Our experience with a 203k

Our experience with a 203k

Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 17 votes
Our experience with a 203k loan: Stephanie came across this triplex on Zillow just searching and saw this triplex that had been listed on the market for quite some time. The price was reduced several times over the year so it was obvious that this would be a project. We went to see it and immediately knew it was going to need a lot of work, maybe just not the extent of it right away. The property was a triplex on 1.25 acres with two units upstairs, one large unit downstairs. The upstairs units were 2 bedrooms one bath with the downstairs was a turned in basement into a 3 bedroom 1 bath (it wasn’t designed well). The yard was cleared with old fencing and mounds of junk around the property from the tenants. It was obviously the owners neglected it for years. This home was in such rough shape, it would not have qualified for a general FHA loan. As new investors, we knew we wouldn’t be able to afford the rehab out of our own pocket so we looked into an FHA 203k loan. After finding a mortgage broker that would do a 203k loan, it’s limited here in Alaska, we found a hired a HUD consultant (required for the 203k loan) to do a minimum property standards inspection. This inspection is a bit different than your common inspection as it is really assessing safety and function of the building. As the HUD consultant was the third party between us in the bank, we spent the time to ask questions and discuss our plans for the renovation. The inspection comes back and these items had to be included to the project to be completed. We started to work with a specialty contractor as an acquaintance to get some bids. We decided to go look up all materials for ourselves to get the estimate in the works. Home Depot offers the Pro program which gives anywhere from 9%-20% off any order over $1500. This was key as our material estimates didn’t include this discount so we were able to use the money elsewhere. We called a roofer and received a few quotes, and quickly discovered this was going to be a pricey project. The HUD Consultant started reviewing our project and thought initially that we could have a specialty contractor with an electrician and plumber as part of our team. Over the next 4 months we received specific quotes and had to itemize the invoice specifically in the form that the bank requested. Each contractor had to complete specific forms while the broker worked hard getting signatures and information sent back and forth to the bank. It was several months in, until we really had a closer number of everyone’s estimates along with the contingency the bank rolls in. The bank also came back with requests to roll 3 months of mortgage payments into the loan since the extent of the renovation was not going to allow anyone to reside in the units. Getting prepared to close, the owner complete their septic inspection which reported that the septic was too small for the size of the building. While we just reached a close, final number, the cost of the septic was pushing us over our max budget on this project. We were able to negotiate more than 50% of the replacement cost of the septic with the cost of the home. The septic then put us over a limit of doing somewhat of an owner builder deal with four subcontractors (the specialty contractor, electrician, plumber, and roofer) to five. They then required a general contractor to oversee the project- which was the best decision/requirement that happened. We scratched the specialty contractor and luckily made connections with a great local company. Six months later, we finally closed! (Apparently this timeframe is normal!) One tenant happened to move out a few days prior to closing without any notice and one remained at the home. The larger unit was vacant since we looked at the property so we got started on one of the units upstairs and the downstairs one. We figured if we kept the one tenant for a month we could collect some funds in rent. She didn’t pay rent, was in the way of the contractors, wouldn’t throw her garbage away and even after we got her out (cash for keys) she kept coming back. The renovation plan: The initial plan that was submitted to the bank was to completely replace all cabinets, open up (knock out walls) the upstairs kitchens, build a dividing wall (unit 2), new flooring, majority of the windows, trim, plumbing, move sink and washer in dryer in the downstairs unit, rewire electric downstairs, sheet rock ceiling downstairs (was push tile ceiling) and replace all bathroom vanities and bath tubs. The plan for exterior was to do a new roof and new septic. We ended up being able to save so much from our orders from Home Depot Pro along with cutting other cost saving errors of over budgeting. By some sheer miracle we lucked out with the septic. The guy who inspected it was completely wrong. There was a 3,000 gallon tank however we were having some sort of issues with the leach field. Long story short- my septic guy had to dig it up to find that pipes were put in flowing uphill. What we thought was going to be a $18k replacement ended up being a $6k dollar fix. From these savings all together, we added a complete new bedroom, bathroom downstairs going from a 3 bedroom/1 bath to 4 bedroom/2 bath, finishing the outside with vinyl siding, and fencing. Prior to completion, we had both units signed for one year leases. During the renovation the neighbors would come by and thank us for updating the neighborhood and fixing this property up. They told us stories of the cops being there all the time, the tenants selling drugs out of it, and stealing the neighbors cars. Not to mention the run down condition of the building with it being a corner lot. One tenant that lived there hadn’t paid rent in 3 and a half years while the other one didn’t even know who the owners were. We have since moved into the downstairs unit and are finishing exterior landscaping and enjoying the peace that Chugiak has to bring. Tips for the 203k: FHA does a smaller 203K that lends up to 35k worth of repairs, we ended up being right around $160,000 The minimum property standards inspection language needs to be included in the bid Having a GC on your team is easy as you have one main contact for the HUD, Bank, and Owner, only one set of forms need to be submitted Contingency is on your side- I was worried about the $25k extra as funds were tight, but I am thankful for it. There could’ve been so much more that we may have run into- we were lucky 203K from offer to completion averages 9 month-12 months, we made the offer August, closed in February and moved in end of May however are completing siding in July. We purchased the majority of materials on our own so we could save money on bulk orders, not have to pay the contractors for their time tracking everything down and to get the airline miles- while this was good, communicate for the contractor to buffer some materials as I missed out on this. During the process when items were completed we would contact the hud consultant and he would come do an inspection. An inspection must be done once a month, papers would be signed and a draw would be on the way. During a the release of funds the bank would hold back 10% of all draws until the final inspection was completed If money is left over you can submit a change order to put it towards other items. (The change order has to be submitted and approved prior to work starts).
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Lender · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 189 posts · 153 votes
9y

