$100/door debate-sell me on it

$100/door debate-sell me on it

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes

I see a lot of discussion with people saying they want at least $100/door but I don't really understand how it can be a good metric unless there would be a big value add opportunity with a big cash out (limiting the investment) and/or a reliance on appreciation (which I don’t like).

I think there is agreement that $100/door is not a good metric for a limited number of doors, but I struggle to see how it is reasonable even at 100 doors.

I would be interested in hearing from people who agree with the $100/door and those who do not agree with the metric. For those that do agree with the $100/door metric:

1. Have you been investing since before the last recession?

2. If so, how did that work out?

3. If you have not been investing that long, what do you have in place to protect you if we run into another recession like the last?

Below are some of the reasons I do not agree with the $100/door metric and why it is not attractive for me. I would like some good discussion on how I should be open to it as it is easy I can be missing something in my analysis.

For the purposes of the discussion, we will assume 100 doors and that the $100/door factors in PITI, all expenses, property management and a reasonable level of Cap Ex for the property. That is $10,000/mo coming in after expenses and reserves.

Some of the limitations I see with it on the surface are below:

Limited investment returns without relying on appreciation or a big value add

$100/door is only $1,200/yr per unit. If we assume $100/mo in principal pay down per unit as well, that would get the total return to $2,400 per unit per year. Assuming an investor would be ok with a 10% return (I wouldn't invest in this personally), the price per unit would need to be $24,000 which usually means you would be in a warzone or more of a rural area. Even if we assume principal pay down on the high side of $300/mo per unit ($30,000/mo) a 10% return would be $48,000/unit which is still low.

At $100/door, you need to assume minimal equity as the total return would be even lower if the borrower had any significant amount of money down.

At $100/door, this needs to account for a worst-case scenario

Unexpected changes in expenses, vacancy and Cap Ex can have a significant impact and any expense increases need to be passed along to tenants to maintain the $100/door metric. This might not always be possible if the units are already at market rents or are at above market rents. If the units are below market rents, increases can and likely will lead to additional vacancy when rents are increased. You would need an experienced property management team in place as well since there is not much room for error.

Limited ability to withstand changes in the economic cycle

100 doors at $100/door is a return of $10k/mo. If we say the average market rent is $1,000 (a little low for where I am at in MN) and market vacancy is 4% (lower in some areas now) that already factors in 4 units vacant at a given time. With 4% vacancy, the actual profit/door is really $104.16 to make up for the 4 units vacant at a give time but to make things easy we will assume $100/door.

If we enter a recession, we could see higher levels of vacancy and rents declining. The $10,000/mo income relates to additional vacancy of 10 doors to get to break even (86% occupied) or a rent decrease of $104/mo across the board. It seems feasible that either if not both could happen in a recession which means this investment at $100/door could easily cost money every month for as long as the recession lasts. If both happened, the investor will need to have deep pockets to cover $10,000/mo out of their own pocket. $120k/yr is a lot of money to put up for an investment that is losing money. I surely hope the investor would be diversified or has a large outside income source because if their sole source of income is rental real estate in a local area, income from multiple properties will likely drop at the same time limiting the investor’s ability to cover a property that is not performing. Selling it likely will not be feasible either unless the borrower has a lot of equity.

If the rent/unit is greater than $1,000/mo, the investor would have less flexibility in withstanding vacancy and changes in rents than a building with rents lower than $1,000/mo as each additional unit of vacancy will have a larger hit to the investor’s profit. Investing in lower class areas with lower rents would seem to be much more attractive in weathering changes in the economic cycle, as lower rent units are less likely to have large fluctuations in rent as well. At the same time, these investments may take more work to manage too but we can assume you have a strong management company.

Scalability options seem limited

In order to scale, you will need to be able to maintain a minimum DSCR of 1.25. If you have minimal cash equity in the deal above to get a decent Cash on Cash return, it may be difficult to find deals that will meet this metric in the current climate where most deals are overpriced for the level of income they generate. Absent a good value add opportunity with private pre-funding and a cash out, it seems like it might be hard to find many deals in strong areas that could provide a good return at $100/door and would meet the minimum DSCR requirements.

