Alternatives to Installing Central Air Conditioning

CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.

We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.

My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).

I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.

We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

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Jeff WhiteBusiness Member

Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 278 posts · 371 votes

It really depends, as you know in Denver, we don't have extreme summers like places such as Phoenix, so AC isn't necessarily as requirement for sure, basically you really need it in the summer months.

If you already have a furnace with vents, then adding central AC would be the cheaper option than minisplits. Also, portable AC units and window units jack up your utility bill in the summer, and those can sometimes fry the outlets since they draw a ton of power compared to central AC.

Since you are located in a premium area, I would definitely recommend adding AC to your single family, it is worth the extra cost vs. fixing the swamp cooler.

I have a good HVAC guy that can definitely help you. Not sure if you need a full upgrade on your panel. Feel free to DM me.

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Jeff WhiteBusiness Member
Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 278 posts · 371 votes
2y
It really depends, as you know in Denver, we don't have extreme summers like places such as Phoenix, so AC isn't necessarily as requirement for sure, basically you really need it in the summer months.

If you already have a furnace with vents, then adding central AC would be the cheaper option than minisplits. Also, portable AC units and window units jack up your utility bill in the summer, and those can sometimes fry the outlets since they draw a ton of power compared to central AC.

Since you are located in a premium area, I would definitely recommend adding AC to your single family, it is worth the extra cost vs. fixing the swamp cooler.

I have a good HVAC guy that can definitely help you. Not sure if you need a full upgrade on your panel. Feel free to DM me.
5 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
@Jeff White Thank you for this. Yes, the furnace is gas forced-air so ducts and vents are already in place - sorry I was not more clear on that. It does lend itself to a central air system. I like what you said about a premium area - It seems to me that tenants renting in this area expect AC - for those two months/few days in the Colorado summer that are in the high 90's.
I am surprised to learn that mini-split systems are more expensive. But I don't know much about them. I was thinking in a simplistic way a single unit could be installed on the main floor which is where the cooling is needed, but again I may not be appreciating all the ins and outs of a mini-split. The house is a single story bungalow 950 sq ft on main floor. Basement is similar in size but stays cool on its own.
I will DM you.
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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

That system will most likely be the most cost effective because it is most popular. that pricing does not seem awful depending on the SEER rating of the equipment you are getting. Definitely get several proposals.
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Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.
1 Reply
Brittany Guimond
Realtor · New Castle, CO · Member since 2022 · 93 posts · 58 votes
2y
As long as you have ductwork in place, I strongly recommend NOT putting in A/C and instead going with a heat pump. Heat pumps are incredibly efficient, use far less energy than a conventional A/C, and are used all over the US and internationally in all sorts of climates. They are the way of the future and I suspect we'll start to see them more and more as energy costs continue to increase.

If you have the ductwork already, you should NOT need minisplits / head units on the interior walls (these can add up $$). This can be a differentiator from the competition, for example say in your marketing description something like "save money on your energy bills in the summer!" (we do this now with one of our LTRs that has solar and it works).

What's more, you can use a heat pump in the winter too, so when your furnace finally goes out, you're covered with this ONE solution (versus needing to get another gas furnace, adding yet another benefit to tenants in that they can keep energy bills low all year round). And to be clear, you will need a furnace or a blower to run the heat pump, but if your heat pump is the device running the heating and cooling (vs the furnace itself), it will be cheaper to run and use less fossil fuels.

Cost-wise, installing a heat pump only should be comparable in price to an A/C. Also, the state of Colorado is expecting to see some additional tax rebates come out summer/fall 2024, so if you can wait it out one more summer, it might be worth it. However, it's unclear if those rebates will be available to landlords, right now the tax credits available through the inflation reduction act (different than the rebates I just mentioned) are only available to homeowners right now. Additionally, the city of Denver and Xcel also offer rebates, but your HVAC installer will know about those so just remember to ask.

All that to say, I recommend touching base with your CPA about it first, if you have one. My CPA understands these rules so we usually check with him first.

