$100/door debate-sell me on it

$100/door debate-sell me on it

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes

I see a lot of discussion with people saying they want at least $100/door but I don't really understand how it can be a good metric unless there would be a big value add opportunity with a big cash out (limiting the investment) and/or a reliance on appreciation (which I don’t like).

I think there is agreement that $100/door is not a good metric for a limited number of doors, but I struggle to see how it is reasonable even at 100 doors.

I would be interested in hearing from people who agree with the $100/door and those who do not agree with the metric. For those that do agree with the $100/door metric:

1. Have you been investing since before the last recession?

2. If so, how did that work out?

3. If you have not been investing that long, what do you have in place to protect you if we run into another recession like the last?

Below are some of the reasons I do not agree with the $100/door metric and why it is not attractive for me. I would like some good discussion on how I should be open to it as it is easy I can be missing something in my analysis.

For the purposes of the discussion, we will assume 100 doors and that the $100/door factors in PITI, all expenses, property management and a reasonable level of Cap Ex for the property. That is $10,000/mo coming in after expenses and reserves.

Some of the limitations I see with it on the surface are below:

Limited investment returns without relying on appreciation or a big value add

$100/door is only $1,200/yr per unit. If we assume $100/mo in principal pay down per unit as well, that would get the total return to $2,400 per unit per year. Assuming an investor would be ok with a 10% return (I wouldn't invest in this personally), the price per unit would need to be $24,000 which usually means you would be in a warzone or more of a rural area. Even if we assume principal pay down on the high side of $300/mo per unit ($30,000/mo) a 10% return would be $48,000/unit which is still low.

At $100/door, you need to assume minimal equity as the total return would be even lower if the borrower had any significant amount of money down.

At $100/door, this needs to account for a worst-case scenario

Unexpected changes in expenses, vacancy and Cap Ex can have a significant impact and any expense increases need to be passed along to tenants to maintain the $100/door metric. This might not always be possible if the units are already at market rents or are at above market rents. If the units are below market rents, increases can and likely will lead to additional vacancy when rents are increased. You would need an experienced property management team in place as well since there is not much room for error.

Limited ability to withstand changes in the economic cycle

100 doors at $100/door is a return of $10k/mo. If we say the average market rent is $1,000 (a little low for where I am at in MN) and market vacancy is 4% (lower in some areas now) that already factors in 4 units vacant at a given time. With 4% vacancy, the actual profit/door is really $104.16 to make up for the 4 units vacant at a give time but to make things easy we will assume $100/door.

If we enter a recession, we could see higher levels of vacancy and rents declining. The $10,000/mo income relates to additional vacancy of 10 doors to get to break even (86% occupied) or a rent decrease of $104/mo across the board. It seems feasible that either if not both could happen in a recession which means this investment at $100/door could easily cost money every month for as long as the recession lasts. If both happened, the investor will need to have deep pockets to cover $10,000/mo out of their own pocket. $120k/yr is a lot of money to put up for an investment that is losing money. I surely hope the investor would be diversified or has a large outside income source because if their sole source of income is rental real estate in a local area, income from multiple properties will likely drop at the same time limiting the investor’s ability to cover a property that is not performing. Selling it likely will not be feasible either unless the borrower has a lot of equity.

If the rent/unit is greater than $1,000/mo, the investor would have less flexibility in withstanding vacancy and changes in rents than a building with rents lower than $1,000/mo as each additional unit of vacancy will have a larger hit to the investor’s profit. Investing in lower class areas with lower rents would seem to be much more attractive in weathering changes in the economic cycle, as lower rent units are less likely to have large fluctuations in rent as well. At the same time, these investments may take more work to manage too but we can assume you have a strong management company.

Scalability options seem limited

In order to scale, you will need to be able to maintain a minimum DSCR of 1.25. If you have minimal cash equity in the deal above to get a decent Cash on Cash return, it may be difficult to find deals that will meet this metric in the current climate where most deals are overpriced for the level of income they generate. Absent a good value add opportunity with private pre-funding and a cash out, it seems like it might be hard to find many deals in strong areas that could provide a good return at $100/door and would meet the minimum DSCR requirements.

