$100/door debate-sell me on it

$100/door debate-sell me on it

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes

I see a lot of discussion with people saying they want at least $100/door but I don't really understand how it can be a good metric unless there would be a big value add opportunity with a big cash out (limiting the investment) and/or a reliance on appreciation (which I don’t like).

I think there is agreement that $100/door is not a good metric for a limited number of doors, but I struggle to see how it is reasonable even at 100 doors.

I would be interested in hearing from people who agree with the $100/door and those who do not agree with the metric. For those that do agree with the $100/door metric:

1. Have you been investing since before the last recession?

2. If so, how did that work out?

3. If you have not been investing that long, what do you have in place to protect you if we run into another recession like the last?

Below are some of the reasons I do not agree with the $100/door metric and why it is not attractive for me. I would like some good discussion on how I should be open to it as it is easy I can be missing something in my analysis.

For the purposes of the discussion, we will assume 100 doors and that the $100/door factors in PITI, all expenses, property management and a reasonable level of Cap Ex for the property. That is $10,000/mo coming in after expenses and reserves.

Some of the limitations I see with it on the surface are below:

Limited investment returns without relying on appreciation or a big value add

$100/door is only $1,200/yr per unit. If we assume $100/mo in principal pay down per unit as well, that would get the total return to $2,400 per unit per year. Assuming an investor would be ok with a 10% return (I wouldn't invest in this personally), the price per unit would need to be $24,000 which usually means you would be in a warzone or more of a rural area. Even if we assume principal pay down on the high side of $300/mo per unit ($30,000/mo) a 10% return would be $48,000/unit which is still low.

At $100/door, you need to assume minimal equity as the total return would be even lower if the borrower had any significant amount of money down.

At $100/door, this needs to account for a worst-case scenario

Unexpected changes in expenses, vacancy and Cap Ex can have a significant impact and any expense increases need to be passed along to tenants to maintain the $100/door metric. This might not always be possible if the units are already at market rents or are at above market rents. If the units are below market rents, increases can and likely will lead to additional vacancy when rents are increased. You would need an experienced property management team in place as well since there is not much room for error.

Limited ability to withstand changes in the economic cycle

100 doors at $100/door is a return of $10k/mo. If we say the average market rent is $1,000 (a little low for where I am at in MN) and market vacancy is 4% (lower in some areas now) that already factors in 4 units vacant at a given time. With 4% vacancy, the actual profit/door is really $104.16 to make up for the 4 units vacant at a give time but to make things easy we will assume $100/door.

If we enter a recession, we could see higher levels of vacancy and rents declining. The $10,000/mo income relates to additional vacancy of 10 doors to get to break even (86% occupied) or a rent decrease of $104/mo across the board. It seems feasible that either if not both could happen in a recession which means this investment at $100/door could easily cost money every month for as long as the recession lasts. If both happened, the investor will need to have deep pockets to cover $10,000/mo out of their own pocket. $120k/yr is a lot of money to put up for an investment that is losing money. I surely hope the investor would be diversified or has a large outside income source because if their sole source of income is rental real estate in a local area, income from multiple properties will likely drop at the same time limiting the investor’s ability to cover a property that is not performing. Selling it likely will not be feasible either unless the borrower has a lot of equity.

If the rent/unit is greater than $1,000/mo, the investor would have less flexibility in withstanding vacancy and changes in rents than a building with rents lower than $1,000/mo as each additional unit of vacancy will have a larger hit to the investor’s profit. Investing in lower class areas with lower rents would seem to be much more attractive in weathering changes in the economic cycle, as lower rent units are less likely to have large fluctuations in rent as well. At the same time, these investments may take more work to manage too but we can assume you have a strong management company.

Scalability options seem limited

In order to scale, you will need to be able to maintain a minimum DSCR of 1.25. If you have minimal cash equity in the deal above to get a decent Cash on Cash return, it may be difficult to find deals that will meet this metric in the current climate where most deals are overpriced for the level of income they generate. Absent a good value add opportunity with private pre-funding and a cash out, it seems like it might be hard to find many deals in strong areas that could provide a good return at $100/door and would meet the minimum DSCR requirements.

