Should I hold these properties long term or cash in now?

Should I hold these properties long term or cash in now?

Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes

These properties are probably different than 98% of people on here deal with, but it is my line of business and has been for a long time. Hunting property. I buy, sale and hold, property that is used for hunting and recreation from 30 to 1000 acres, sometimes vacant land I improve, sometimes I build cabins, etc. a lot of different scenarios. For the sake of time I will tell you about a recent scenario. I have a few deals like this one and my instinct is to go long term instead of flipping. 

I bought 60 acres, for $60k, of vacant land unimproved to turn into a duck hunting property. It has the right terrain and geography. I built a levy with a bulldozer to hold water for the waterfowl that cost $6000 and put in an irrigation well, for $12000, to guarantee water year to year. With another couple of small things I have $80K in the property. I can easily lease this property for $8000 a year increasing to $10000 within a couple of years. Once the property is leased it is maintenance free the only thing I have to pay are the taxes, which are about $150 a year. The rent goes up every year and the property appreciates. HOWEVER, I could sale the property $150k yielding and gross profit of $70k. 

This is where I yield to the experts. Should I keep the virtually passive income property? Or since there is an 87% return instantly, should I sell? Thanks guys I await your comments and advice.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
11y

@Harry Asnien   As long as Dick Cheney is not hunting there insurance should be fine.

@Justin Glass   Nice niche'  I like it.. one thought would be to hold on to these for a few years so you can 1031 them then roll all of them up so you get enough cash to reinvest in a Class A professionally managed income property that sends off true mail money and call it a day.

Although I bet its a lot of fund to build dam's and improve your properties and have free place's to go hunt and meet different folks etc etc.

And in your area you have the freedom to do these things to the properties out west we can't just go build ponds etc water rights are intense and tightly control.. that includes wells and damming up any free flowing water.

Nice Job

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  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Mound, MN · Member since 2010 · 87 posts · 32 votes
    11y

    I think you are missing part of the answer which is - what will you do with the money should you cash out?

    Right now you are getting approximately 10% pre-tax on your investment (assuming your rental estimate is correct).

    What will you do with the 150k (less taxes & selling costs) should you sell and would that allow you a similar return?

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    The rental estimate is correct because I have other properties similar to this one already leased. I like the fact that no one calls me and tells me they need a new water heater or that their toilet is stopped up, because the properties are maintenance free once they are rented. This is what I do for a living so I guess a simple answer would be that I would "live" off of the money should I sale. Most properties are paid for in cash as well. Just wondering what is better, to flip properties like this or lease them long term.

  • Investor · Mandeville, LA · Member since 2013 · 75 posts · 14 votes
    11y

    My co-worker and I were talking about this yesterday. What is the liability insurance like for a hunting property the size of what you described above and was that factored into your numbers? 

  • Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2011 · 833 posts · 499 votes
    11y

    @Justin Glass 

    Keep it, I'll bring my 12 gauge and do some hunting!  It sounds like a great project, and you've definitely added value which means you sir are a savvy investor.

    To @Bill Wallace 's point, it depends on what you plan to do once you sell the property.  I'm guessing you paid cash for it, in which case your return on equity is around 3.3%, not great!  Your cash on cash return is decent at around 10%.  

    If you have another investment in mind, say a flip or rental unit(s), figure out what your return will be on those and make the best financial decision.

    Another idea would be to refinance the property at 70% loan to value.  You would get 105k cash out to invest, and still passively cash flow on the land.

    Your payment would be around $500 a month, and with little to no capital expenses you would still cash flow, and your return on equity would actually improve.  2000 year cash flow / 45k equity = 4.4%

    Keep us updated!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Harry Asnien   As long as Dick Cheney is not hunting there insurance should be fine.

    @Justin Glass   Nice niche'  I like it.. one thought would be to hold on to these for a few years so you can 1031 them then roll all of them up so you get enough cash to reinvest in a Class A professionally managed income property that sends off true mail money and call it a day.

    Although I bet its a lot of fund to build dam's and improve your properties and have free place's to go hunt and meet different folks etc etc.

    And in your area you have the freedom to do these things to the properties out west we can't just go build ponds etc water rights are intense and tightly control.. that includes wells and damming up any free flowing water.

