Validate the 50% rule

Validate the 50% rule

Will BarnardPro Member
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Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

It has been agressively stated here on BP that operating expenses average 50% of gross rents. I have posted many times that while that may be true with some properties, it is not accurate or appropriate to use this percentage on all properties (speaking of residential 1-4 units only).

I have stated that when you have gross rents of $400-$700 monthly, it will most likely average out to be in the ballpark of 50%, but as rents increase to amounts above $1000 per month, the ratio or percentage decreases due to a variety of factors (which will not be explained here).

The purpose of this post is to get some viable data from many individuals who have rental units with monthly rental rates in excess of $1,000 (per door) and have at least 3 years of financials. So, if you have property which fits this criteria, Please respond here with the following: (Take all the years you have owned the property(ies) and combine all the amounts listed below, then divide by the number of years to get an accurate annual average):

Gross rents
Actual annual operating expense figures (fixed expenses - taxes, insurance, PM, utilities, etc.)
operating expense reserves (items which do not occur regularly such as repairs, maintenance, vacancy, damage, advertising, legal, etc.) Please include what you have personally experienced with your properties only!
Then list your capital expense reserves (although this is not actually an operating expense, accounting wise, for avoidance of arguments sake, let's include it)
Finally, we can now arrive at your NOI, so post that as well.

Note: If you have multiple properties, combine all the figures as one and note how many properties (actual doors) the figures represent. Once we have had at least 100 doors represented by many posters, I will compile the numbers and see what operating expense ratio was averaged. If we get a rapid number of posts which quickly total more than 100 doors, we can move the figure up to 200 or more before I compile the numbers. The more data entered, the more accurate the average should be. Let's have some fun with this! :lol:

I will post updates here on the figures as we get enough to compile.

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Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
17y

Merry Christmas to all!! I'm in Cancun and this is not what I wanted to be doing this morning, but I disagee with using this 50% as a catch all %.
Here are 2 things I've found in owning oVER than 1000 residences for rent.
1. There is a distinct difference between low price and higher priced rentals. As rent goes up , % goes down,,period
2. If you own in TX and rent for $1000 per month, JUST your taxes may be 25% per month of your rent, while other states might be 4% per month. (MS)
There are other items that cause a big difference, i.e. age of property, and condition of property. If you stick with newer properties, the % will be less than 50%, imo.
The 50% is ok as a general thing, especially for newbies as a starting point, but there are so many other conditions that will affect the %.

p.s. I currently have 11 properties at $975 or higher. All are less than 5 years old and my % is CONSIDERABLY less than the 50%, fwiw.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    17y

    Jon, in the Landlording forum there are several sticky threads discussing this issue. I believe the general feeling is that since maintenance is a small slice of the equation, and that most maintenance is caused by tenants and not the property itself, that property age is not a big factor. Maybe a small factor.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    Thanks Jon, that helps clarify. Another variable that has probably been dealt with is the average age of the portfolio. Expenses will run higher on a portfolio with an average age of 60 years vs. 5-10 years. Anyone mind addressing that linking to where it's discussed?

    Thanks
    The numbers don't really show that.

    If you stay on top of the preventative and corrective maintenance your expense structure won't change much. Obviously, a 60 year old property what was neglected for 10 years is going to be in worse apparent shape than a 10 year old even minimally maintained property.

    However, you should be setting aside reserves for major rehabs. Eventually, you will rehab the kitchen and bathrooms or you will find it harder to rent and your rents will be lower.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Amy Larson:
    It seems to me that you and MikeOH are in an ongoing battle on the site about this 50% rule and you don't want to let it go. It seems that you're unhappy that people haven't posted anything to validate your view on the topic in this discussion. You seem to have posted the topic today, a holiday for many people, but don't have the patience to see how the thread advances without complaining about the few who have commented already.
    Amy, in contrast to your posted opinion, I am not in any ongoing battle with anyone, including Mike or any rule for that matter. All I was focused on in this created thread was to perform a mathematical experiment (for lack of a better term). That is it. All that was posted thereafter was negative comment. That is dissapointing, but I will not lose sleep over it. I waited for several posts before making my response, so I felt I was more than patient, I just received nothing for it.
    No worries there, that is not how I operate, unlike many others. I appreciate your point of view, but I think you have simply taken my position wrong and I am just as tired of the appeared need to prove others wrong as you are, perhaps even more tired of it. Just for your info to set the record straight, it is not my intemtion here or anywhere to disprove the 50% rule, I have only offered my knowledge and personal experience on the subject which differs from the rule and I have been attacked for it.
    As far as the day I posted this, it was very late Tuesday night Dec. 23 where I live. I do see my post represents just after midnight so it does say Dec 24, but I did not work on X-mas Eve, X-mas Day, or even until just now the day after X-mas, hence my tardy response to your post and all the others. It appears that you and several othres made all the following responses on the holidays, I expected to receive them after.
  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by MikeOH:
    As we have seen here MANY times before, having people combine all their expenses is pointless, because most people don't even know what the expenses are. If you really want to do this, people need to list all the individual expenses, so we can see what they are ommitting or considering "off budget".
    At any rate, if anyone is going to post, please post all the individual expenses so that we can ensure everything is included.
    Mike
    No need to get your trousers in a twist, if you read my post, it explained that only experienced longer term investors with properties of specific criteria post. It also explained in detail to include each and every possible and actual expense, so "off-budget items" are irrelevant as they were instructed to include them all, not just PITI and management.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    "Do you really think you are going to get many investors who are getting 1000 bucks per unit? I would think that most of us fall between the $400 to $800 per unit range." I absolutely expected it as there are hundreds of thousnads of units in the country with rents above $1000 per door. In fact, in my current portfolio, only two of my single family residences have rents below $1000 per month, all the others have above.