There is more to this and several variables to consider (unit count, avg rents…), but in a situation of 100 units at $1,000 or more a door avg rent, it seems tough for me to call $100/mo per door a great investment unless this a pre value add or is a worst case scenario number that factors in the performance in a declining economic cycle.

Summary

I would be curious to see the thoughts from others whether they agree or disagree as my primary purpose in posting this is to understand how this metric can be a good metric (in any situation) to base an investment decision on. I understand metrics are what they are and cannot be used in every situation, but I fail to understand how this metric can be a good one to use at all and want to clear things up in my mind as I see it being brought up every day on the forums-likely by people who have never even used it, let alone investors that have weathered an economic cycle.

Thinking this through more makes me start to side more with @Jay Hinrichs on his philosophy that wealth is the accumulation of free and clear properties not a bunch of high debt properties providing monthly cash flow as these are the ones susceptible to big problems in the downturn. 

I do not think the properties need to be owned free and clear, but they need enough equity and strong cash flow to protect against the next downturn.  $100/door would be a poor investment return in a deal with a lot of equity and does not lead to a strong level of cash flow in some situations.

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Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
So the assumption you're making is that you are purchasing all cash and making $100 per door, which is crazy. I want to see $100 per door at 100% financed, with zero invested. So if I had 100 doors, each making $100, I'd be making $10,000/mo without investing a dime of my own money, which I'll take any day. You also have to take I to consideration the tax advantages of owning property. There is also the opportunity to raise rent over the years. Rarely have rental rates declined for an extended time. Even during the last recession, arguably the second worst in US history, rental rates barely moved, and in some places actually rose due to demand. So while $100 per door seems slim, if reserved correctly, can lead to a nice portfolio generating enough income to be financially independent
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  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Thanks for adding Mike Dymski The exact thing I am trying to get at is that new investors are trying to learn and that the info they are being given isn’t necessarily safe at all. It can work for an experienced investor in a value add scenario, but is not a good rule of thumb at all.
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y
    Good points Will Grabert A few things I did not even consider!
  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    In my opinion, the $100/door is usually more applicable to larger apartment buildings and it is a rule of thumb, not gospel, and it shouldn't be gospel. 

    Every deal is going to be different, so many variables at play here. Variables such as Markets, Asset Class, Neighbourhood Class, and/or Value-Add component (or not).

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    8y

    When investing you HOPE for the best but PLAN for the worst.

    The multifamily market is over heated. People are paying ultra low cap rates in hopes the rent growth train keeps on chugging along at a feverish pace to blend their cap rates up to acceptable levels over time. It's a betting man's game where I saw many lose it all last downturn in 2007.

    It's funny today you have all these investors (chasing the cheese) wanting cap rates of 6 years ago with the economic recovery of today. Most of this stuff simply no longer exists in the great areas. Those that bought at the bottom are holding long term after refi out the equity or are selling off for big gains. I am seeing multifamily stuff in trash areas where they are selling D to F areas as revitalized and up and coming B areas! LOL

    People keep sucking down the koolade and drinking the stuff.

    Today the small multifamily stuff under 100 units in great areas for great cap rates is a Unicorn and 1 in a 1,000. Those talking about higher numbers per door than 100 are generally taking on tougher assets and areas to work for yield.

    The original poster seems to be coming at things from a cash flow perspective. Investors views on things can change with how much someone makes a year and net worth with liquidity.

    Example a doctor bringing in 700,000 a year income might take 5% return that is passive with tax benefits all day long.

    Conversely  an investor that is younger in age making 50k a year and trying to quit that J-O-B might be looking to maximize cash flow today and might care less about tax savings or equity growth way down the road. They look at those things but they tend to be secondary.

    When investors get 3,5,10 million net worth and up what they usually look at is (What is the annual yield, is it a headache, how safe is the investment and preservation of my capital?).

