$100/door debate-sell me on it

$100/door debate-sell me on it

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes

I see a lot of discussion with people saying they want at least $100/door but I don't really understand how it can be a good metric unless there would be a big value add opportunity with a big cash out (limiting the investment) and/or a reliance on appreciation (which I don’t like).

I think there is agreement that $100/door is not a good metric for a limited number of doors, but I struggle to see how it is reasonable even at 100 doors.

I would be interested in hearing from people who agree with the $100/door and those who do not agree with the metric. For those that do agree with the $100/door metric:

1. Have you been investing since before the last recession?

2. If so, how did that work out?

3. If you have not been investing that long, what do you have in place to protect you if we run into another recession like the last?

Below are some of the reasons I do not agree with the $100/door metric and why it is not attractive for me. I would like some good discussion on how I should be open to it as it is easy I can be missing something in my analysis.

For the purposes of the discussion, we will assume 100 doors and that the $100/door factors in PITI, all expenses, property management and a reasonable level of Cap Ex for the property. That is $10,000/mo coming in after expenses and reserves.

Some of the limitations I see with it on the surface are below:

Limited investment returns without relying on appreciation or a big value add

$100/door is only $1,200/yr per unit. If we assume $100/mo in principal pay down per unit as well, that would get the total return to $2,400 per unit per year. Assuming an investor would be ok with a 10% return (I wouldn't invest in this personally), the price per unit would need to be $24,000 which usually means you would be in a warzone or more of a rural area. Even if we assume principal pay down on the high side of $300/mo per unit ($30,000/mo) a 10% return would be $48,000/unit which is still low.

At $100/door, you need to assume minimal equity as the total return would be even lower if the borrower had any significant amount of money down.

At $100/door, this needs to account for a worst-case scenario

Unexpected changes in expenses, vacancy and Cap Ex can have a significant impact and any expense increases need to be passed along to tenants to maintain the $100/door metric. This might not always be possible if the units are already at market rents or are at above market rents. If the units are below market rents, increases can and likely will lead to additional vacancy when rents are increased. You would need an experienced property management team in place as well since there is not much room for error.

Limited ability to withstand changes in the economic cycle

100 doors at $100/door is a return of $10k/mo. If we say the average market rent is $1,000 (a little low for where I am at in MN) and market vacancy is 4% (lower in some areas now) that already factors in 4 units vacant at a given time. With 4% vacancy, the actual profit/door is really $104.16 to make up for the 4 units vacant at a give time but to make things easy we will assume $100/door.

If we enter a recession, we could see higher levels of vacancy and rents declining. The $10,000/mo income relates to additional vacancy of 10 doors to get to break even (86% occupied) or a rent decrease of $104/mo across the board. It seems feasible that either if not both could happen in a recession which means this investment at $100/door could easily cost money every month for as long as the recession lasts. If both happened, the investor will need to have deep pockets to cover $10,000/mo out of their own pocket. $120k/yr is a lot of money to put up for an investment that is losing money. I surely hope the investor would be diversified or has a large outside income source because if their sole source of income is rental real estate in a local area, income from multiple properties will likely drop at the same time limiting the investor’s ability to cover a property that is not performing. Selling it likely will not be feasible either unless the borrower has a lot of equity.

If the rent/unit is greater than $1,000/mo, the investor would have less flexibility in withstanding vacancy and changes in rents than a building with rents lower than $1,000/mo as each additional unit of vacancy will have a larger hit to the investor’s profit. Investing in lower class areas with lower rents would seem to be much more attractive in weathering changes in the economic cycle, as lower rent units are less likely to have large fluctuations in rent as well. At the same time, these investments may take more work to manage too but we can assume you have a strong management company.