There is more to this and several variables to consider (unit count, avg rents…), but in a situation of 100 units at $1,000 or more a door avg rent, it seems tough for me to call $100/mo per door a great investment unless this a pre value add or is a worst case scenario number that factors in the performance in a declining economic cycle.

Summary

I would be curious to see the thoughts from others whether they agree or disagree as my primary purpose in posting this is to understand how this metric can be a good metric (in any situation) to base an investment decision on. I understand metrics are what they are and cannot be used in every situation, but I fail to understand how this metric can be a good one to use at all and want to clear things up in my mind as I see it being brought up every day on the forums-likely by people who have never even used it, let alone investors that have weathered an economic cycle.

Thinking this through more makes me start to side more with @Jay Hinrichs on his philosophy that wealth is the accumulation of free and clear properties not a bunch of high debt properties providing monthly cash flow as these are the ones susceptible to big problems in the downturn. 

I do not think the properties need to be owned free and clear, but they need enough equity and strong cash flow to protect against the next downturn.  $100/door would be a poor investment return in a deal with a lot of equity and does not lead to a strong level of cash flow in some situations.

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Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent
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  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    Guys, I did not realize there is a debate. I think the birth of $100/door can be traced to Podcast 14, with this guy by the name Ben Leybovich. I think I mentioned it there for the first time.

    The discussion was no-money-down 100% financing. $100/door before value add was my bare minimum hurdle at 100% leverage. 

    I am not suggesting 100% leverage is the same thing as leveraging 100% of the value. Neither am I saying that 100% leverage is the best way to do things, or that you can sustain $100/door without value add.

    This is not a metric that should be used. Neither is Cap Rate. Neither is CCR :)

    There is a place for all of the above in the underwriting narrative, but individually these mean very little.

    I agree Ben.  A value add opportunity is completely different than a straight buy and hold but I see people continuously throw around that they are looking to get $100/door and I don't really understand how there are so many people looking for $100/door.  I could be wrong, but my gut feeling is that most are looking for something that isn't necessarily a strong value add opportunity when they are saying this.

    I understand it if there is a big value add opportunity but that is the only scenario I can wrap my head around why someone would look for $100/door unless they are banking on appreciation (which I try not to do).  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Eric James I think the feasibility of it might depend on the market and I think some people may not understand that.  

    These metrics at low cost/unit (ex $40k) and at lower rent per door level ($650/door) might work better than a larger area where the per unit cost is higher (ex $100k) and the rents are greater than $1,000/door.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    Guys, I did not realize there is a debate. I think the birth of $100/door can be traced to Podcast 14, with this guy by the name Ben Leybovich. I think I mentioned it there for the first time.

    The discussion was no-money-down 100% financing. $100/door before value add was my bare minimum hurdle at 100% leverage. 

    I am not suggesting 100% leverage is the same thing as leveraging 100% of the value. Neither am I saying that 100% leverage is the best way to do things, or that you can sustain $100/door without value add.

    This is not a metric that should be used. Neither is Cap Rate. Neither is CCR :)

    There is a place for all of the above in the underwriting narrative, but individually these mean very little.

    I agree Ben.  A value add opportunity is completely different than a straight buy and hold but I see people continuously throw around that they are looking to get $100/door and I don't really understand how there are so many people looking for $100/door.  I could be wrong, but my gut feeling is that most are looking for something that isn't necessarily a strong value add opportunity when they are saying this.

    I understand it if there is a big value add opportunity but that is the only scenario I can wrap my head around why someone would look for $100/door unless they are banking on appreciation (which I try not to do).  

     Lest we forget where we are. Shall we try to conduct an experiment and tell people to jump off a roof of a pig and see how many do? lol

  • Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
    Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    I have been following along this thread and I'm not in this league; but I'll chime in anyway. I have a 12 unit building in Aberdeen wa-I bought it last year. It works out at 53K per door and the average rent is 675 per unit. The building has been full consistently according to past financials, and currently provides a decent cash flow. I am looking for another building like it; but they are not easy to find. I like my investments to be no more than an hour from my house. This is a great thread y'all got going here!