    Originally posted by Taz:
    You are right. I absolutely should not have stepped in and took a whiz on your thread.
    Thank you Taz for saying that. I appreciate the fact that you took the higher road, something not often done these days.

    Originally posted by nationwidepi:
    The thread was not created with intent to discuss, prove, or disprove a 50% oe rule

    The title you chose says otherwise.
    While the title does say that, it was not the intent. I had a discussion with others about titles to threads and it was determined that a "catchy" named thread would receive better views and responses, not to say that you just completely mis-represent the topic. That was the reason for the title of the thread and nothing more. :D

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Taz:
    Now, here is what I ask of you, nationwidepi. First, at least provide the same data in summary form for your holdings. Second, either point me to the thread where you have explained your business model or explain it here. What is the driving factor in how you expect to make money? What things are you willing to trade off to obtain your primary metric?

    For example, my partners and I value cash flow OVER expected appreciation. We will readily accept little or no appreciation if the cash flow or the potential to build higher cash flows exist in the deal. This means when we buy, it is at a steep discount.

    Taz, my business model or everyone else's does not matter here for this thread. I don't even care if someone's property posted had no cash flow. It is irrelevant. The experiment was to see what the average "ratio" of expenses are. Now, I don't want Mike or anyone else jumping down my throught on this comment either. I am not saying that I don't want or have cash flow, simply to say that this is an operting expense experiment/data collection only.
    As far as my single family holdings, I will post them as well, or would have if everyone would have followed the thread's posted instructions rather than ignore them and only attack the attempted data collection attempt.

    I agree that some investors value cash flow more than others and some don't even need it, they may want tax shelter, appreciation, or some other form of upside. Rich Weese posted several examples and fine points of view! But cash flow or not, one business model over another, this post was to compile data from investors with a min. of 3 years on SFR's with gross monthly rental units above $1000 per month. At the end, I would have calculated all the data (and all this data would include ALL the ACTUAL expenses, including capital expenses & vacancies, per instructions), and then we would have an average ratio of gross rents to expenses with units that fit this criteria.
    No argument over the rule, no proving anyone right or wrong, just a simple and to me, fun data collection accumulation.
    I do know that over the past 5 years, my SFR's have not ever hit a 50% mark or even a 45% mark and I pay for management! This is my experience only, and not to say that everyone experiences this. Rich also eleuded to the same fact and he has been investing for 5 times as long as me! :lol: Go Rich!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jon Holdman:
    Jon, Yes, the "50% rule" includes all the money you spend or don't collect. That's everything that's truly expenses -- management, maintenance, utilities if you pay them, taxes, insurance, legal costs, tenant damage, etc. It also includes capital items (e.g., new furnace) that aren't expenses for the IRS, but do come out of your pocket. It also includes vacancy.

    Now, if you mean the rehab costs you would pay to make a new purchase rentable, then, no, I do not include those. I lump those costs in with the purchase price to determine my "all in" cost of the property. That's the same as the IRS. Costs incurred to get the property rent ready adjust your basis rather than being treated as expenses.
    I don't disagree with you Jon, but by this explanation, couldn't someone factor any and all future capital expenses into their acquisition costs rather than deduct it from their operating expenses and cash flow? This is precisley the point I have made several times in many other threads. Capital expenses can come from a reserve account and factored in as acquisition costs, rather than relying on taking it from cash flow. Either way is fine, I don't push one way or another, but I do prefer and personally do it that way rather than from the OE.
    That said, for THIS thread, I instructed all to include them so we could have an apples to apples comparison.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    OK, but typically I'll amortize and depreciate those CapEx's. I put a new HVAC into a property this summer. $26K. I am not going to expense that for me, my banker, or Uncle Sam. I'm going to depreciate it.
    Jon, you are exactly right and that is exactly how it is done with our CPA's for tax purposes as well. But, for the sake of this thread only, I asked that everyone include capital expenses as the 50% rule factors them in. This way we have an apples to apples data collection and comparison.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Taz:
    The thing is, somehow, some way you must be accounting for what you are going to have to spend in the future if your intent is to hold for the long term. If you have enough properties, your pooling of these reserves performs much like an insurance pool. Something may happen and you may have to replace something earlier than anticipated but over the long haul, by setting aside the amounts you project, you build up enough reserves to keep your business running smoothly when major repairs/replacements are needed.