Just to add a bit of advice as an experienced 203k lender:

  • Almost NEVER do I do the Limited/Streamline version or allow a client to do it- too much risk of a Contractor(s) or home owner trying to cram 50k of rehab into the 35k limit resulting in disaster.
  • Always get a great GC who  can then find the subs on  a Full Standard 203k
  • As a Lender we Validate and Investigate the GC - calling references; checking credit lines, checking valid licenses, valid insurance, bank balances; business credit check and if need be a personal credit report on the GC; check for tax liens, Judgments and  other violations. Thats just a part of why I don't  allow Streamlines, even on a small budget
  • Dont worry about the interest rate; in fact  ask the lender to raise the rate and give you cash back to pay Closing costs- Why ?  Because most properties pick up more value and can be refinanced after rehab to a lower rate loan; almost no one ever keeps the 203k loan in the future
  • Be sure to have a great well recommended HUD consultant who gives you great service and writes a detailed Scope of Repairs document which identifies any Mandatory repairs, Recommended repairs and Desired repairs so you know how much this will cost and can adjust down if need be
  • Ask for a 20% contingency reserve instead of 10% just in case; if you dont use it , your loan reduces at the end by that amount and you dont borrow it- it is used for unexpected costs discovered during rehab not in the contractors budget or SOR
  • Share a BLANK version of the SOR called a BOR with  the contractors which lists lists all task and material qualities and labor needed but NO cost on this one so they bid honestly 
  • Be sure YOU understand you have signed a binding CONTRACT with the contractor for the work on the SOR at that COST. Meaning the contractor has baked in his profit and overhead into each part of the work which includes his wear and tear on his car, his insurance, his gas cost, his license cost, his time to go pick up your materials ( tile, flooring, fixtures etc.)  He GETS to make a profit to stay in business. That means you do not get to run to Home Depot or shop online because you saw a sale on something and get it "cheaper" than what the contractor has budgeted.  That apparent difference is where the contractor has placed funds so he makes money on your job. I have seen contractors walk away once clients begin their "shopping". You signed a CONTRACT so check the prices and allowance on each page of the SOR before closing and discuss this with the contractor. Once the 203k CLOSES you do not have license to go "shopping" with a bucket of money in the rehab loan. I see so many borrowers angry over this issue.
  • If possible borrow funds to make the  house payment during the period the house cant be used or apartments rented to avoid a strain on your budget; up to 6 months of payments are allowed to be  included

I write a Blog on these types of loans , link in my website.

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  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    FYI lurkers: that 6 month timeline just to close is a bit longer than normal, but in general the longer timeframe is a big potential dealbreaker in a hotter market. Listing agents don't want to wait extra long to get paid, so they aren't exactly going to give their seller clients unbiased advice even if yours is the highest offer.

    @Jared Reutter, grats on the home!!!

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    I will add that I recently walked through an REO property that was a 203K project before the bank foreclosed; and that owner had bought it as an REO that I also walked through at that earlier time too, and my estimated rehab was at least 70k back then. So I don't know how the guy bought it under 203K unless the estimates for repairs were ignoring things, because that 35K rehab limit is mandatory.

    Now it needs a six figure or so rehab, because the radiators all cracked, damaging floors and who knows what else. And the roofer and electrician that were used both filed mechanics liens, so he didn't even pay people.

