewhere in the room.
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    You really NEED an engineer in there. Your contractor is just adding material and seems to have no idea exactly what he is doing. You are overseeing him and have no clue what you are looking at... this is a recipe for disaster. Stop your contractor, bring in a licensed expert and have an actual fix for all the issues designed.

    I would also be worried about the permits you pulled and what they will say when they see this. I would be shocked if they didn't need or care about engineering of structural supports/members.

    Time to stop and do things correctly.

  • Contractor · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2018 · 303 posts · 240 votes
    7y

    @Leland Smith

    There are many people out there who are unlicensed the do great work however yours does not seem to be one of them

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Back in 2005 we had an 10ft LVL beam installed as part of a room expansion. The contractor decided to cut 1inch out of the LVL to allow the new sliding door to slide in easier. Our Bldg Inspector deemed the entire LVL compromised so it was replaced (at their cost) & the door slid in anyway. 

    Since then I have done a lot of LVL beams in rehabs the longest was 26ft. Fortunately I have a commercial architect friend who can run the span & beam deflection numbers for me. I shudder to think what your Bldg Inspector is going to say after he doubles over laughing at that monstrosity. 

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Mike Reynolds that’s why I said it’s hard to recommend because nothing is conventional or proper. He has to come up with a solution and I was just interested in how difficult this situation is to actually solve. I gave my best solution, but it’s all speculative because I can’t measure the spans, and I don’t know exactly how long 2- 2x6 glued and fastened together can span, but it’s the only quick less costly solution. Do you have any ideas, or are you just saying he needs to tear the house down and redo the foundation? The safest thing to do here, would be to double up on 2x6 glued and then put another beam under the room spans to get rid of any flex, but none of it’s pretty. The recessed beam would be the prettiest, but posts are a problem and it would need to be 3- 2x10 glued and fastened to span 12’ across rooms to a post in the framing or somewhere in the room.

    I did have an idea above. I also never advocated tearing the whole thing down. 

    I had a job whereas we used 8" C purlin to span 25'. It had 1 1/4" tongue and groove plywood glued and screwed to these purlins. It was for storage for gas pumps that weigh about 1200 pounds each. It held them beautifully without sag. But this was MY job with MY engineer's directives and stamp.  Like I said before, I am not an engineer but I have seen what a good engineer can do and can guess that a 6" C Purlin is stronger than a 2x6. I could be wrong. 

    Thats why he needs to ask his engineer what to do in his case.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Mike Reynolds yeah, I wrote my question while you were writing and I think you habe a good idea. I think we’re all in the real estate business for financial freedom etc. so I like to provide cost effective ideas for construction and help find a solution to a dead end. Real Estate pre-dates codes, and many houses we all know are built uncompliant with code due to the old methods of construction and material making. Thankfully we don’t have to change what’s already there often, when doing permit work, unless it ties in with new work. To make this whole situation up to modern code may be a total blow out financially and may not be required. (I know you know these things). As for the C Perlin, this may be another solution that is more costly on time and money. The steel perlins are typically a true 6” vs the 2x6 he has should be 5 1/2”. So they’d have to notch out the top plates for every one installed. Sounds like a lot of work and expense. Adding a 2x6 beside the existing ones probably isn’t the code compliant perfect solution, but he may not be required to change what’s already there if he has put beams where walls were underneath. It might just be to sturdy up the floor.
  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y

    Man... this thread has gotten worst now that all the facts have come out. We have an inexperienced owner that took out their own permit and utilized an unlicensed drafter with a unlicensed contractor ::face palm:: I stand by all my prior responses. GET HELP ASAP. 

    @Account Closed has discovered his problem and could have other issues (other work completed by said contractor) therefore he needs to reach out for professional help to be there onsite and help him through this. 

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  • Rental Property Investor · Clearwater, FL · Member since 2013 · 124 posts · 55 votes
    7y

    as an Architect licensed in Florida & Virginia, i will quote Jared W Smith above,

    Contact a local architect/engineer for a detailed consultation specific to your project/locale.

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    I tried to send in a framing guy to inspect the job but he said the place was closed up and nobody there at 9am. My contractor insists the door was open all day. 

    Next up, I am sending over a structural engineering guy to take a look. My contractor keeps insisting everything is fine and he never failed inspection and the walls (he didn't install, eg ceiling) will be closed up before inspector gets there so as "not to open any cans of worms". 

  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y

    Wow. He's trying to get over on you. Your contractor is hiding his work. DO NOT LET HIM CLOSE UP THE WALLS. 

    You should have keys to your property no matter who is working within/on it. I would issue a stop work order, halt all payments and get this contractor off the project. I hope you can site breach of contract (assuming you have a good contract with him and it is attached to satisfactorily completion of work including calling for necessary inspections with the city.)  @Leland S.

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  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jared W Smith:

    Wow. He's trying to get over on you. Your contractor is hiding his work. DO NOT LET HIM CLOSE UP THE WALLS. 

    You should have keys to your property no matter who is working within/on it. I would issue a stop work order, halt all payments and get this contractor off the project. I hope you can site breach of contract (assuming you have a good contract with him and it is attached to satisfactorily completion of work including calling for necessary inspections with the city.)  @Leland S.

     I have no contract. He didn't want to sign anything or accept any payments directly. He only works over the phone. I'm going to send in an engineer and see what he thinks, if it's really bad, I'll stop work until I can get it fixed. He seems to think no mistakes were made as of now.