Here are a few recommendations to get quotes from, and I recommend getting quotes for both a heat pump AND a high efficiency A/C and determine which solution is right for your biz and property:

- Total Mechanical Solutions https://www.totalmechanicalsolutionsco.com/

- The Weather Changers https://theweatherchangers.com/

- My Electric Home https://myelectrichome.org/

I'm a landlord myself and we're currently weighing our options for our rental right now. I've heard too many horror stories about swamp coolers leaking, causing mold and ruining roofs.

I'm also a GREEN-designated REALTOR and I spend A LOT of time researching and practicing sustainability, but at the end of the day, it has to make sense for your business. If your plan is to buy and hold the property for several years, I strongly recommend opting for the future-proof solution. Reach out with any questions!
4 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Brittany Guimond:

As long as you have ductwork in place, I strongly recommend NOT putting in A/C and instead going with a heat pump. Heat pumps are incredibly efficient, use far less energy than a conventional A/C, and are used all over the US and internationally in all sorts of climates. They are the way of the future and I suspect we'll start to see them more and more as energy costs continue to increase.
If you have the ductwork already, you should NOT need minisplits / head units on the interior walls (these can add up $$). This can be a differentiator from the competition, for example say in your marketing description something like "save money on your energy bills in the summer!" (we do this now with one of our LTRs that has solar and it works).
What's more, you can use a heat pump in the winter too, so when your furnace finally goes out, you're covered with this ONE solution (versus needing to get another gas furnace, adding yet another benefit to tenants in that they can keep energy bills low all year round). And to be clear, you will need a furnace or a blower to run the heat pump, but if your heat pump is the device running the heating and cooling (vs the furnace itself), it will be cheaper to run and use less fossil fuels.
Cost-wise, installing a heat pump only should be comparable in price to an A/C. Also, the state of Colorado is expecting to see some additional tax rebates come out summer/fall 2024, so if you can wait it out one more summer, it might be worth it. However, it's unclear if those rebates will be available to landlords, right now the tax credits available through the inflation reduction act (different than the rebates I just mentioned) are only available to homeowners right now. Additionally, the city of Denver and Xcel also offer rebates, but your HVAC installer will know about those so just remember to ask.
All that to say, I recommend touching base with your CPA about it first, if you have one. My CPA understands these rules so we usually check with him first.
Here are a few recommendations to get quotes from, and I recommend getting quotes for both a heat pump AND a high efficiency A/C and determine which solution is right for your biz and property:
- Total Mechanical Solutions https://www.totalmechanicalsolutionsco.com/
- The Weather Changers https://theweatherchangers.com/
- My Electric Home https://myelectrichome.org/
I'm a landlord myself and we're currently weighing our options for our rental right now. I've heard too many horror stories about swamp coolers leaking, causing mold and ruining roofs.
I'm also a GREEN-designated REALTOR and I spend A LOT of time researching and practicing sustainability, but at the end of the day, it has to make sense for your business. If your plan is to buy and hold the property for several years, I strongly recommend opting for the future-proof solution. Reach out with any questions! #endsoapbox

Great points! Theres more to unpack though. 1st is the envelope that's being conditioned, so a blower door test, DLTO and total HERS rating. Remediation of air loss, duct sealing and then thermal conductance/resistance. Then duct loss mitigation & duct locations & thermal resistance in unconditional spaces. Hence Manual J.
Then equipment applications using formulas of kw to buy vs theres to btu. It's all in the math. Hence manual S & D. To note 2 story should always be 2 zone. High laminar flow registers especially with NO dampners. People should NEVER change the static pressure by opening and closing dampners.
Air loss will dictate a ERV based on fresh air exchanges. Its really great to see you and others getting on board with the evolution of conditioning systems is residential. FWIW we've been building hospitals, clean rooms and many other commercial buildings like this for decades. Unfortunately residential work has always been the lowest common demonitor.
2 Reply
Brittany Guimond
Realtor · New Castle, CO · Member since 2022 · 93 posts · 58 votes
2y
@Alan F. you are my people!! Haha, thanks for jumping in to expand on the bigger picture. You are lightyears ahead of me in terms of understanding the full scope. I think it illustrates the importance of talking to a few HVAC technicians (not just one) to better understand the whole cohesive picture on a property-by-property basis. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and on existing properties, it's incredibly dependent on the existing infrastructure, budget and rental strategy.
2 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Chris Seveney:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

That system will most likely be the most cost effective because it is most popular. that pricing does not seem awful depending on the SEER rating of the equipment you are getting. Definitely get several proposals.