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I am not sure if I follow the concept of 100/door but if it is referring to the actual cash flow on a deal, that is about the right number you will find on average for a good deal if you are using the 50% rule in regards to expenses and P/I.

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. in your OP at $100/door with leverage (75%) and a purchase price of $2.4mm as suggested, you would have a 20% annual cash on cash. After principal pay down that amount would be considerably higher. I would take a 20% cash on cash return all day long. 

    With your example you assume a PP of $2.4mm, and rent of $1,000/month. Using those numbers and a 60% expense to income, you would have an NOI of $480,000 which would give us a cap rate of 20. Again, I would take that all day long!

    If you are buying a 100 unit building with all 2 bedrooms that rent for $1500/month and only get $100/door, then yes that will be a bad return, but if you invest in a lower rent market in the midwest with studios, 1 beds and maybe a few 2 beds with average rent at $600/month, then $100/unit could work really well. 

    The issue with $100/door or any "rule" is that they don't consider the unique deal. The real measurement in my opinion is what is the IRR vs the risk associated. If I can give my investors and IRR of 16% and feel there is low risk, then it is a win. If that means $100/unit in profit, then so be it.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Bjorn Ahlblad    I work in WA so I somewhat know the area you are from and Aberdeen.  I actually had some involvement with a credit union that was closed in Aberdeen not too long ago as well.  

    In lower cost areas, it may work better, but it seems harder in higher cost MSAs.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Todd Dexheimer On lower cost/unit properties I can see it working, but I do not see it working well in larger MSAs where the cost/unit is higher.

    I'm not as knowledgeable as others about various markets across the US, but I find it hard to find 100 units at $24k/unit and not be in a warzone.  It might not even be possible to do that in a warzone at this time.

    In my examples, I avoided looking at the expenses and just factor in the net profit after debt service and cap ex of $100/door per month as that is the metric people seem to be discussing and it is more conservative.  I am using 100 units to give some additional protection against vacancy and rent fluctuations for the stressed example.

    At $80k/unit ($8,000,000) which is less than they can be had for in a decent part of our area with 25% equity, that is a loan of $6,000,000 and a payment of $36k/mo at 5.5% on a 25 year amort. After all expenses, debt service and cap ex reserves, if you still pull away $100/door=$10k/mo ($120k/yr). If we look at the return over 5 years, this would be $600,000 in profit and $643k in principal amort=$1,243,000/5= $249k/yr total return=12% total return. This might meet the goals for some people, but the numbers would need to be solid to the point where $100/door will always be achieved in a stressed environment as well. Vacancy estimates would need to take into consideration a worst case scenario and rents would need to remain feasible in a down economy. 

    At $100/door with 100 doors and an after cap ex profit of $10,000/mo, the property would need to be at least 86% occupied (assuming standard 4% in a better MSA) at the same rent levels in a down economy.  I don't have the experience to say whether this is achievable, which is partly why I posted.  

    The example above in a longer horizon would look like a better return as there would be more principal amortization, but then we need to look at interest rates, changes in the economy, changes in the supply of housing and other variables that could happen and impact the input that gets you at $100/door.

    My gut feeling is that if housing prices are down, some tenants will be in a better place to buy a home and might leave their apartments which could lead to more vacancy and a decreased rent levels when more landlords are competing. I do not have the experience to say how it would work in an apartment but that is my guess. I will say that it worked in my favor with my SFR rentals as many people that strategically defaulted needed a place to go and many of them could not fit their family and their stuff in a 1-2 BR apartment. In the down economy, I recall the cost/unit for single family homes was in line with unit cost of an apartment. My SFRs rented for more and it seemed like an easier exit strategy which is why I ultimately decided to stay with single family homes at the time. I am more interested in larger deals now from a scalability and ease of management perspective, but it is hard to find much of anything that is a real deal in our local market in the multifamily area and I do not plan on venturing too far outside of the area at this time which limits me.