    If someone is worth 10 million and have 2 million invested at 7% that is 140,000 a year. Most people in the U.S. can live great off of that. Conversely an investor making 50k a year and investing 10k at 7% is only 700 a year. So these investors tend to think of (maximum cash flow) to get out of the rat race.

    Some of my ultra wealthy clients it is true some buy directly with me as the broker and others just want to invest with sponsors (place money). 

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    When investing you HOPE for the best but PLAN for the worst.

    The multifamily market is over heated. People are paying ultra low cap rates in hopes the rent growth train keeps on chugging along at a feverish pace to blend their cap rates up to acceptable levels over time. It's a betting man's game where I saw many lose it all last downturn in 2007.

    It's funny today you have all these investors (chasing the cheese) wanting cap rates of 6 years ago with the economic recovery of today. Most of this stuff simply no longer exists in the great areas. Those that bought at the bottom are holding long term after refi out the equity or are selling off for big gains. I am seeing multifamily stuff in trash areas where they are selling D to F areas as revitalized and up and coming B areas! LOL

    People keep sucking down the koolade and drinking the stuff.

    Today the small multifamily stuff under 100 units in great areas for great cap rates is a Unicorn and 1 in a 1,000. Those talking about higher numbers per door than 100 are generally taking on tougher assets and areas to work for yield.

    The original poster seems to be coming at things from a cash flow perspective. Investors views on things can change with how much someone makes a year and net worth with liquidity.

    Example a doctor bringing in 700,000 a year income might take 5% return that is passive with tax benefits all day long.

    Conversely  an investor that is younger in age making 50k a year and trying to quit that J-O-B might be looking to maximize cash flow today and might care less about tax savings or equity growth way down the road. They look at those things but they tend to be secondary.

    When investors get 3,5,10 million net worth and up what they usually look at is (What is the annual yield, is it a headache, how safe is the investment and preservation of my capital?).

    If someone is worth 10 million and have 2 million invested at 7% that is 140,000 a year. Most people in the U.S. can live great off of that. Conversely an investor making 50k a year and investing 10k at 7% is only 700 a year. So these investors tend to think of (maximum cash flow) to get out of the rat race.

    Some of my ultra wealthy clients it is true some buy directly with me as the broker and others just want to invest with sponsors (place money). 

    Great post and info.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks for posting @Joel Owens

    The main reason the post focuses on the cash flow side is to look at the investor's protection in a stressed environment.  I agree that cash flow is only a part of the investor's return, but loan amortization and appreciation do not pay the debt service either.  

    Investors with deeper pockets do not necessarily need the cash flow, but I am guessing that is not the case with most of the people who post on here.  Most of the people posting on here asking about what they should aim to get in cash flow likely are not the ones just looking for a safe place to park their cash.

  • Investor · Woodbury, MN · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 72 votes
    8y

    I love the different perspectives on this.  I'm sure most people's idyllic scenario is probably somewhere in the middle here.  These are very valuable perspectives.  Thanks for the great post. 

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Josh Collins, one would hope you can get both, but it isn't always there in a given market.  

    There seems to be a group of people who couldn't care less about cash flow, and a group that think it is everything.  I think it somewhat depends on the area the investor is in, their strategy and how deep their pockets are.  

    I am more slanted to the cash flow side given our market but would prefer to invest in areas with an upside too.  If I look at a property just for cash flow, it would need to cash flow well to consider.  

    While cash flow isn't everything, appreciation does not pay the bills in a stressed environment and hurts the investor's ability to scale into additional investments.  

    Another thing some fail to consider is how the scale can help the investor over time.  For example, if an investor buys one property that does not cash flow but has the chance of upside from appreciation, they may be stuck as that is all they might be able to invest in.  On the other hand, if that investor purchases a few homes that cash flow well, over time, they will have the ability to use the cash flow from those properties to go after a house that provides less cash flow and has a higher chance of appreciation.