Thank you Chris! I agree - multiple proposals needed.
1 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.

Thanks Alan. I had to look up the new Manual J, S & D standards - I had not heard that. Thank for directing my attention to it. Are those in place in CA? Do you happen to know if they are in CO? Asking to gauge the search for contractors with knowledge of it.

1 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.

Thanks Alan. I had to look up the new Manual J, S & D standards - I had not heard that. Thank for directing my attention to it. Are those in place in CA? Do you happen to know if they are in CO? Asking to gauge the search for contractors with knowledge of it.

They are being implemented in new construction, albeit slowly and dependent on volume of builders units. Local AHJ'S are a component of implementation. To wit some builders are mandated a KW max per square foot & left to their own volition. Unfortunately energy efficiency is slow to adaptation in residential. Cost to build, region etc creates a complicated mosaic to navigate. The old school is also highly resistant. Most C20's still perpetuate the arcane tribal formula of 1ton per 500sq ft. I'm not as proficient in Colorado, that being said CO looks to CA for the future.
Oh BTW make sure your new electrical panel has extra spaces for the future, is equipped with breakers that trip on both thermal and magnetic overloads and is permitted. You may also (depending on what code cycle the AHJ is on) need it to be "solar capable) best of luck. That building is worth "the love" lol
1 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Brittany Guimond:

@Alan F. you are my people!! Haha, thanks for jumping in to expand on the bigger picture. You are lightyears ahead of me in terms of understanding the full scope. I think it illustrates the importance of talking to a few HVAC technicians (not just one) to better understand the whole cohesive picture on a property-by-property basis. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and on existing properties, it's incredibly dependent on the existing infrastructure, budget and rental strategy.

Thank you Brittany (and Alan for expanding on it)! I have always been a fan of heat pump technology for my own personal use albeit I don't know what I don't know on it. Alan - I guess in my limited prior research on the subject I've come across the same thing - ie. less adoption and thus experience as of yet for residential use (contractors and municipalities). I guess we are in that early adoption phase for residential? I will need to balance my own desire for the technology with that practical side of the law of unintended consequences and putting a tenant through a significant impact to their living space and hiccups that could arise in what seems to still be a steep learning/adoption curve for the energy providers/contractors/local municipalities/and me :)
Are there examples of people here in Denver that have made the switch to a heat pump for heating and cooling and if so how have they heated on the colder days such like the recent low single digit to -20 F span we've been through? Also, curious of info on anyone who has implemented in 100 year old homes and what it entailed (how many systems required a complete re-do and at what expense)?
Thanks again for the help on this. Very much appreciated.
0 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.

Thanks Alan. I had to look up the new Manual J, S & D standards - I had not heard that. Thank for directing my attention to it. Are those in place in CA? Do you happen to know if they are in CO? Asking to gauge the search for contractors with knowledge of it.

They are being implemented in new construction, albeit slowly and dependent on volume of builders units. Local AHJ'S are a component of implementation. To wit some builders are mandated a KW max per square foot & left to their own volition. Unfortunately energy efficiency is slow to adaptation in residential. Cost to build, region etc creates a complicated mosaic to navigate. The old school is also highly resistant. Most C20's still perpetuate the arcane tribal formula of 1ton per 500sq ft. I'm not as proficient in Colorado, that being said CO looks to CA for the future.
Oh BTW make sure your new electrical panel has extra spaces for the future, is equipped with breakers that trip on both thermal and magnetic overloads and is permitted. You may also (depending on what code cycle the AHJ is on) need it to be "solar capable) best of luck. That building is worth "the love" lol

Thanks Alan!!
1 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.