    I think the $100/door recommendation people seem to keep giving to new investors is a bit misleading as it is not feasible in many markets in the current economy unless it is a lower rent, lower unit cost not found in most larger MSAs.  

    Also, most newer investors are looking at 1-4 unit properties and I do not agree that it is appropriate in smaller unit properties either as it is likely not scalable, they probably are not considering a property manager, their numbers are likely off somewhere, and is a lot of work to manage a property on their own for only $1,200/yr.  

    I am guessing many people on here with the goal of $100/door probably do not even know what the $100/door represents as a return to them or can support how they even determined that would be a goal for them outside of saying they heard someone else they look up to say it.

    I only have experience in 1-4 real estate myself and do not see it as a viable option in this environment unless people are factoring unreasonably high levels of vacancy to get to the $100/door or are investing in very low cost/unit properties not generally found in safe areas to invest. 

    From what I recall seeing, you primarily do value add, which I agree is completely different.  I am guessing you will take $100/door with a value add that has a lot of upside and that it is not a goal to get $100/door on a property for you correct?  

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. 

    As with any rule of thumb, it is meant to be a quick tool. Obviously the monthly rent per unit can greatly sku this. My houses rent for $1300 per month, so there is no way a $100 per door would work for me. In my case I am looking for $400 per door. 

    Don't get hung up on the number and instead look at the method. Maybe $100 is not your number, but figure out what your number is for your market and type of property.

    Same goes for the 1% rule or 2% rule. In my market for my B class properties, I look for 0.8% as my rule. So my monthly rents are around 0.008 X selling price. 

    These rules are tools, not meant to be taken as gospel. As with any tool just adjust it to your own needs.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock

    My goals are in line with yours for my properties.  

    I have already determined $100/door will not work for me in my area but am trying to understand how there are so many people on the forums that discuss a goal of $100/door.  New investors post asking about what they should expect to get for cashflow out of a deal and there will be several people who post their goal of $100/door.  

    I'm curious how many of these people recommending $100/door have really thought it through, understand what it does for them, and how it helps them meet their goals.  It seems to me like many people on here might not understand that this metric that is being tossed around might not be tied to anything or be a good idea with the exception of select scenarios and markets.

    I can really only see it working on a big value add or an in a lower rent/lower unit cost situation.  

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Joe Splitrock

    My goals are in line with yours for my properties.  

    I have already determined $100/door will not work for me in my area but am trying to understand how there are so many people on the forums that discuss a goal of $100/door.  New investors post asking about what they should expect to get for cashflow out of a deal and there will be several people who post their goal of $100/door.  

    I'm curious how many of these people recommending $100/door have really thought it through, understand what it does for them, and how it helps them meet their goals.  It seems to me like many people on here might not understand that this metric that is being tossed around might not be tied to anything or be a good idea with the exception of select scenarios and markets.

    I can really only see it working on a big value add or an in a lower rent/lower unit cost situation.  

    I think it is fair to say that cash flow after all expenses including debt services should never be under $100 per door, but whether $100 per door is good depends on other factors. My first rental property was a duplex that cash flowed around $100 per door after all expenses and debt service (100% financing). That is a long time ago, but was pretty amazing at the time.

    Whether it be the 50% rule, 1% rule, 2% rule, BRRRR, 1031 exchange, HELOC, etc. People throw around terms they hear without fully understanding what they are saying.

    Good question you posted. It is helpful to challenge all of us to think these things through.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    My biggest concern is really for new investors that hear about these different metrics and think of them as safe numbers.  If there was a metric that would work for every scenario, it likely would not be an achievable metric for everyone.  I don't think some people understand there is no safe rule of thumb number for every situation.

    The same can be said about the 50% rule, 1%, and 2% rules.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    8y

    @James W.