Scalability options seem limited

In order to scale, you will need to be able to maintain a minimum DSCR of 1.25. If you have minimal cash equity in the deal above to get a decent Cash on Cash return, it may be difficult to find deals that will meet this metric in the current climate where most deals are overpriced for the level of income they generate. Absent a good value add opportunity with private pre-funding and a cash out, it seems like it might be hard to find many deals in strong areas that could provide a good return at $100/door and would meet the minimum DSCR requirements.

There is more to this and several variables to consider (unit count, avg rents…), but in a situation of 100 units at $1,000 or more a door avg rent, it seems tough for me to call $100/mo per door a great investment unless this a pre value add or is a worst case scenario number that factors in the performance in a declining economic cycle.

Summary

I would be curious to see the thoughts from others whether they agree or disagree as my primary purpose in posting this is to understand how this metric can be a good metric (in any situation) to base an investment decision on. I understand metrics are what they are and cannot be used in every situation, but I fail to understand how this metric can be a good one to use at all and want to clear things up in my mind as I see it being brought up every day on the forums-likely by people who have never even used it, let alone investors that have weathered an economic cycle.

Thinking this through more makes me start to side more with @Jay Hinrichs on his philosophy that wealth is the accumulation of free and clear properties not a bunch of high debt properties providing monthly cash flow as these are the ones susceptible to big problems in the downturn. 

I do not think the properties need to be owned free and clear, but they need enough equity and strong cash flow to protect against the next downturn.  $100/door would be a poor investment return in a deal with a lot of equity and does not lead to a strong level of cash flow in some situations.

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Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent
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  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Nicholas Richard Ray Hopefully more will post their experience!

  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    The only issue with CapEx is its unpredictability nature, and it also depends on the deferred maintenance status of an asset.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Ola Dantis I agree.  If purchasing a property with a lot of deferred maintenance, it can be a short term issue, but it purchasing a property with some newer items or if you factor some of it into your initial analysis of a shorter term deal, it may not be as much of a surprise.  Some items are not too difficult to determine such as the condition of the roof, exterior, interior finishings...  It is also easy to determine how old some of the mechanical items are such as the water heater and furnace.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y

    Page 4 and I'm the first to directly answer your questions. That's incredible @James W.. I agree with you there is a lot of advice given by people who "believe" a certain concept is true but have no real experience in it - a tell tale sign of a rookie's advice everyone needs to ignore. 

    Just so we're on the same playing field, how do you calculate cash flow?

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jay Helms sorry if it looked like I discounted your experience, but I don't know enough about your situation to take much from it.  You were planning a flip and made it through, but I don't know your financial position, how the events impacted it, or know what issues you experienced aside from an assumption that it would have been harder to sell after the downturn. I started with a few flips, but am not in that business now.  I but am personally more interested in the experience of buy and hold investors in that timeframe.  

    As far as how I calculate cash flow, I probably over analyze, I would rather know too much than mess it up.  I built an excel worksheet that

    1. Does a high level analysis given various rent levels and different financing structures (0%, 75%, 80%, and 100%-assuming possible refi desired later)

    2. Completes a detailed analysis of the property at an expected rent level calculating the Cap Rate (even if it doesn't matter), Cash ROI, Total Cash ROI (including amort), DSCR, Fannie/Freddie impact and returns at a few other Cap Ex levels.

    3. I have a page to look long term actual performance with graphs and a separate page where I can input actual performance for tracking (haven't been using yet)

    In my analysis, I will run different scenarios for the property at various rent, vacancy and expense levels to see how it will perform.  My goal is a property that will perform well in a stressed environment but I have not experienced one so it is a guess as of this point.  

    My worksheet calculates the loan terms and payment (all I need to do is input the rate and term)

    My Cap Ex calculation comes from a separate worksheet that looks at replacement items, their expected life and cost estimates to help get a better estimate of actual long term cap ex.  Of course labor/material rates will change, but I did not specifically take that into consideration.

    I can factor in income/expense increases which usually does not look good so I understand I need to ensure I raise rents at the same rate that expenses increase.