  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y

    @Leland S. You've got yourself into quite a pickle. I won't beat a dead horse but I know you will know better for next time. No contract means no definitive scope of work. Therefore everything is arbitrary and open to possibly different interpretations. This spells a very bad circumstance. I hope things do not get worst for you. I'm sure many people here would like to hear how things turn out. Best.. 

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  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jared W Smith:

    @Leland S. You've got yourself into quite a pickle. I won't beat a dead horse but I know you will know better for next time. No contract means no definitive scope of work. Therefore everything is arbitrary and open to possibly different interpretations. This spells a very bad circumstance. I hope things do not get worst for you. I'm sure many people here would like to hear how things turn out. Best.. 

     I was nervous about it, but I've had licensed crews work up a sh*t storm on my last place billing me 10k/wk and the trim out was a total slop job. So I got a couple strong references for him and he is long time friends with my parents good friend, so it's slightly better than a craigslist rando. I'm having him send me pictures every day but since I live in AZ I only travel out there to see once a month, that is when I observed in person the beam was unnecessarily low and the floor needed to be bolstered. I don't want to take shortcuts and keep telling him to do things right. I'm guessing he's probably more experienced with trim out, decks, and porches than framing. But as they always do, they self aggrandize and say "oh we do everything, built whole houses from ground up". That's what the framing guys told me last time and their framing was great, trim out was crap. Hope he will comply with the engineer I get in there. If not I will shut him down until he does or move on.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    This is an out of state flip with an unlicensed contractor, no signed contract with a SOW and he wants to close up walls before inspections... this is a bad situation and you really need to gain control of it.

  • Contractor · Painesville, OH · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    @Leland Smith

    Absolutely stop him from cutting the lvl.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Leland Smith. Just plow the house. Fire the contractor. Hire an engineer (experienced guys with tons of framing experience). Never buy an old house because it might not be to code and you’ll have to pay so much for licensed engineers to make it code. I don’t think engineers make a living on drawing plans for residential wall replacments. I bet there’s a lot of investors here that don’t voluntarily pull permits on old houses where they replace a wall with a beam. Sucks to be you right now! Oh and don’t you dare cover up those old joists, you need to expose every little thing to the building inspector to make sure he catches it all!
  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Leland S. Lots of doom-and-gloom on this thread, but your problem is easy to resolve now that the walls are open. Fire this "contractor" (who sounds more like a handyman w/ a crew), not because he doesn't know what he's doing but rather because he realizes that and still wants to just ram this through and cover it up. He gets his money when the job is done, but you have to live with the consequences when the floor potentially bows/collapses in a couple years.

    Hire an architect who has an engineer they work with. They'll come by, look at the current framing, and draw up the plans to correct any issues. You turn that over to a framing crew, they read/follow the plans like its their bible, and the job is done. It'll be a little more expensive than you planned for, but worth it and necessary. I wouldn't call the municipal inspectors in until the work is done and you have stamped plans in-hand. They aren't there to help you, they are there to ensure compliance which can be costly. I've even had inspectors tell us to make unnecessary repairs in their "opinion" until we got a licensed architect involved to correct them.

  • Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 902 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:

    @Leland S. Lots of doom-and-gloom on this thread, but your problem is easy to resolve now that the walls are open. Fire this "contractor" (who sounds more like a handyman w/ a crew), not because he doesn't know what he's doing but rather because he realizes that and still wants to just ram this through and cover it up. He gets his money when the job is done, but you have to live with the consequences when the floor potentially bows/collapses in a couple years.

    Hire an architect who has an engineer they work with. They'll come by, look at the current framing, and draw up the plans to correct any issues. You turn that over to a framing crew, they read/follow the plans like its their bible, and the job is done. It'll be a little more expensive than you planned for, but worth it and necessary. I wouldn't call the municipal inspectors in until the work is done and you have stamped plans in-hand. They aren't there to help you, they are there to ensure compliance which can be costly. I've even had inspectors tell us to make unnecessary repairs in their "opinion" until we got a licensed architect involved to correct them.

    100% agree with all of this, especially the part about NOT bringing in the city inspector. 9 times out of 10 they'll make things much, much worse by some combo of shutting down the job, fining you, demanding some crazy "fixes", documenting site conditions incorrectly, or deciding to make an example out of you and going over the house with a fine tooth comb. 

    The government is not your friend. The inspectors have to CYA themselves and they don't care what it costs you in time and money and occasionally they just plain don't care. In fairness to them, they can only look at stamped and approved plans and determine if they were followed or not. They can't size beams or design connections and it's not their job nor liability to do so. That's why architects and engineers charge so much. If they design something and it fails, as long as the installer followed their drawing, it's on the architect or engineer. They have insurance and licenses for those sorts of issues and I'm betting it's not cheap nor easy to obtain or maintain either. 

    Fire that yokel of a handyman now. Have all of his previous work inspected by a competent GC or framer, especially that deck you mentioned! Deck failures are no joke and happen way too often. Also, someone mentioned load paths but didn't spell out to you that the giant column/post thingy that hits the middle of your floor needs to be supported all the way down into the basement or crawlspace with a proper footing. All that weight its transferring from above needs to go into a solid bearing point in the soil via a properly sized concrete footing. The floor joists on the first floor likely won't carry that load, at least not well, over a long period of time. 

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