Thanks Alan. I had to look up the new Manual J, S & D standards - I had not heard that. Thank for directing my attention to it. Are those in place in CA? Do you happen to know if they are in CO? Asking to gauge the search for contractors with knowledge of it.

They are being implemented in new construction, albeit slowly and dependent on volume of builders units. Local AHJ'S are a component of implementation. To wit some builders are mandated a KW max per square foot & left to their own volition. Unfortunately energy efficiency is slow to adaptation in residential. Cost to build, region etc creates a complicated mosaic to navigate. The old school is also highly resistant. Most C20's still perpetuate the arcane tribal formula of 1ton per 500sq ft. I'm not as proficient in Colorado, that being said CO looks to CA for the future.
Oh BTW make sure your new electrical panel has extra spaces for the future, is equipped with breakers that trip on both thermal and magnetic overloads and is permitted. You may also (depending on what code cycle the AHJ is on) need it to be "solar capable) best of luck. That building is worth "the love" lol

Thanks Alan!!

Yeah the renta paradigm makes it more challenging, but more info makes it better for you to decide what's best for your application. Yep HP (really just exchangers) will need electrical heater strips for supplemental) Enthalpy calculations tell that story but resi HVAC guys rarely know this.
1 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Garrett D.:

Since it was -10 here yesterday I figured what better time to ask a question of you all regarding AC :). consider it planning ahead.
We have a SFH in the Highlands neighborhood (what has become a more upscale area) in Denver which currently has a swamp cooler. The swamp cooler is on its last legs and while replacing it is an option, it seems many of the similar SFH's rentals and certainly all the newer apartments in the area now have moved to AC.
My question is - What options do you recommend for the most cost effective install of AC in your rental houses? Have you gone with Central Air? I have heard of mini-splits but have no experience? Are there other options? Or have you proposed to tenants for them to purchase floor standing units, or possibly provided them yourself - And if so how have you set such up so they can be vented securely? (some tenants have understandable concerns with having a vent in a window).
I have received a ball park estimate of ~$15 - $17K for Central AC, New Furnace, and New Electric Panel.
We do plan to have a new electric panel installed for other reasons regardless of whether we upgrade to AC or not. The furnace is 20yrs old but operating fine (with exception that its a little oversized for the house and at least according to one HVAC tech apparently the motor runs on the higher side of normal amps range). I'd rather leave not replace an operational furnace simply due to age.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/thoughts/considerations/conversations on this topic.

Garrett

Swamp coolers are a great way to cool in a low humidity environment. The energy load is substantially less than a compressor.
Since the house is already an FAU I'd run standard AC or covert to a heat pump.
Heat pump tech has improved greatly & some work down 10 degrees farenheit, heat strips then pick up the gap. Very efficient.
Chances are the older system has substantial duct loss and should be tested.
Mini splits have their place but cold air is heavier and drops so the bottom floor doesn't make sense.
Electric motors do not raise in load consumption as they age, it's the mechanical work done that raises load, typically deferred maintenance on belts, shives and pulleys.
I'd disqualify HVAC companies by asking; Are you proficient in the new Manual J,S & D standards (that will be required in the industry moving forward)
These companies will understand laminar flow, stratification and static airflow imbalances that have a great effect on efficiency, operation and longevity of a conditioning system.
Get 3 estimates, compare scope & make sure its permitted. I'd also be there in person during inspections.

Thanks Alan. I had to look up the new Manual J, S & D standards - I had not heard that. Thank for directing my attention to it. Are those in place in CA? Do you happen to know if they are in CO? Asking to gauge the search for contractors with knowledge of it.