    I have automated just about everything so it does not take long to do a quick analysis.  I don't waste the time with a quick napkin analysis as this is just as quick and has more info.  

    If you want to take a look, I can send you an example.  I wouldn't mind feedback if there is something you think I have wrong or don't agree with.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y

    @James W. - happy to look at your spreadsheet. Are you focused on Class A properties for buy & hold?

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jay Helms Mine are planned to be long term buy/hold deals and my current properties are B class.  There doesn't seem to  be as much of a difference in A and B rent in my area so I strive for A class tenants in B class housing.  With the way the market is in my area now, all you can hope for is your payment to be covered with A class housing.  My plan is not just to acquire the asset, so I will leave those places to people who are not as concerned about the return. 

    Most of the deals I look at now don't provide much return so I am looking into more C class areas with stable towns where there is a shortage of rental housing and the cost to build is too high.  While these areas do not appreciate as much, it seems like they can generate a solid return.  @John Woodrich has a 4 plex in one of these areas.  After turning over a tenant, he had over 30 applicants to fill the 2BR/1BA unit.  

    I'll email you a copy of the worksheet I use.  I'll be interested in seeing your thoughts.

  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    @Jay Helms Mine are planned to be long term buy/hold deals and my current properties are B class.  There doesn't seem to  be as much of a difference in A and B rent in my area so I strive for A class tenants in B class housing.  With the way the market is in my area now, all you can hope for is your payment to be covered with A class housing.  My plan is not just to acquire the asset, so I will leave those places to people who are not as concerned about the return. 

    Most of the deals I look at now don't provide much return so I am looking into more C class areas with stable towns where there is a shortage of rental housing and the cost to build is too high.  While these areas do not appreciate as much, it seems like they can generate a solid return.  @John Woodrich has a 4 plex in one of these areas.  After turning over a tenant, he had over 30 applicants to fill the 2BR/1BA unit.  

    I'll email you a copy of the worksheet I use.  I'll be interested in seeing your thoughts.

     And that’s the answer to your question. In my market, cash flow is a sliding scale relative to the property type. Class D properties cash flow the best (if you successfully stay alive by dodging all the bullets) where Class A is a focus on appreciation and not cash flow. If you’re goal is cash flow (in my market) C & D properties produce the best but will appreciate little to none. Class A & B Properties are tough to cash flow here. 

    Will look at your spreadsheet and provide you some feedback soon. 

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jay Helms I think cash flow is a sliding scale in any market based on how high prices are now.  My B properties perform well with cash flow based on my acquisition price and numbers from the time of purchase, but I purchased them when the market was lower which helped quite a bit.  If these were purchased near FMV now, they would not cash flow well but I do not think the amortization of principal and appreciation would not lead to a great investment either.  

    House prices are at an all time high in my area and interest rates are rising, which decreases purchasing power.  I cannot expect the same level of appreciation that I was able to attain purchasing these properties at lows and letting them climb over the last several years.  

    As it is now, I'm sitting on some dead equity in my B properties and am looking to cash out on some of the equity (75% LTV) or possibly sell as I might be able to get a better overall return going forward with something else.

    The areas I am looking at C properties in rent for 75% of the price of a B unit but can be acquired for up to 50% less.  Sure they will not appreciate as much, but if they are in areas with a smaller housing supply and a good level of demand, I don't think they will decline as much in a recession either since there will still be the need in that area.  The cost to build in C areas is not feasible at this time, so I don't need to worry about the big luxury apartment buildings coming into the area flooding the rental market either.  These properties tend to cash flow better and and it is easier to calculate a return with the assumption that it is not reliant on appreciation.  This is why I am looking more into the C tier.  

    I'd be willing to guess many of the value add investors and syndicators that work on large deals are probably also investing in B-/C tier properties.  Their value add depends on how much they can increase rents and it is easier to increase rents by a larger percentage if the starting rent amount is lower.  

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