Beam too low in bedroom?

Beam too low in bedroom?

Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes

Hi I'm doing a rehab and pulled out walls of a load bearing hallway to combine two bedrooms to a master suite. Problem is a few things, the floor upstairs feels like a trampoline because the old owner who had built the upstairs addition used 4" floor joists instead of 6". My contractor says he can double them up to make them more stable which I hope is correct. 

The other issue is I almost hit my head on this new support beam they put in the ceiling where the hallway walls used to be, but they added it to two 2x4 header beams rather than removing all of those 2x4's and replacing with the beam for some reason. So now the beam is about 2" below the doorway entrance making an odd entry beam lower than the entry door. I think this is unacceptable. My GC says he can cut away half of the beam if we add a closet to the corner of the room which we planned to do up to the beam. 

Any second opinions would be helpful.

1Reply
126 views

Most Popular Reply

Jared W SmithBusiness Member
Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
7y

Wow.. @Leland S.. @Alan Pederson is right. Firstly let me put my disclaimer out: 

Disclaimer: I am an architect, but I am not YOUR architect. I am not giving professional advice only general information. Contact a local architect/engineer for a detailed consultation specific to your project/locale.

..having said that- Your Contractor is cutting corners and it makes me question if he knows what he's doing. No way 2x4 should be holding any floor. That's against most if not all building codes. The fact that your Contractor is trying to band-aid fix it by adding more 2x4 is a big red flag. Then there's the head height issue. Building codes (here in NY State) say the lowest clear head height is 6'8", but for most spaces it has to be a min. of 7'. So if you are hitting your head than unless you are NBA tall, this shouldn't be happening. 

Who is your architect and/or engineer!? Who designed the headers that way, especially with the top plates remaining in place above support beam? What do the plans say? 

Based on the height of that open door, if this is the low head height area then likely due to the beam installation. The top plates are superficial and unnecessary. Joist should sit on new support. Another option if head height is an issue to complete a flush installation by joist hanging above framing to new beam allowing to eliminate the visible beam altogether. Who's inspecting these? They have a single 2x as shoring/support for the framing above? So so many questions.. 

Architect Owl PLLC521 Reviews
See this reply in the discussion

87 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y

    I bought a house where someone had cut into the beams. That was a fun repair, S-L-O-W-L-Y jacking the sagging part of the house back up over an extended period of time. Don't cut the beam. 

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    Threads like this do not come along every day on BP. Wish there were more of them.

  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:

    Threads like this do not come along every day on BP. Wish there were more of them.

     I agree. Many can learn from scenarios like this. 

    Architect Owl PLLC521 Reviews
  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Leland Smith ok, photos 4 and 5 look really bad. The first couple not so bad, just your floor joists are probably spanning too far (general rule 1” thickness for every 1’ of span, sometimes floorjoists can span a little further than a beam on this rule). Changing your floor joists to 2x8 or 2x10 is a total blowout. That huge beam on photo 4 and 5 is not needed as it has all the door framing and studs breaking up the span. I want to just drive over there and straighten this thing out for you without blowing out the whole job! Don’t spend too much on this crap. Framing is the easy part and finish takes longer. With inspections it has to look good and follow the general correct way to do things. You might have to see if you can get away with those joists, and if not, you’ll have to put more beams :). The recessed beam is nice, but you might be able to get away without installing them because you’ll need a few if you’re going that road. The big openings aren’t as jacked up as that stuff going over your doorways. I understand it’s hard to know the proper way to make it all look good for code, but someone who knows framing can straighten this out by removing the giant beam on photos 4-5 that sits too low and isn’t framed correctly. Hope you don’t have to pay too much for someone who knows how, and I would get rid of the first guy. He’s probably a cool guy, just doesn’t know how to frame correctly. If I was doing a basic framing correction like that I’d probably charge $1200 materials included on the doorway stuff and other little stuff. Try your best to not redo it all! Talk to a framing company. Probably don’t waist too much on GC title or engineer title. Let me know if you have more questions.

    Problem is the OP is not experienced enough to know anything about what you've said otherwise he would have picked it up immediately. Also, it should not be the responsibility of the owner to provide unrelated google photos of what the contractor is to do. That can dip his toe into "directing" the contractor and their "means and methods." You never want to do this directly. If the proposed solution doesn't work, then they'll blame you with "You told us to do it this way. Now you will need to pay us to fix or change it." Trust me.. it's a slippery slope. Owner is not the GC, therefore he should not act as one.   

    Architect Owl PLLC521 Reviews
  • Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    An inspector can Redtag a home that load beams have been altered. Needing PE(Structure) calculation, specs, plans, stamp seal approval permit prior to altering it. Final inspection.

  • Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes
    7y

    The owner should not pay for non-compliant work; that includes materials and labor.  You paid the contractor to do the work once. If it takes 5 tries to get it right then this sucks for the contractor.  I would review the drawings the architect gave you to verify what has been installed meets the drawings.  If the work matches the plans then the Architect needs to pay for the error not the owner.   Having the building dept inspect this this give you 3rd party verification.