    Nice Job

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    @Harry Asnien 

    I make all my hunting clubs carry insurance as part of the lease. They add me on as additionally insured. Cost of the insurance is about $200-250 per year.

    @Andrew Davis @Jay Hinrichs 

    You guys are a lot smarter than I am when it comes to the mathematics of these investments for sure. When I flip larger properties on average I make around 25% return for a minimum and the "sky is the limit" on the max lol. Those are my bread and butter and how I make my living. I take that profit to live and invest in properties like these instead of rent houses, for the lack of maintenance that they have.

    As long as the numbers work out I can "get my money back" in around 8 years. I figured these were good investments and a place to put money rather than the bank, I enjoy the properties because they are hunting properties which is what I love to do and the return is very passive. I also always have the opportunity to sale and cash in at any time I may need the money.

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    @Andrew Davis 

    Also wouldn't my ROE be

    8000 per year/150k equity 5.3%

    10000 per year/150k equity 6.6%

    ROI 10000 per year/80k invested 12.5%

    Are these not good numbers? Pardon my ignorance, A lot of these mathematics are relatively new to me. In the past I have just known that I have made more than I spent,(jokingly of course) but seriously in the past year and a half I have started following bigger pockets and paying more attention to things of this nature.

  • Millersville, MD · Member since 2015 · 140 posts · 47 votes
    11y

    As a duck hunter I like your strategy!  Unfortunately where I live, land is much to expensive for this to work. Have you thought about "share cropping" on any of these properties.  Having a local farmer work the land and sharing the proceeds with you.  It could be a quick way to add revenue with little to no cash output from you.  Also, having agriculture such as corn or rice on the property would dramatically improve the hunting.  Drain the pond, and plant it.  Right before the hunting season starts, flood the pound.  People in my area pay top dollar for flooded impoundments. 

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    It really depends on your ability to keep finding similar deals.  If you can find a lot, then flip, if they are scarce then hold on to them long term, if availability is somewhere in the middle then keep the best rentals and flip the rest.

  • Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2011 · 833 posts · 499 votes
    11y

    @Justin Glass 

    Yes sir, bad math on my part, that's what I get for responding pre-coffee.

    If you didn't refinance, those would be your ROE #'s.  I just know you can do a lot better in most markets.

    For example: I'm working on a duplex at the moment that will give me a ROE of around 20% and a COC return of around 40%. I'm self-managing, but even with property manager taking 10%, the numbers are still great.

    @Jay Hinrichs I chuckled on that Cheney joke, well played.

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    @Jim Brown 

    One of the properties I have I do lease to a local farmer, and do get an annual return on that. I also agree the more crops I have the better the hunting is. I usually let my hunters plant their own impoundments, usually a mix of corn, soybeans, millet and milo.

    @Cal C. 

    Good advice. These smaller properties are more scarce and have to be in the right place because of their size and have to have other obvious physical properties. There are a lot more larger properties that I will fix up in the same way and flip. I currently have 286 acres, 343 acres, and 230 acres that have waterfowl impoundments that are some projects to flip.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    11y

    Could you get this land financed? That may be best of both worlds, get a sizeable chunk of money back and great cash flow as well.

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    @Andrew Davis @Andrew Syrios 

    That is some pretty creative financing. I have never thought about anything like that. There are not enough available properties, that meet the criteria, to make a lot of monthly cash flow by financing it. The lease would pay the note in all my circumstances, and that makes for a good 10 year plan. However, its a place for me to put some money and I really never liked owing anybody money anyway. Guess that's the dave ramsey side of me lol. You guys definitely have my wheels turning about some other types of investments though. From my stand point I love hunting so this is as close as I can get to hunting for a living!

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 592 posts · 765 votes
    11y

    This is a pure finance question, imo. Your IRR on this deal is somewhere around 12% (give or take depending on your expected annual bump in lease income). Refer below for IRR based on different growth rates in income/taxes:

    So you keep it if you can't currently find another project in that can beet 12% IRR, and you sell it or refi if you do have other projects that perform better than 12% and you need the cash liquidity in order to fund that deal.

  • Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    I was going to start a new post about something similar but these replies are good. 