There is more to this and several variables to consider (unit count, avg rents…), but in a situation of 100 units at $1,000 or more a door avg rent, it seems tough for me to call $100/mo per door a great investment unless this a pre value add or is a worst case scenario number that factors in the performance in a declining economic cycle.

Summary

I would be curious to see the thoughts from others whether they agree or disagree as my primary purpose in posting this is to understand how this metric can be a good metric (in any situation) to base an investment decision on. I understand metrics are what they are and cannot be used in every situation, but I fail to understand how this metric can be a good one to use at all and want to clear things up in my mind as I see it being brought up every day on the forums-likely by people who have never even used it, let alone investors that have weathered an economic cycle.

Thinking this through more makes me start to side more with @Jay Hinrichs on his philosophy that wealth is the accumulation of free and clear properties not a bunch of high debt properties providing monthly cash flow as these are the ones susceptible to big problems in the downturn. 

I do not think the properties need to be owned free and clear, but they need enough equity and strong cash flow to protect against the next downturn.  $100/door would be a poor investment return in a deal with a lot of equity and does not lead to a strong level of cash flow in some situations.

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Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent
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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    8y

    I wouldn't wake up for $100/door

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jason D.:
    So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent

    I am assuming the opposite-high leverage.  The items I discussed in the first posts are the risks of doing $100/door with high leverage.  I don't feel there is much cushion in that scenario considering the risks involved.  I don't agree with no leverage, but think there needs to be some balance of equity and more than $100/door profit to be safe in a recession.

    Low leverage would be impossible to get any return on your money at $100/door in the current market.  $10,000/mo *12 months =$120k year.  At a 7% cap rate, you would need to be able to buy a 100 unit building for $1.7 million ($17k/unit).  You are not going to get anything for $17k/unit unless you can somehow find something in a war zone.  This shows a cash deal or low leveraged deal does not work at $100/door if you want any return on your money.  

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    We're talking two different things here. I'm not suggesting buying a 100 unit building that has an NOI of $10,000/mo. I'm talking cash flow AFTER debt service. A 75% LTV mortgage with average rates is going to be $9k give or take on a 1.7 million property, making that a, roughly, 11% Cap rate, which I would do all day long.
  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Or, in your 7% cap scenario, youd be looking at a $4 million property
  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. $100/door/month is another one of those rules of thumb that gets confused with gospel. I think it has more applicability in the Duplex, Triplex, Quad, maybe up to 10 units. Think someone whose goal is to have the tenants pay the mortgage and in 20 years they have a property free and clear with some cash flow to supplement their retirement.

    You are looking at it from the point of view of a more sophisticated investor who wants to optimize return over time. Anyone buying 20+ units will use IRR to accurately model out free cash flow, appreciation, amortization, and tax savings.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    Thinking this through more makes me start to side more with @Jay Hinrichs on his philosophy that wealth is the accumulation of free and clear properties not a bunch of high debt properties providing monthly cash flow as these are the ones susceptible to big problems in the downturn. 

    I do not think the properties need to be owned free and clear, but they need enough equity and strong cash flow to protect against the next downturn.  $100/door would be a poor investment return in a deal with a lot of equity and does not lead to a strong level of cash flow in some situations.

    This is more the way I think . At $100 a door it , to me , would be a waste of my time .  1 minor repair and " poof" there goes a month or 2 of cash flow .  Now if you have 100 doors , you have 100 plus personalities to deal with .  I dont see it worth the headache .  My minimum is $ 500 a door and I would rather see more .

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jason D.:
    We're talking two different things here. I'm not suggesting buying a 100 unit building that has an NOI of $10,000/mo. I'm talking cash flow AFTER debt service. A 75% LTV mortgage with average rates is going to be $9k give or take on a 1.7 million property, making that a, roughly, 11% Cap rate, which I would do all day long.

    In my first post, I was assuming after debt service and cap ex of  profit of $100/door.  

    My last example in response to your post demonstrated a situation with no leverage to show it is not feasible and that it is not the same as what I was describing. With no leverage, NOI would be $10k/mo and would be the equivalent to after debt service cash flow which would mean a purchase price of $1.7 million for a 7% CAP.