    I hate to beat on this dead horse, but that is why the business model is so important.

    This is true Tz. An expense is an expense, capital or operating, but that does not mean that it MUST come from the cash flow in all business models. Regardless, while I think business models are important, for the sake of this thread, they are irrelevant. We were only looking to compile the data I mentioned previously and business models or $100 per door cash flow does not matter FOR THIS EXPERIMENT ONLY. (Not yelling at you Taz, just preventing a few words in my post from being minipulated)
  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by nationwidepi:
    Originally posted by Taz:
    The thing is, somehow, some way you must be accounting for what you are going to have to spend in the future if your intent is to hold for the long term. If you have enough properties, your pooling of these reserves performs much like an insurance pool. Something may happen and you may have to replace something earlier than anticipated but over the long haul, by setting aside the amounts you project, you build up enough reserves to keep your business running smoothly when major repairs/replacements are needed.

    I hate to beat on this dead horse, but that is why the business model is so important.
    This is true Taz. An expense is an expense, capital or operating, but that does not mean that it MUST come from the cash flow in all business models. Regardless, while I think business models are important, for the sake of this thread, they are irrelevant. We were only looking to compile the data I mentioned previously and business models or $100 per door cash flow does not matter FOR THIS EXPERIMENT ONLY. (Not yelling at you Taz, just preventing a few words in my post from being minipulated)

    Every expense either comes from the cash flow while you are holding the property or from the cash flow when you sell. No matter how you look at it, an investment is just a series of cash flows into and out of your pocket. Come on, nationwidepi, this is basic financial stuff every investor should know.

    From your post here, I get the impression you offset some of these expenses with profits when you sell. Which a discussion of your business model would confirm or deny. But, for discussion purposes here, I am going to presume that is what you do.

    Okay, fine. That is just another way of accounting for the same items I do. Which means it comes down to semantics and a shell game with expense buckets.

    For example, suppose we each buy the exact same identical in every way investment property. We both pay $100k, we hold it for 24 months, do $15K in repairs/rehabs/whatever just before we sell and sell for $150K. Over those 24 months we collect 48K in rent. I set aside the $15K from rents while I am collecting them and you don't.

    At the end, we net the same amount of money over the life of the investment, its just you "get" $15K more in rent than me, but $15K less from the sale proceeds than I do. It ends up a wash and our expense ratios are the same.

    If you reduce any real estate investment to a series of cash flows in and out, it is very easy to do an apples to apples comparison. It is also very easy to pick out the great investments from the so-so ones and the ones that will drive you into bankruptcy.

    BTW, it appears you are asking for a census of properties with line item expenses for each, I have no intention of doing that and would discourage anyone from posting that type of data in a place like this.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    I heard back from the intern, she is working on gathering the data between party times with her friends. Kids these days, lol!

    Anyway, as soon as she has the preliminary data available I will compile the summary and post it here. Then when the full report is ready, I will post the link to that too.

  • Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    17y

    As you guys know, I am NOT a numbers cruncher at all. I would love for you to analyze the following.

    10 one bedroom condominium units within the same complex.
    These are my 08 figures and please keep in mind they are actual:
    Gross Rent: $95,250.00 (Average $700-$725 per mo)
    Expenses:
    Legal $205.00
    Window Replacement: $720.00
    Repairs: $665.00
    Condo Maintenance: $18,392.00
    Sewer Tax: $1750.00
    RE Tax: $13,752.00
    CF: $59,766

    Keep in mind that there were no vacancies during 08. I keep my rents at about $75 per mo below market to retain my tenants and because I am lazy-I hate vacancies. Repair costs involved leaking toilets or faucets and I have hired a handyman to make these repairs. The only improvements I make upon vacancy depending on condition of unit is new carpeting and occasional appliance replacements such as stove, refrigerator or HVAC (thru the wall) as well as fresh paint.

  • Real Estate Investor · Myrtle creek , OR · Member since 2008 · 343 posts · 13 votes
    17y

    Ingred, It looks like your forgetting other expenses such as insurance, and HOA fee's.What about principle and interest payments? Jim

  • Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    17y

    Oops Yes i Did forget condo insurance I apologize - which is $1100 per year total (Blanket insurance provided through homeowners dues). We call HOA Dues condo maintenance around these parts but in reality it is the same thing. I don't have a P & I payment any longer; it took me 8 yrs to pay it off from my NOI.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    17y

    Ingrid,
    Thank's for sharing.