  • Investor · Woodbury, MN · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 72 votes
    8y

    @James W. You're post got me self-analyzing a bit.  To put my finger on it, what most investors are probably looking for (and by most, I mean the people in the middle of the spectrum) is something that cashflows pretty well (10%+) but also has upside.  I would think that is the Holy Grail, to be a bit cliche.  There is always the option of forced equity which helps with the appreciation side of things.  But I'm guessing a lot of forced equity projects cost money or come at the expense of cashflow.  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Josh Collins It is always ideal to get a property with some upside whether it is the ability to improve the property and increase rents or a property in a high demand area that might have a good chance of appreciation.

    The value of 5+ property is derived by the income it generates where as the value of 1-4 depends on the sales comparison market value.  In our market, most 1-4 families will not cash flow well as the market value of the property is higher than the value that would be derived from an income standpoint right now.  People investing in many of these will usually need appreciation to get a decent return on their money.  

    You can force appreciation in 5+.  To do so, you would need to increase the income of the property.  An example would be renovating an apartment complex and increasing the rents as a result.  The increase in rents would lead to an increase in value assuming your new rents are not greater than market rents for a similar property.

    In the 1-4 family realm, forced equity would need to be a renovation, but investing more hurts your overall return if holding the property and usually hurts your cash flow unless you are able to get more in rents.  1-4 family properties financed at market value do not cash flow too well so it might be ideal to sell unless there is reason to believe the home will appreciate.

  • Investor · Woodbury, MN · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 72 votes
    8y

    @Will G. I'm going to beat my demographics drum here a little bit.  In the name of playing the devils advocate, I think the tight cap rates for multi are banking on future demand and therefore rising rents.  I think they are onto something.  Now with that said, would I get in at a 5 cap because I think rents are going to rise?  Nope.  

    I agree with you that the fast money is following multi right now though.  That could mean trouble when their commercial loans reset in 5 yrs if rates are 2% higher.  But hopefully they'll have paid down some principal where they can at least refi without losing the property.  If not, maybe you'll be able to pick up some cheap multi 5 years from today!  If so, I just hope I have enough dry powder!  

  • Investor · Woodbury, MN · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 72 votes
    8y

    @James W. On smaller RE (1-4 family) I was specifically thinking about people turning california or florida rooms (covered porches where I'm from) into another bedroom and adding another bathroom to cheaply add rental value and equity.  Therefore turning a 2/1 into a 3/2, for example.  But like I said, it costs money upfront.  But I hear this tcan turn a non-cashflowing property into a cashflowing one depending on the market.  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Josh Collins Adding a bedroom can lead to equity and value, but it still needs to take into consideration the layout and function of the house as well.  I have finished basements in older homes adding a bedroom with an egress window which has accomplished this, but changing a porch could lead to an unusual layout or a home that does not have a porch where others in the area do.  Whether it is worth it or not will likely depend on the property.

  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y

    @James W. - I agree with the $100/door as we use it a minimum when napkin testing a potential buy & hold rental. 

    To your questions:

    1. sort of, bought my first investment property in 2006 as a live in flip, the recession hit
    2. we took a course correction making it a buy & hold, eventually sold 10 years later and migrated the equity into more B&H
    3. We go after opportunities that meet our tripod of investing criteria (purchase price < 20% market value, $100/door cash flow minimum, 12% CoCR). We also stick to B & C neighborhoods where rental price points will accommodate a wide variety of tenant and we put back every month for our Vacancy expense. 

    What does your current portfolio consist of? By that I mean, what experience do you have to pose the disagreement? And what is your WHY to investing in real estate?

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jay Helms  Thanks for responding to the questions.  You are the first one to directly answer them.  This discussion is on page 4, I have yet to get a viewpoint from someone who has invested prior to the last recession with experience on how it impacted their vacancy or rents.  I appreciate everyone's viewpoints, but hope the thread may find a few with long term buy/hold experience.

    My Experience and Portfolio

    I've invested off an on since the last crash (started in 2008) so I do not have experience before that timeframe.  I started in a few flips but have a demanding job so I moved towards rentals as my time is/was getting more limited.

    I started with rentals when prices were low and in my area, the cost/unit for a SFR was fairly comparable to a unit in a multi family. I went the way of SFRs as I was new, I liked the exit strategy (investor or owner occ) and I could get more in renting a SFR than a unit in an apartment.