    It is not realistic to find $100 units for $1.7 million ($17k/unit which is what I was trying to point out as well.  100 units at $17k/unit leveraged would obviously look like a good return but you would need to show me a place at $17k unit not in a war zone to consider.  

    At $80k/unit ($8,000,000) with 25% equity, that is a loan of $6,000,000 and a payment of $36k/mo at 5.5% on a 25 year amort.  After this, if you still pull away $100/door=$10k/mo ($120k/yr).  If we look at the return over 5 years, this would be $600,000 in profit and $643k in principal amort=$1,243,000/5= $249k/yr total return=12% total return.  It doesn't look as bad from this standpoint, but the numbers would need to be solid to the point where $100/door will always be achieved.  Vacancy estimates would need to take into consideration a worst case scenario and rents would need to remain feasible in a down economy.  

    In the last cycle, I did see an increase in rents on my single family homes as people strategically defaulted in my area and needed space, but when prices for housing are low, I could be wrong, but I would think that might also drive people out of apartments and into their own homes too.  

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    @Matthew Paul cash-flow, for me, is after all expenses. so if there is a minor repair, that doesn't come out of my cashflow, because I've already accounted for that. I'm not sure where you can find $500/mo cashflow, but if you can find it consistently, you've got something very few people can find
  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    @James Woodrich so it sounds like there is no selling you on it. I'm happy with $100/mo as minimum cash flow and it aligns well for my goals. Everyone is different in that respect.
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @James W. $100/door/month is another one of those rules of thumb that gets confused with gospel. I think it has more applicability in the Duplex, Triplex, Quad, maybe up to 10 units. Think someone whose goal is to have the tenants pay the mortgage and in 20 years they have a property free and clear with some cash flow to supplement their retirement.

    You are looking at it from the point of view of a more sophisticated investor who wants to optimize return over time. Anyone buying 20+ units will use IRR to accurately model out free cash flow, appreciation, amortization, and tax savings.

    I would think the lower the doors, the higher the risk.  For example, if you make $100 a door on a duplex and have one unit go vacant, you are paying out of pocket to service the debt.  If you have 100 units at $100/door, there is a little more flexibility as one unit being vacant will have a smaller impact on the investor.  With 100 units at $100/door, you can have vacancy increase by 10 units over the estimated before having to come out of pocket.  

    Personally, I don't like the idea of coming out of pocket to support rentals with the thought that I will own them free and clear down the road.  I would want a good investment return-not the house as a savings account.  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jason D. I can see how it would work in a value add situation but struggle to see the value in relation to the risk in a typical buy and hold that many investors do.  

    I could be open to it, but would like the input from investors on how it worked out in the last recession if they were leveraged as there were many investors who flopped in my MN market which would suggest it did not work out for them.

    Specifically, I am interested in how the recession affected vacancies and rent rates and if $100/mo would have weathered the storm.  I'm speaking a long term plain vanilla buy and hold, not a syndication with a value add and a goal to get out before interest rates rise again.  

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. A properly accounted for vacancy credit would cover the lost rental income in your example. 

    We may have different interpretations of this $100/door/month, but from my point of view its $100 of free cash flow, or NOI less debt serving, and CapEx Reserves.

    At the end of the day, it depends on the investor's goals. Like I said in my previous post, I can see how this may work for some types of investors in some situations. Getting dogmatic about these things never helps. It may not work for your goals at 100 units, but what about someone in their 50's who wants a small core asset they can own outright in 15-20 years and have no need of cash flow in the next 10-15 years?

    How the deal is underwritten in its totality is much more important than the single number of $100/door/month. I can monkey with the numbers to make nearly any property meet this arbitrary criteria, but few will provide returns when underwritten conservatively.

    As for your concerns about vacancy vis a vis a recession, use historical data for your area and asset class to stress test your models. Or use the highest vacancy rate when you underwrite the deal.