    So, the moral of the story is to get really good estimates and don't miss anything.

  • Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    @Steve Babiak

    There is not a mandatory 35k limit. The 35k is where it changes from a 203k streamline loan to a normal 203k loan.

    I agree to get multiple estimates and reputable people. That's where the normal 203k loan is harder than the streamline, all your contractors need to submit there credentials along with references.

    Also with a streamline I believe you get the check directly and pay everyone else. And with a normal 203k your GC gets the get and he pays everyone.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    The example one that I mentioned in my earlier post appears to have been that "streamline" version, because the loan amount recorded in public records exceeded purchase price by just a little under 35K.

  • Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 222 posts · 294 votes
    9y

    @Jared Reutter Thanks for posting your experience about this. I have always been interested in this sort of loan, but never actually pursued one. I am also in the Anchorage area so this is good info. Thanks again!

  • Real Estate Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 27 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Thank you for the insight. I am located in Anchorage and had wondered how the process worked for 203 loans.
  • Real Estate Agent · Kearny, NJ · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 27 votes
    9y
    Jared Reutter Thank you for sharing your experience! I plan on taking advantage of the 203k program also.
  • Real Estate Broker · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2015 · 170 posts · 46 votes
    9y

    @Jared Reutter If you don't mind sharing, what was your purchase price, rehab costs, and after rehab appraised value?

  • Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    @James Cash

    We purchased the property for $242,000

    Put $170,000 into the rehab.

    ARV of $550,000. However there is a triplex listed for sale for $635,000(gotta see what it actually sells for tho) which is pretty comparable so could make make the ARV more.

  • Real Estate Broker · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2015 · 170 posts · 46 votes
    9y
  • Lender · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 189 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    Just to add a bit of advice as an experienced 203k lender:

    • Almost NEVER do I do the Limited/Streamline version or allow a client to do it- too much risk of a Contractor(s) or home owner trying to cram 50k of rehab into the 35k limit resulting in disaster.
    • Always get a great GC who  can then find the subs on  a Full Standard 203k
    • As a Lender we Validate and Investigate the GC - calling references; checking credit lines, checking valid licenses, valid insurance, bank balances; business credit check and if need be a personal credit report on the GC; check for tax liens, Judgments and  other violations. Thats just a part of why I don't  allow Streamlines, even on a small budget
    • Dont worry about the interest rate; in fact  ask the lender to raise the rate and give you cash back to pay Closing costs- Why ?  Because most properties pick up more value and can be refinanced after rehab to a lower rate loan; almost no one ever keeps the 203k loan in the future
    • Be sure to have a great well recommended HUD consultant who gives you great service and writes a detailed Scope of Repairs document which identifies any Mandatory repairs, Recommended repairs and Desired repairs so you know how much this will cost and can adjust down if need be
    • Ask for a 20% contingency reserve instead of 10% just in case; if you dont use it , your loan reduces at the end by that amount and you dont borrow it- it is used for unexpected costs discovered during rehab not in the contractors budget or SOR
    • Share a BLANK version of the SOR called a BOR with  the contractors which lists lists all task and material qualities and labor needed but NO cost on this one so they bid honestly 
    • Be sure YOU understand you have signed a binding CONTRACT with the contractor for the work on the SOR at that COST. Meaning the contractor has baked in his profit and overhead into each part of the work which includes his wear and tear on his car, his insurance, his gas cost, his license cost, his time to go pick up your materials ( tile, flooring, fixtures etc.)  He GETS to make a profit to stay in business. That means you do not get to run to Home Depot or shop online because you saw a sale on something and get it "cheaper" than what the contractor has budgeted.  That apparent difference is where the contractor has placed funds so he makes money on your job. I have seen contractors walk away once clients begin their "shopping". You signed a CONTRACT so check the prices and allowance on each page of the SOR before closing and discuss this with the contractor. Once the 203k CLOSES you do not have license to go "shopping" with a bucket of money in the rehab loan. I see so many borrowers angry over this issue.
    • If possible borrow funds to make the  house payment during the period the house cant be used or apartments rented to avoid a strain on your budget; up to 6 months of payments are allowed to be  included

    I write a Blog on these types of loans , link in my website.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 174 posts · 104 votes
    9y

    @Perry Farella, Went to your website; what a great resource. 

  • Lender · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 189 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    Thank you !

  • Oahu, HI · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    Thanks for sharing your experience! I'm considering this route for my first fixer upper purchase.
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