They are being implemented in new construction, albeit slowly and dependent on volume of builders units. Local AHJ'S are a component of implementation. To wit some builders are mandated a KW max per square foot & left to their own volition. Unfortunately energy efficiency is slow to adaptation in residential. Cost to build, region etc creates a complicated mosaic to navigate. The old school is also highly resistant. Most C20's still perpetuate the arcane tribal formula of 1ton per 500sq ft. I'm not as proficient in Colorado, that being said CO looks to CA for the future.
Oh BTW make sure your new electrical panel has extra spaces for the future, is equipped with breakers that trip on both thermal and magnetic overloads and is permitted. You may also (depending on what code cycle the AHJ is on) need it to be "solar capable) best of luck. That building is worth "the love" lol

Thanks Alan!!

Yeah the renta paradigm makes it more challenging, but more info makes it better for you to decide what's best for your application. Yep HP (really just exchangers) will need electrical heater strips for supplemental) Enthalpy calculations tell that story but resi HVAC guys rarely know this.

@Alan F. I so agree. And there is a ton of information here to work with! Thanks again!
1 Reply
Tim JacobPro Member
Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
2y
I can tell you if it's already ducted if there is enough space between the plenum and furnace it mi gght be economic with a condenser. Last time I did 1 was 5 years ago. It was just $3500 per unit here for that including the coil. I'm sure now it would be 4 or 4.5k but not bad. This assumes you have suffice power at 100 amp service per unit.
If not that will cost you. Remember that new code requires arc faults if you need to change your breaker location if you go the permiting route. That could lead to a complete home rewiring of all old wiring of the preromex era as the arc faults trip on old wiring. Now its probably 20k unless you are an electrician. Without ductwork I recommend the mini split and as has been stated it's going to cost serious money well over 10k or you can go with ductwork which will be close and then your dealing with more drywall, painting, low lying ceilings, etc.
1 Reply
Jassem A.
Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
2y
Mini splits are cheap if you DIY and expensive usually if you don't. They are like 300-500 for AC only models and 400-700 for ones that do heat (1 ton). They come pre-charged and are pretty easy to install.
1 Reply
Bud Gaffney
Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
mini split systems are great and a fraction of the cost.
1 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Tim Jacob:

I can tell you if it's already ducted if there is enough space between the plenum and furnace it mi gght be economic with a condenser. Last time I did 1 was 5 years ago. It was just $3500 per unit here for that including the coil. I'm sure now it would be 4 or 4.5k but not bad. This assumes you have suffice power at 100 amp service per unit.
If not that will cost you. Remember that new code requires arc faults if you need to change your breaker location if you go the permiting route. That could lead to a complete home rewiring of all old wiring of the preromex era as the arc faults trip on old wiring. Now its probably 20k unless you are an electrician. Without ductwork I recommend the mini split and as has been stated it's going to cost serious money well over 10k or you can go with ductwork which will be close and then your dealing with more drywall, painting, low lying ceilings, etc.

Thank you Tim! This is very helpful. The condensers units seem to have gone up here close to 2x but then again the last I dealt with it was in the midst of 2020 so supply constraints were likely at work as well. That one was on newer home which was already pre-plumbed for the unit so quite an easy decision at that point despite the pain in the cost.
0 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Jassem A.:

Mini splits are cheap if you DIY and expensive usually if you don't. They are like 300-500 for AC only models and 400-700 for ones that do heat (1 ton). They come pre-charged and are pretty easy to install.

Thanks Jassem! That must be the distinction between the high and low costs I have come upon for mini-splits. It has perplexed me, if the units are inexpensive is it just that much labor to install one that paying to have one installed impacts the price that dramatically?
0 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
Quote from @Bud Gaffney:

mini split systems are great and a fraction of the cost.