    @Jared W Smith and @Nik Moushon give great advice day in and day out! 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    I am not sure about the beam issue.  But for sure you can double up the floor joists for the upstairs.  Also a few perpendicular tie pieces can give more strength and tie the whole floor system together.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Jared W Smith I agree your concerns are valid. However, Leeland did state this is not a licensed contractor. He will not be able to hold this guy accountable for anything, knowing he hired an unlicensed guy. I wouldn’t get any inspectors in there until it was fixed by the guy who did it or someone else. The inspector isn’t there to help him through a series of mistakes. They will charge extra for extra trips to inspect if work is like this, and possibly start looking at other stuff. Since he’s using an unlicensed guy, it’s kind of the Wild West there. Basically cheating, hoping to save money. Not all states are as picky on GC licensing but Arizona doesn’t consider anyone without a license a GC. It’s going to look real bad if he complains to the building inspector that his unlicensed guy did all the work. This isn’t the end of the world, and he’s going to have to learn how to do a cost effective solution. This is a great chance at a framing education so congrats to Leeland for diving in!
  • Architect · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 20 votes
    7y

    The major problem I see here @Leland S. ,  since you opted to self-perform by pulling the permits under your name and not hire a Licensed GC you bare responsibility for what happens on site. Sorry to break it to you but that's the harsh reality when owners opted to self-perform. For this type of extensive work you really should have hired a licensed GC especially being a newbie and all. You should have also have hired a structural engineer to adequately calculate the existing loans which would determine the size of the beam. The engineer would have given you a variety of choices (glulam, LVL, or steel)  depending on your particular scenario. Just to reinforce my point if you would have hired a licensed GC he would have pull permits under his licensed and the Agency having jurisdiction over your project would have not classified your project as an owner self-performing project. My understanding is you are responsible for any work that gets done on site. Sorry to be so direct but that's how I interpret your situation. With that said, this doesn't liberate the workers on site to just build anything they want...you still have the responsibility to direct them to fix the issue....it's called managing and you elected to manage the project the moment you pulled permits. 

    Wishing you the best of luck.

  • Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 222 posts · 294 votes
    7y

    @Jared W Smith Hey, I was curious about adding a recessed beam in one of my rentals. On your third picture you posted it shows an attic space.. Is this OK even though those ceiling joists are considered "tension joists"? Are those joist hangers rated for tension?

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed No he is not licensed but he has "experience" in structural engineering. No stamp and the codes dep. almost didn't care about the drawings. There is a basement below with posts that should be underneath those beams. He added a bunch of posts to level the flooring because it is wavy everywhere, but after him adding 18 support posts still half the house is wavy and dipping. I was going to hire a foundation specialist for it but my GC insisted he could do it for way less. 

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    @Salvador Jimenez - that is correct. He is so cheap that I have to hire outside help to make sure he's doing the right thing but once the hard parts are done the finishing work shouldn't be as much a problem. The licensed guys wanted over 100k for this project, since I bought wrong this is my only chance to keep on top of the guy so I don't have rework. 

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    @Brian Ploszay - you mean double up the 2x6" joists and not add 2x8's? That would be ideal so I don't have to lower the ceiling. 

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Sam Shueh:

    An inspector can Redtag a home that load beams have been altered. Needing PE(Structure) calculation, specs, plans, stamp seal approval permit prior to altering it. Final inspection.

     That would be bad if I paid the architect who isn't licensed to provide inputs and the city shuts me down until I pay again for a licensed guy. Hmm.

  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 682 posts · 476 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Cam Jimmy:

    @Jared W Smith Hey, I was curious about adding a recessed beam in one of my rentals. On your third picture you posted it shows an attic space.. Is this OK even though those ceiling joists are considered "tension joists"? Are those joist hangers rated for tension?

    It depends highly on the circumstance. I don't know those projects however I have seen it done in that manner in past. It would need to be reviewed by an engineer. Essentially as long as the load is transferred it should be fine. With the tension playing a part, I would have a beefier connections from exterior wall studs to joist and rafters. But as I said, each project is different and demands proper review and due diligence.    

    Architect Owl PLLC521 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    7y

    That’s what she said!! 😂😂😂

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Leland Smith. You might need to double up on those with 2x8. They can cut that double top plate out and then put a 1x or something under your 2x8 accross the top of the beam. The other obvious option is to put a beam in the middle of the room, but 2x6 are still a little unconventional for floor joists and you may run the risk of not complying with your building inspectors liking. To play it safe you probably have to double up on the 2x6 with 2x8 glued with PL glue from Hlme Depot. It’s polyurethane and is stronger than liquid nails and will help make your floor more stable. Doubling up will be a lot of work, and they should have done this before installing beams for sure. You could put a recessed 2 x 12 beam in the middle of your rooms that hangs down 6” attaching floor joists with hangers like Jared showed to get rid of the spongyness, but 2x6 still don’t look real good up there. Probably double up with the 2x8 glued. Then if you can’t pass inspection on the spans, put a recessed beam through the middle of your rooms worst case. You’ll probably pass w 2x8 doubled on to the 2x6 glued. Big thing is to get them to correct the beam over doorways and frame a standard load bearing wall there so it doesn’t make the whole job look inexperienced.
  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    7y

    What a disaster this is. 