    I don't get your rent numbers, though. You say average rents are $700-725/unit. If I use $725 * 10 units * 12 months I get $87,000. You say $95,250, which works out to $793.75/unit, on average. Why the difference?

    Using those numbers, your expenses come out to 38.4%. Nice.

    I could make an argument that if your rents are under market by $75/unit/month that you have an "economic vacancy" of that amount. That's how you would account for "first month free" type deals. We've done a bunch of this to try to fill up our mini-storage. That works out to $9000/year. That would bump your expenses up to 43.7%, since the 50% rule is premised on the scheduled rent, not the actual collected rent. Still seems like you're doing quite well with these units.

  • Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    17y

    Jon, you are correct. I told you I hate the NUMBERS!!! I ran a report and included the income from a different unit that isn't part of this property so $87,000 is correct. Another thing to consider is that I don't have any mgmt fee as an expense or licensed plumbing repairs which would also increase the expense ratio I'm sure. It does produce a nice income but its not an area that you would like to live. The reason I had a window replacement this past year is because one of my tenants was laying on the couch when 2 bullet holes went through her living room window!! And she didn't move!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Taz:
    BTW, it appears you are asking for a census of properties with line item expenses for each, I have no intention of doing that and would discourage anyone from posting that type of data in a place like this.
    Not quite asking for line items Taz. Just a grouping of the average expenses over a three year+ period and to include all the expenses so we have a fair comparison. Not necessary to post: Insurance=x dollars, carpet replacement=Y dollars, etc., just lump all of them and post the total figures. Sorry if I was not clear on that.
    Originally posted by Taz:
    At the end, we net the same amount of money over the life of the investment, its just you "get" $15K more in rent than me, but $15K less from the sale proceeds than I do. It ends up a wash and our expense ratios are the same.
    I agree with you. This is just semantics as to cash in and cash out at the end of the day. My only point was from an accounting standpoint. Again, different business models make no difference for this data collection experiment. Just wanted the operating expenses, gross rents, and NOI posted. Makes no difference if you value cash flow over appreciation or vice versa for this thread only.
  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    17y

    Thanks. That makes expenses 42.1% based on the actuals, or 47.5% if you account for the economic vacancy.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Ingrid, thank you for sharing your personal experience with your rental units. Jon's math was correct and it appears that after you were to add in the below market rent as a vacancy deduction and include some management, you would be close to 50% operating expenses on your units.
    However, your listed monthly rent rates are well below $1000 per door and are not applicable to the listed criteria for this particular data collection, but thanks for sharing none the less, as you are the first to actually do so. :lol:

  • Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    17y

    Thank you guys for your analysis and your opinion. Unfortunately I don't have anything that meets the $1000 per month criteria.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by nationwidepi:
    My only point was from an accounting standpoint.
    Accounting has absolutely NOTHING to do with using the 50% OE rule of thumb. I see where this is going now and it is completely useless exercise as you have outlined.

    The 50% rule of thumb to estimate the likelihood of profitable cash flow has absolutely NOTHING to do with accounting entries.

    Depreciation is deductible but is NOT part of operating expenses for the purposes of the 50% rule of thumb.

  • Real Estate Broker · Jacksonville FL & Middletown, CT · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 633 votes
    17y

    For the lack of responses I'll contribute although I only have one years worth of data.
    However it is for a property that rented for $1350/month. This was a very average year (no major expenses).
    Income - 16,200
    Actual Expenses - 7339(includes one month vacancy not reduced from income)
    45%
    I dumped this after one year because for what I was in it for it was a loser. I bought this before I knew much about the reality of expenses and thought surely with an 800 P&I and 1350 income, this would work. Not quite so.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    For those who might still care about this topic...

    Here is the summary of the report:

    Operating Expense Study Using 2007 Data - Summary

  • Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Thank you for spending the money to do this analysis Taz!

    So, from this data, the 50% rule was accurate for all rent levels, which is not a surprise as this is really a subset of the numbers provided by the larger studies that represent hundreds of thousands of units in the US. I'm curious if you know what the total number of units that were included in your study (or a rough number). I'm a little surprised that the numbers were so tightly in the 45% to 50% range, unless a very large number of units were involved. I posted the numbers for my rental companies in October and as I recall they were in a range of about 40% to 60%. However, I attribute the variance in my numbers to the relatively small number of rentals in each company (10 to 12).

    Mike

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    Mike, I will get them to add the count but I know from the 80 sources used it was over 30,000 units total.

    Also, let's be very precise in stating what this data says...

    The 50% rule of thumb is valid as a gating factor to help prevent a negative cash flow situation. It does say expenses are 50% of income. There is a huge difference in those two things.

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