Thanks @Bud Gaffney! It sounds like you must have a very cost effective installer, or maybe you install them yourself?
0 Reply
Leo R.
Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
2y
@Garrett D. re: the old (but still working fine) furnace. I've experienced that scenario many times, and just experienced it recently.
In general, I've always kept old furnaces in use as long as they're working fine, but it's obviously a dice roll.
A few weeks ago, a furnace at one of my rentals bit the dust. Of course it happened the moment I left town (first time I had left town in 4+ months), and of course it happened on new year's eve at 6 pm, and OF COURSE it happened when a cold front was approaching. I swear, it's like the damn thing KNEW the absolute worst moment to kick the bucket--not a good scenario. Luckily, I have an absolute rock star HVAC guy who handled it. I also had a plan in-place to take care of the tenants in this type of scenario (I have space heaters, generators, military blankets and other supplies on standby for emergencies)...but, without a plan in place, and the best HVAC pro in the business to respond at 6 pm on New Year's Eve, I would've been in deep trouble...needless to say, I gave my HVAC guy a serious tip for helping to save the day...
In this case, the furnace could be repaired for about $1,250, or replaced for around $5k. At that point, I had a decision: do I sink $1,250 into a 25 year old furnace (that would probably have more problems on the horizon), or do I bite the bullet and pay $5k for the new one? In this case, I got a new furnace, because I figured that sinking $1,250 into an old furnace would be a poor use of money. Was that the right choice? Who knows...this business is filled with uncertainties...
Good luck out there!
1 Reply
Garrett D.Pro Member
OP
CO · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 8 votes
2y
@Leo R. Thank you for this! Its murphys law isnt it. I think you made the right decision in that case. 1.25 vs 5 for a 25hr old furnace- do the 5 all day long. Keep that good HVAC person happy - They are the key to a good life IMHO.

0 Reply
Tim JacobPro Member
Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
2y
If you have a 3 bedroom or more the amount of zones could make a condenser more economic negating install. When I had mine installed it was about 50% labor don't know if that's the case for mini split. Also wonder what other costs would be associated like the coil and the heat pump itself and not just the zones which can add up on a large enough place.
Furthermore if you replace the furnace with a heat pump what sort of actual heat will it produce. I have seen mini splits work great here is Maryland. The thing is they only work great in upper unit apartments with a high level of resonant heat from a lower unit. If there is no heat source from below I would not recommend them as this time if year you will have issues and need to provide additional space heaters. They do work great for ac or supplemental heat. If you really want to do that maybe add additional baseboard heaters on the lowest finished level.
Furnaces in my opinion are a lot more durable and have a longer life than ac and especially since the old freon is so expensive these days. My furnaces are old 20 plus years old and doing very well and many of the units I manage have ones from the 90s or earlier. You can tell from the color of the flame. The gas valve might need to be changed. If it absolutely needs changing the replacement should last longer than the mini splits.
Mini splits certainly have their place but not in a larger ducted unit. More a smaller unit with ductwork preferably with either supplemental heat from below or in an area of the country that's warmer and I don't think Denver qualifies.
1 Reply
Jassem A.
Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
2y
Quote from @Garrett D.:

Quote from @Jassem A.:

Mini splits are cheap if you DIY and expensive usually if you don't. They are like 300-500 for AC only models and 400-700 for ones that do heat (1 ton). They come pre-charged and are pretty easy to install.

Thanks Jassem! That must be the distinction between the high and low costs I have come upon for mini-splits. It has perplexed me, if the units are inexpensive is it just that much labor to install one that paying to have one installed impacts the price that dramatically?

Yes the labor to install them can be extremely high even though sometimes it only takes an hour to install if the wire is already ran or you are hooking up to 110V. I've installed about 20 of them and usually averaged about an hour to install sometimes a couple hours if I have to run a new wire.
1 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
To piggyback off @Brittany Guimond and @Alan F....
Mini-splits are becoming a good choice today because of the lowering costs. And they are absolutely the best choice if you are looking for the most efficient energy -friendly solution.
Re Heat Pumps, yes they are a good choice, but like most central conditioning systems, you have to heat/cool the entire house just to get one area to the temp you want. Also they have a drawback or two: 1) they don't work under 18 degrees (which I assume it reaches in Colorado :-) and you'll need to install a separate 50A circuit with electric strip assist...2) they don't really warm the interior air the way many people prefer, they blow out cool-feeling air instead of hot air like a typical FAU system. A lot of people don't like them....just check them out before you decide.
If you can make it so you can afford mini-splits, I would go that route. It's a huge upgrade and is considered the cool way to go.
3 Reply

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