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    @James Woodrich what if we use a hypothetical 100 unit building? I don't know if this is feasible in your market. You could take a $4 million property and put a conventional 25% down and have $1 million cash in it. If that property gives you $100/mo/unit, you're purchasing it at about a 9 cap, and getting 12% return on your cash. This is much bigger than anything that I look at so I could very well be missing something, but it seems like a decent deal at $10,000/mo cashflow.
  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Jason D. I can see how it would work in a value add situation but struggle to see the value in relation to the risk in a typical buy and hold that many investors do.  

    I could be open to it, but would like the input from investors on how it worked out in the last recession if they were leveraged as there were many investors who flopped in my MN market which would suggest it did not work out for them.

    Specifically, I am interested in how the recession affected vacancies and rent rates and if $100/mo would have weathered the storm.  I'm speaking a long term plain vanilla buy and hold, not a syndication with a value add and a goal to get out before interest rates rise again.  

    Me too. I would be interested in a property like this that I could add a lot of value to, and then sell a few years down the road for a large gain. I don't see myself being interested a 100 unit property for buy and hold that cashflows $100/door.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Bill F. I am factoring in $100/mo after debt service and cap ex-everything.

    You can factor in vacancy at whatever you want to make it work, but the reality is that one unit of vacancy in a duplex or small portfolio of properties (say 10 units) will have a larger impact on the portfolio return than one unit of vacancy at a larger complex with comparable rents and the same $100/door.  

    At the same time, achieving $100/door on a place that rents for $600/mo is a better return than $100/door on a unit that rents for $1,000/mo as the investment would likely be less in the cheaper unit.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jason D.:
    @James Woodrich what if we use a hypothetical 100 unit building? I don't know if this is feasible in your market. You could take a $4 million property and put a conventional 25% down and have $1 million cash in it. If that property gives you $100/mo/unit, you're purchasing it at about a 9 cap, and getting 12% return on your cash. This is much bigger than anything that I look at so I could very well be missing something, but it seems like a decent deal at $10,000/mo cashflow.

    The part I struggle with in this scenario is that it is still only $4 million for a 100 unit building.  $40k/unit still seems cheap for an investment in an area that is not a warzone.  It seems to me like this would be a morris invest type of neighborhood.  

    I will say I am not as knowledgeable in other markets, but is it reasonable to spend only $40k/unit and not invest in the hood or a rural area anywhere in the US?

  • Investor · Taylor Mill, KY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 964 votes
    8y

    @James W. I'd say you're pretty dead on about the $40k/unit. I'll add that I'm sure people have bought at that price not in the hood or rural area, but the property was really distressed and was a deep value add. Not saying it happens often, but I would assume it happens occasionally. I heard a podcast where James Kandasamy purchased a community (forget how many units) at $41k/door I believe, and was not in the hood or rural area.

    Love the question!

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Bill F. I am factoring in $100/mo after debt service and cap ex-everything.

    You can factor in vacancy at whatever you want to make it work, but the reality is that one unit of vacancy in a duplex or small portfolio of properties (say 10 units) will have a larger impact on the portfolio return than one unit of vacancy at a larger complex with comparable rents and the same $100/door.  

    At the same time, achieving $100/door on a place that rents for $600/mo is a better return than $100/door on a unit that rents for $1,000/mo as the investment would likely be less in the cheaper unit.

    I agree man, vacancy risk increases as number of units decrease, but this isn't a debate about the relative merits of 10 units vs 100 units. 

    I'm not advocating one way or another for $100/door/month. I can see it working for some people and not for others. 

    Its obviously does work for you since you seek higher/optimized returns and those require more sophisticated metrics and models. You have CAGR, ROI, Discounted Cash Flow, IRR, FMRR, combining all of those in some data tables to generate multiple models based off a range of assumptions. You can go buy ARGUS if you want.

    However, the importance of underwriting lies in the accuracy of your assumptions about vacancy, repairs, CapEx, how elastic or inelastic the rental market is for your particular price point. $1000/month rental fall into far different classes where I live in NC compared to LA and thus have much different sensitivities to market fluctuation.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jason D.:
    @Matthew Paul cash-flow, for me, is after all expenses. so if there is a minor repair, that doesn't come out of my cashflow, because I've already accounted for that. I'm not sure where you can find $500/mo cashflow, but if you can find it consistently, you've got something very few people can find

    All the properties I have hit $ 500 or better .  