    I coasted for a bit with a few rentals while changing positions a few times at work and built up some equity in the SFRs like everyone else. As it is now, I only have my residence, 4 investment SFRs and a triplex, but my brother and I had more properties before splitting our assets. I am kicking the tire with possibly purchasing 12 unit now but still need to work through more of the details on the project. I'm in the process of either cashing out or getting out of the SFRs I have to scale better as the equity I acquired is dead money sitting in the homes and they will not perform as well if I get a conventional loan at 75% LTV.

    Since I have a limited amount of properties, good cash flow makes it easier to build additional capital and withstand changes in the performance of a property.  That is why I think cash flow is important for newer investors with a lower number of units or capital at their disposal.

    My WHY for RE

    I invest in RE as a means to have better control over my investments with the hopes of getting better than market returns. I look to get at least a 15% COC return with a goal of >20%. I like how real estate allows me to leverage my money to acquire assets as well. I have a good job and am not looking for real estate to replace it. It is something I enjoy doing though.

    Why I posted this topic

    When it comes to the $100/door, I am not trying to suggest I have more experience than anyone.  I am simply posing the question where the concept came from and how it is supported.  In thinking it through myself, a low cash flow scenario such as $100/door seems like it might have more trouble withstanding changes in the economic cycle as it takes cash to pay the debt service.  Equity and appreciation do not pay a debt regardless of how well a property appreciates and it will be harder to get the money out when times are tough.  Cash flow is only a part of the return on an investment, but is the only means of servicing the debt.

    My concern is that new investors on this forum get several people telling them their goal is $100/door and this gives them some sense that it is a good metric to strive for.  New investors who do not have substantial savings or a good outside income could be in a tough spot if they invest everything in a property with minimal cash flow.  Outside the fact that their numbers are probably wrong to begin with, it will hurt their ability to scale and could lead to problems if they need to pay out of pocket due to a change in the economic cycle.

    I do not agree with the $100/door goal for new investors but if someone has experience or deep pockets and wants to give it a go with the thought that appreciation will lead to a high return, they can have at it.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @James W.  well to answer your question about anyone who invested before 2008.. that be me.

    I was basically retired by then.. but then the crash  rentals went poof loans went poof.. developments went poof.. commercial buildings I had that were great my tenants were going banko.

    kind of depended on the area some areas like

    Vegas,  PHX  ATL  FLA  central CA  Inland empire  in urban areas of most MSA's they all got hammered

    places went vacant.. many multis got below sustainability and or loans were due and had to be called it was a nightmare.. long standing billion dollar real estate firms like Opus from your area TOAST

    it was all across the board .. some areas not so bad others as stated huge wipe out.

    for me I lost millions.. and first to admit .. but then I did not lose my ability to get whence I came I just retooled and went after it again.. so that was when I was 51 when that happened now I am 61 and about back to where I was and frankly like many in our business after your second or third wipe out you get stronger.. so for me now and I know its Totally contrarian on BP but I am debt adverse have  very little and have no interest in quote un quote good debt.. there was NO good debt back in 08.

    just ask all the new syndicators that are doing these deals where the deals came from last crop that lost them or did not have the money to properly maintain them..

    and investor that bought with 100 cash flow max debt I ended up owning about 250 of those homes from those that I foreclosed on that bought under these exact same scenarios your all talking about.

    so that's my experience now I am MR> Blue sky and I am not predicting a 08 wipe out by any means but as one ages and lives through that nightmare ( and one of the few of my peirs that did not get totally wiped out and did not BK)  I am just way more conservative now.. And I would no way no how buy any real estate that only made 100 a month the risk of borrowing the money does not equate to the reward for me personally.. little hiccup and poof..

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the input @Jay Hinrichs

    From what I have gathered during my short time on here, it seems like many of the people on here started investing after the crash like myself.  

    The $100/mo seems scary to me in weathering a storm and it looks like it can happen again given all of the current speculation going on.  