    Since the massive increase in prices over the last 4 years, I have been considering cashing out.  Properties that we picked up for $50k-$60k are going for $150k-$200k, a 400% increase, while rents have only gone from $1,000 to $1,500, a 50% increase.  But who wants to sell and pay 25% taxes and even then, what are you going to do with the money before the next buying cycle that even comes close?

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 592 posts · 765 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Charles Marchiondo:

    I was going to start a new post about something similar but these replies are good. 

    Since the massive increase in prices over the last 4 years, I have been considering cashing out.  Properties that we picked up for $50k-$60k are going for $150k-$200k, a 400% increase, while rents have only gone from $1,000 to $1,500, a 50% increase.  But who wants to sell and pay 25% taxes and even then, what are you going to do with the money before the next buying cycle that even comes close?

     1031 is applicable to commercial land is it not?  To my understanding, the rules are also pretty broad.  You could exchange a strip of land for a rental house if you wanted to.

  • Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Frank Jiang:
    Originally posted by @Charles Marchiondo:

    I was going to start a new post about something similar but these replies are good. 

    Since the massive increase in prices over the last 4 years, I have been considering cashing out.  Properties that we picked up for $50k-$60k are going for $150k-$200k, a 400% increase, while rents have only gone from $1,000 to $1,500, a 50% increase.  But who wants to sell and pay 25% taxes and even then, what are you going to do with the money before the next buying cycle that even comes close?

     1031 is applicable to commercial land is it not?  To my understanding, the rules are also pretty broad.  You could exchange a strip of land for a rental house if you wanted to.

     Frank,

    I'm not sure about 1031 commercial.  I've only ever been involved in residential.  Our trouble now is finding good stuff to 1031 into.

  • Middletown, NJ · Member since 2011 · 108 posts · 22 votes
    11y

    Are any of these plots of land in the path of developement? Any chance a developer comes in and offers way more in a few years?

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    Okay, so I'm very new to all this information seeing as how I'm starting to gain interest in investing. I have a few baby questions, don't laugh at me for asking these haha.

    1. What's a '1031'?

    2. What does 'ROE' stand for?

    3. What does 'COC' stand for?

    Thanks in advance! Trying to understand the investor lingo as I go.

  • Middletown, NJ · Member since 2011 · 108 posts · 22 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Broderick Campbell:

    Okay, so I'm very new to all this information seeing as how I'm starting to gain interest in investing. I have a few baby questions, don't laugh at me for asking these haha.

    1. What's a '1031'?

    2. What does 'ROE' stand for?

    3. What does 'COC' stand for?

    Thanks in advance! Trying to understand the investor lingo as I go.

     1. It is a tax deferment strategy, in which you trade one asset for a like-kind one.  Ex: a rental house for an apartment building. There are specific rules to it. 

    2. Return on equity. The percentage return based on the equity in an asset. 

    3. Cash on cash return. The percentage return based on the cash an investor has into the asset. 

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    Thank You @Mike D. Greatly appreciated!

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Broderick Campbell:

    Okay, so I'm very new to all this information seeing as how I'm starting to gain interest in investing. I have a few baby questions, don't laugh at me for asking these haha.

    1. What's a '1031'?

    2. What does 'ROE' stand for?

    3. What does 'COC' stand for?

    Thanks in advance! Trying to understand the investor lingo as I go.

    1. A Starker 1031 exchange - defers taxes on the sale of investment real estate.

    2. ROE - return on equity 

    3. COC - Cash on Cash - how quickly are you getting back the cash you put into an investment

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    Thank you @Jesse T. thank you for helping me out!

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y

    What are your thoughts on the long-term value of the land?  Does it have more appreciation potential than your other land?  Is a significant drop in price a possibility?

    It looks like a candidate to sell(especially if you can do so in a 1031 exchange) from the return on equity point of view.  However if it is earning a solid, but unspectacular rate of return and has the potential to have a huge increase - i.e. in the path of development or a particularly desirable property for other reasons, holding on could be the right call.

  • Real Estate Investor · De Kalb, TX · Member since 2013 · 21 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    @Jesse T. 

    I don't see the land going down in value at all. The real estate crash didn't real affect property that I owned very much because it is recreation. It is not in a development area.  I don't forsee it doubling in price or anything but the "rent" could easily double in price, for several reasons.

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