    My first question...How did you get a permit with out an engineer doing the calculations  and signing off on it? Where these structural alterations part of the permit?

    You need to fire the contractor who did this work. To an experienced eye it is easy to tell they have no business doing that kind of work and will not be competent enough to fix it and make it right. 

    I dont know about your state but if you hire a unlicensed contractor here, under the law you do not have to pay them. You can go to court and the court will rule in your favor. Call your county's licensing dept and office of consumer affairs. Then demand your money back from contractor and threaten legal action and getting consumer affairs involved if they dont refund your money.

    Call and ask around for a framing contractor. This is not complicated stuff and a small crew can straighten this out in a day. 

    Get 3 estimates and go with the best VALUE. STOP SHOPPING BY PRICE.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    7y

    @Leland Smith 700 is a low number for an architect in my area. But oddly that is near what I pay my architect for minor work. I give him 3-4 jobs a year and as long as I don’t push to hard on time frame and make changes that’s pretty close.

    I would go back to that architect and ask for construction plans. 700 for a floor plan sounds like it’s too high to me.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    7y
    @Leland Smith. You’re both operating illegally working together without licensing. You don’t have a legal advantage on this guy, and may have a Wild West disadvantage if you don’t pay him for stuff. Fix the beam over doorways by replacing w load bearing wall framing. You can find good photos to show him on this. Then put 2x8’s beside all 2x6 glued. Pm me and call and I can text you photos if it helps or talk to your guy. This has been a very interesting problem to solve and many possible solutions presented! I’m just trying to save you time and money that could put you deep in debt.
  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    @John Hickey - I was OK with the $700, it was the fact that I didn't even end up needing the drawings and the before drawing was $350 which I didn't need a full rendering of. Nevertheless, the drafter is not licensed, I was going to have him look at the framing issues and straighten it out but then found he isnt' licensed, so nothing could be stamped by him.

  • Developer · LA, Nashville TN · Member since 2015 · 295 posts · 75 votes
    7y

    @Erik B. - they gave me a home owners permit. Don't think they have much requirement there, I showed them the drawings but they weren't too concerned about the contents, just wanted to know how much to charge me based on the price of the project. 

    I knew going in I had unlicensed contractor risk, so when I inspected and noticed the problems (I at least know doors need to be 80" and a beam shouldn't hit me in the head in the middle of the room) I got concerned and posted here for advice. But ya, I paid for the lumber and labor on a daily basis and will have to keep paying him to redo I suppose or he may walk. He's paying random laborers by the day and they have no responsibility to do anything right. The risk of non-licensed guys. It can't hurt to ask though. 

  • Dan BeaulieuPro Member
    Lender · Knoxville, Tennessee (TN) · Member since 2016 · 422 posts · 667 votes
    7y

    @Leland S. I just did a Nashville flip where we did a TON of recessed beams. This is all messed up for a lot of reasons. PM me and I'll give you my Nashville Contractor who is a straight shooter and my structural engineer who may cost a few hundred bucks to come out and look, but it will be well worth it. He's a flipper himself so understands the game. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Leland S.:

    @Erik B. - they weren't too concerned about the contents, just wanted to know how much to charge me based on the price of the project. 

    I knew going in I had unlicensed contractor risk, so when I inspected and noticed the problems (I at least know doors need to be 80" and a beam shouldn't hit me in the head in the middle of the room) I got concerned and posted here for advice. But ya, I paid for the lumber and labor on a daily basis and will have to keep paying him to redo I suppose or he may walk. He's paying random laborers by the day and they have no responsibility to do anything right. The risk of non-licensed guys. It can't hurt to ask though. 

     If your paying on a daily basis then you are only out any labor charges to this point. Most of that material is good and can be used or repurposed. It belongs to you. Take pictures. If they take it with them its theft. Having to buy another 100 2x4s shouldnt break the bank. These guys walking off the Job is prob the best thing for you. Cut your losses and move on. Find a good framer and get this project finished

  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Leland Smith. You’re both operating illegally working together without licensing. You don’t have a legal advantage on this guy, and may have a Wild West disadvantage if you don’t pay him for stuff. Fix the beam over doorways by replacing w load bearing wall framing. You can find good photos to show him on this. Then put 2x8’s beside all 2x6 glued. Pm me and call and I can text you photos if it helps or talk to your guy. This has been a very interesting problem to solve and many possible solutions presented! I’m just trying to save you time and money that could put you deep in debt.

     Hes in a diff state then you. Different states have diff laws. I'm not sure about AZ but here this would all fall on contractor not the customer. It is not the customers responsibility to check licensing. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.