    Cash flow is only a piece of the investment return, but it is what will keep the property out of the bank's hand during an economic change, which is why I am as surprised with the amount of people looking at $100/door.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James W.:

    Thanks for the input @Jay Hinrichs

    From what I have gathered during my short time on here, it seems like many of the people on here started investing after the crash like myself.  

    The $100/mo seems scary to me in weathering a storm and it looks like it can happen again given all of the current speculation going on.  

    Cash flow is only a piece of the investment return, but it is what will keep the property out of the bank's hand during an economic change, which is why I am as surprised with the amount of people looking at $100/door.

    yup rising tides raise all boats..

    and many many are totally spoiled thinking that rents SHOULD be 2X rule or what have you .. or that rental property with a minimum down SHOULD throw off positive cash flow.

    that ship sailed by the middle 80s in the Bay ARea were I germinated my real estate career cash flow only happened when you payed cash or put at least half down.. I always wondered what people meant by it has to cash flow.

    it was only in the last ten years I realized what they meant.. it has to cash flow with max debt.. because to me everything cash flow when you pay cash.. unless like 08 to 2010 in some areas were you had 100 % vacancies for a few years in a row..  this thought that rentals are immune and if economy gets tough rentals will be stronger I don't buy that that's not what happened as I stated in many markets from 08 to 2011.

    I had clients load up on 4 plexs for 350k each in PHX market in 04 ish.. they would buy 2 to 4 of them each by 09 those same units were 100% vacant and trashed and stayed that way for a while and those investor walked got their credit trashed for a decade and lost their downpayments.. those 4 plexs were trading in 2010 for under 100k each.

    I bid on 120 brand new sfr s for 100k a door in 2009 in Fort Meyers area.. bank liquidating a builder.. darn near took it down.. those houses buy 2011 went on the steps for 30 to 40k each.. I bought half dozen the ran out of cash :) but being the non long term holder that I am I sold them to Germans for 10 to 20k profits in 30 to 45 days.. that's how we ate..  those houses in 04 ish when they started building them were selling for 225k a door new.. that's how far the market eroded in that particular area.

    I had loans on houses in Atlanta that I ended up owning... HML 05 06 appraisals at 140 to 160 my loans were at 80 to 90k by the time I got them back I had to sell them for 40k one I sold for 33k.. that was all I could get for cash at the time.. so yes it can happen and again I am not predicting that but you live through that you come out the other end not wanting to load up on GOOD debt.. you just think maybe free in clear is not so bad let everyone else go into debt.

  • O Fallon, MO · Member since 2017 · 59 posts · 21 votes
    8y

    Great food for though @James W.. I'm a new investor and most of what I've heard has been $100-200 / door as a recommendation.

    I think like a lot of people, I'm actually comfortable with it. I am in small residential multi-family though so as pointed out it's a bit of a different animal than large commercial building such as the 100 unit example.

    It was discussed a bit what the definition of "free cash flow" is to a few people here - most all of us can agree it's your PITI and expenses subtracted from gross income. Here's where it starts to differ investor to investor - what "expenses" are to one investor may not be to another. One person may account for new paint, carpet, (insert item here) setting aside money monthly for the next turnover, one person may just accept that as part of a turnover expense to pay at that time. The last thing I think that could make a big difference on what each investor gets at the end of their calculations as cash flow depends heavily on the percentage they keep for the different categories.

    10% aside monthly for repairs, capex, vacancy, and management is a big difference than what I have been using for my numbers which is 5/5/10/10 - and even vastly different than someone who may be aggressive, or just want it to look better than it is, and only do 5% across the board. 

    Different strokes for different folks.

  • South Jersey · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 35 votes
    8y
    James Woodrich Is a duplex at $80k (25% down making it $60k mortgage) renting at $1525/mo combined — $550-600/mo cash flow a bad deal to you?
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs I was lucky enough to buy a few of the dumpier properties to fix up after the last crash which is how I got the money for other investments.  I was just out of college at the time and am glad I did not decide to push into real estate a few years earlier.  I knew someone in AZ who picked up a few of the smaller multis you were talking about for about $90k a piece.  I am not sure if he still has them, but I'm sure he does not regret that decision.  