  • Investor · Dublin, CA · Member since 2016 · 344 posts · 228 votes
    8y
    What about $100/door with no money down in a C neighborhood on a SFR valued over $100K or 10 unit building valued at $500K?
  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    8y

    Guys. The $100/door doesn’t mean anything...

    Example 1.

    $100,000 mortgage owner will let you take over payments, $1200 down to help him move, it’s worth $200k. He’s about to lose it to the bank anyway, $500/mo and it rents to a family friend month to month for $600/mo when you could get $1,000 when he moves out in a year to a new job. You’re “making” $100/door, $100k in equity, and 100%  return. 

    Example 2

    $2 million dollar house standard loan 25% down, 30 years at 4%. You’re payment is $7200 plus $1500/mo taxes, and $300/mo insurance. $9,000/mo. But the seller says he has a guy renting it mtm for $9100/mo.  Now you’re $500k is making $1200/yr until he moves out, taxes or insurance go up, or anything breaks. 

    Example 3 (just cause I’m bored and thought of it before I hit post)

    $1 million dollar 12 plex owner carries it for 10 years principle payments only. $16,200/mo plus your taxes insurance, we’ll call it $17,500. The renters are paying $1550/mo. ($18,600) In this case the cash flow is only $90/door/mo. But since you’re Income is $1450/mo per door, I think you’d still take the deal. 

    I think the $100/door/mo started from Brandon's days in an area where "houses" cost $40k (or a fourplex was under $200k) and there was some owner financing. I do only SFR in Vegas and my WORST house is $600/mo. A good house brings in $1000/mo. These are all 25% down standard investor loans around 3.5-4%. Some are 15 year, some are 30 year, some are paid off already from their own cash flow. But they cost $125k-$200k each. You can't compare them to $40k houses, or small-plexes or large apartment buildings. Move your loans from 5-15-30-50 years and boom you made the monthly cash flow you want to brag to people about. Shorten the loan and you can complain about how there's no cash flow as you take in more and more profits until it's paid for.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    Guys, I did not realize there is a debate. I think the birth of $100/door can be traced to Podcast 14, with this guy by the name Ben Leybovich. I think I mentioned it there for the first time.

    The discussion was no-money-down 100% financing. $100/door before value add was my bare minimum hurdle at 100% leverage. 

    I am not suggesting 100% leverage is the same thing as leveraging 100% of the value. Neither am I saying that 100% leverage is the best way to do things, or that you can sustain $100/door without value add.

    This is not a metric that should be used. Neither is Cap Rate. Neither is CCR :)

    There is a place for all of the above in the underwriting narrative, but individually these mean very little.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Bill B.

    It is not hard to find a deal to cashflow at $100/mo.  

    I'm just curious who is buying with this metric now and how it can work in today's market.  I would not be surprised at all if Brandon had this metric investing in Gray's Harbor, WA after the recession as you can still buy single family homes at $40k/unit there and probably rent for $600-$700/mo.  I know that area and it is not the warzone, but it cannot be compared to a bigger MSA where many of us are from either.

    $100/door on a $40k property that rents for $650/mo is a lot different than investing in a place with a $80k property for $1,000/mo making $100/door.  

     but the reality is that most people are not investing in outstate areas like that either.  

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Bill B.

    It is not hard to find a deal to cashflow at $100/mo.  

    I'm just curious who is buying with this metric now and how it can work in today's market.  I would not be surprised at all if Brandon had this metric investing in Gray's Harbor, WA after the recession as you can still buy single family homes at $40k/unit there and probably rent for $600-$700/mo.  I know that area and it is not the warzone, but it cannot be compared to a bigger MSA where many of us are from either.

    $100/door on a $40k property that rents for $650/mo is a lot different than investing in a place with a $80k property for $1,000/mo making $100/door.  

     but the reality is that most people are not investing in outstate areas like that either.  

    I was listening to a BP podcast the other day and they mentioned Brandon using a minimum target of $100/door for multifamily and $200/door for SFH.

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