    I will just say that $100/door of cash flow is better than 0 doors and $0 cash flow. In a few years, that $100/door grows, either through principle pay down, refinance, increased rents, etc. The exception to that is if rents decrease, which can happen during a recession. And in that case, scale matters. For a new investor that just wants to get some skin in the game with an SFR, riding out a recession where they have to feed the investment for a while isn't too problematic. But with 100 units, riding out that recession can be problematic to say the least. I would say the longer we have been in a bull market, the more important it is to make sure your cash flow numbers have some cushion. I personally wouldn't go for $100/door in this market.

    And finally, the problem with $100/door for new investors is that they often underestimate expenses. So that $100/door isn't truly $100/door.

    Good topic, thank you for the discussion!

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jeremy Z. The biggest concern for me is protection from a recession at that cash flow level.  There is not much room for error even with moderate scale to it.   That assumes the numbers are solid from the start.

    I agree that most new investors underestimate expenses so this is another reason the $100/door estimate should be larger for people with less experience.  It scares me even more to see that some of them are looking to invest on behalf of others in a larger deal!

    Some people have the mentality that the first deal does not need to make money and just needs to be a learning experience.  I completely disagree as a bad deal can make it so a new investor might not have enough capital or capacity to get into the next deal.  

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Todd Dexheimer On lower cost/unit properties I can see it working, but I do not see it working well in larger MSAs where the cost/unit is higher...

    At $80k/unit ($8,000,000) which is less than they can be had for in a decent part of our area with 25% equity, that is a loan of $6,000,000 and a payment of $36k/mo at 5.5% on a 25 year amort. After all expenses, debt service and cap ex reserves, if you still pull away $100/door=$10k/mo ($120k/yr). If we look at the return over 5 years, this would be $600,000 in profit and $643k in principal amort=$1,243,000/5= $249k/yr total return=12% total return....

    That's not the total return for the property: its the arithmetic mean return of free cash flow and amortization... it doesn't take into account time value of money, tax savings to investors, appreciation, or transaction costs. 

    At a minimum the geometric return should be used, since each year's returns depend on the previous year's results. Though this method assumes cash flows from amortization are recognized in the year the occur, which we know not to be the case, so this method is also flawed. 

    Again, the calculations best suited to deal with yearly cash flows that vary in magnitude and timing are, DCF, IRR, MIIR, FMRR. You have this obsession with cash flow, which is only one part of the REI pie.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Bill F.  Absent the assumption that there is a value add play or that rents will continue to go up year over year in a 5 year timeframe, how would you look at the example above to show the true return over a short term horizon?  

    If we look at this as a place that was already renovated and rented at market rents, what am I missing?

    I am only looking at the cashflow side as it is the only thing we can look at as something constant over a short term period without speculating on the market or how the supply will be in a given area.  It is also what will cover the debt service and help in weathering changes in the economic cycle. 

    I know there are tax benefits, but I am too young to let tax benefits drive my investment decisions so I usually don't take that into consideration with my investments at this time.  

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    8y

    The $100/door is a monthly cash flow number, AFTER expenses are accounted for. Someone mentioned vacancy and maintenance. This ideally should NOT come out of this $100/door and should already be accounted for in the reserves. My first turnkey SFR has almost a $200/month cash flow after all expenses are accounted for. It'd be "closer" to about $375 if I did not include reserves/expenses and only factored in PITI. The next one I'm looking at now is only about $125/month after all expenses/reserves. Not as good, but as someone else said, better than no property with $0/month (although some would argue this point).

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    The main advantage I can see in large multi is the scale. The ability to purchase one $1M property rather than 10 or 20 small ones, even if the ROI (and $/door) is lower. On the other hand, from what I understand, when doing a value add with a multi one has to wait a couple years to stabilize before refinancing or selling. In contrast, I can refi small brrr properties immediately with a portfolio lender.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Mark S. My assumption is that all of the reserves are solid and the $100/door is solid based on today's market.

    @Eric James I understand the ease of deploying assets and diversifying with a larger property.  That is not what I am trying to look at here.  I am looking at the feasibility of investing at $100/door of cash flow after all expenses to better understand why many people on this site say they are using it as a measuring stick. 