    Real estate is not a full time endeavor for me, but my goal is to have several paid off properties when I retire and the properties can be my hobby to keep me busy.  I have a ways to go and things can always change, but it would be nice to be able to pass on some paid off properties to future generations as well.

    @Nicholas Richard Ray the $100/$200 recommendations are why I created this post.  It seems like a fairly common recommendation from what I have seen and really does not leave much room for error.  Even if you put away ample reserves, there is nothing saying your Cap Ex expenses (busted water line of new roof) will not take place around the time of a recession.  They are put away for a purpose-not as a secondary loan repayment source.  Also, as Jay said, places had much higher vacancy for an expanded period of time.  I am not sure what type of properties you invest in, but estimating expenses as a percentage of gross income does not mean much if you cannot sustain the same level of gross income.  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Dawn Curry How does it relate to properties that cash flow $100/door?

    The situation you discussed would depend.  To even be able to provide input, I would need to know the following at a minimum:

    1. Why is the property so cheap? (In the hood or small rural town)

    2. What is the housing supply like in the area?

    3. What is the demand for housing in the area?

    4 How do those rents compare with market rents?

    5. How would I finance it since it is too low for a standard conforming mortgage?

    6. Does that cash flow include property taxes, insurance, and owner paid utilities?

    7. What are the assumptions for vacancy, repairs, Cap Ex, snow/lawn?

    8. Would I be managing myself or would someone else do it?

    9. How much work would it be to manage?

    10. This question reserved for when I think of something else I missed above.

    I could easily see it as a bad deal without knowing the answer to the items above.  The $40k/unit is a red flag in itself.  

  • O Fallon, MO · Member since 2017 · 59 posts · 21 votes
    8y

    In the case of Cap Ex occurring during a recession - that doesn't affect Buy and Hold investors in the big picture, right? If you buy a property for the long term, buy it right, secured financing, and manage it properly then a recession, which at this point I assume we're both referring to it as that to indicate a drop in housing prices, would not be an issue. Your Cap Ex reserves are there until you use them, not until the economy takes a turn for the worse. 

    As far as not being a secondary loan repayment source, I agree. I personally wouldn't use reserves for Cap Ex for loan payment - that's what your vacancy expense is being accounted for. This might be a difference in opinion on how to operate. 

    I have 3 "buckets" - (1) is filled with reserves for Cap Ex and repairs, and there is an allocation for both categories so it's not just 5% it's 10% in this bucket. (2) is filled with Vacancy reserves. (3) is the allocation for Management which I account for at this point in case I don't want to manage my own down the line but I actually just divvy that into the the other 2 buckets currently.

    Also, this is my situation specifically, I work a W2 job and live under my means to be able to save and invest. I say that because for my own properties if they are vacant I will only use the vacancy bucket I've built up during that time period while still putting money into the 2 other buckets from my own personal income or the cash flows of another property. Essentially, I'm going to set aside reserves based on max gross income - full occupancy - at all times.

    These are the sacrifices I'm positioned and willing to take because it works for me and my goals - again hugely situational.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Nicholas Richard Ray I would think the Cap Ex numbers would be more important for a long term buy and hold investor compared to a short term investor.  The short term investor may not have to recognize as much for Cap Ex if they buy a property in reasonably good shape, do a good inspection on the front end and get out before anything big comes.  

    It sounds like your intent is to be conservative, which is not the case for everyone on here.  There will always be the draw of high returns on very minimal money down even though the return leads to a lot of work and very few dollars coming back to the investor.  

  • O Fallon, MO · Member since 2017 · 59 posts · 21 votes
    8y
    James Woodrich that’s a very valid point in the case of long term investor for CapEx. I think you could argue it’s very important for the short term too just because they have specific numbers and timelines likely so one CapEx item and their numbers just went wonky. Now I’m just TRYING to see the other side. Great post again, it provided a lot of content to digest and great debate!
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