    My examples look at 100 units to assume there will be efficiencies with scale.  I do not have the means of investing at this scale but my thought is that this scenario would be more favorable to an investor than looking at $100/door for a handful of units.  I could do the same with a SRF or duplex, but the reality is that there is less room for error in estimates with the lower number of units someone would have as $100/unit is not much money to be putting in your pocket on smaller deals.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Bill F.  Absent the assumption that there is a value add play or that rents will continue to go up year over year in a 5 year timeframe, how would you look at the example above to show the true return over a short term horizon?  

    If we look at this as a place that was already renovated and rented at market rents, what am I missing?

    I am only looking at the cashflow side as it is the only thing we can look at as something constant over a short term period without speculating on the market or how the supply will be in a given area.  It is also what will cover the debt service and help in weathering changes in the economic cycle. 

    I know there are tax benefits, but I am too young to let tax benefits drive my investment decisions so I usually don't take that into consideration with my investments at this time.  

    -I had an instructor once who used to tell us  "Professionals use precise terms precisely" Total return means the overall return from the investment, not just from one or two factors.  I never suggested to make a decision solely on tax implications. Though I don't see a reason to not add their impacts to your investments if you have the ability.

    -You can keep moving the goal post and changing this hypothetical 100 unit apartment building, but doing so misses the point of underwriting; every property has its own asymmetrical risks and so does every investor.  That's why you account for all four wealth generators  when you underwrite. A famous statistician once said "All models are wrong, but some are useful" Doing all this work is less about the end result (you only know your true return after you've sold the investment) and more about a through analysis of the deal to look at the potential impacts of a variety of factors. 

    -I calculate total return using free post tax cash flow from the property: 

    Year 0: -$2,000,000

    Year 1: $100,000 (tax are $20k for no other reason than I like round numbers. This will vary for everyone so it doesn't matter for this example)

    Year 2: $100,000

    Year 3: $100,000

    Year 4: $100,000

    Year 5: $2.65M ($100k in cash flow+$2.55M proceed from sale. Some transaction costs and lets say we 1031it, because why not)

    From there its dealers choice on what method you use, DCF, IRR, MIRR, FMRR . I prefer MIRR, but they are like tools in a tool box; everyone has a use in a specific situation. All that matters is that you are consistent as you can be in the development assumptions and stress test those assumptions to see what, if any trends, favor or hurt your investment.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Bill F. I understand my example is not perfect, but there have to be some constants in the review of a hypothetical situation.  I could use variables to make everything look good or variables to make everything look really bad so I am trying to take some of the variables out of it with what I posted.

    What I have in the example does not take into consideration the time value of money, but it does not make the deal look any better. Wouldn't the IRR/MIRR/DCR calcs make this scenario look even worse since it essentially says the $100/door is worth less each year?

    Also, from a tax perspective, any cap ex expenses not actually spent in the current year will be taxable in the given year and looked as as income.  Of course depreciation helps offset some of this, but there are many variables with taxes depending on the timing of things and the individual investor, which is one of the reasons I did not include it.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. I have no desire to "make the deal look any better" I don't care what it looks like, I care about how it performs. 

    Yes, given this set of data, IRR/MIRR yield a lower return than your arithmetic mean return. I don't care which is higher or lower, I care which more accurately reflects reality.

    At the end of the day there is no Due Diligence court that will declare one of us right and the other wrong. Its you money, invest it how you want.

    Thanks for starting a good topic with lots of terrific points made.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 257 posts · 130 votes
    8y

    $100 dollar a door is right next to 0$ a door, unless there is significant appreciation which you can't bank on. I don't work for free. 

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    Active real investing is too much work to not achieve outpaced returns.  Many investors don't buy anything without being able to add value or experience predictable appreciation (or have high cash flow).  These investors can get double digit returns investing passively with others; so, the active real estate returns have to be stronger to make it worthwhile.

  • Rental Property Investor · Racine IL · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 15 votes
    8y

    You are right.  It is a guide people use in a very low end market.  It makes sense if you are buying doors for 30-50k but gets worse the more you pay per door.  

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