Bold Prediction: Real Estate Prices Drop 30-60% in Metro. Cities

Bold Prediction: Real Estate Prices Drop 30-60% in Metro. Cities

Member since 2017 · 62 posts · 60 votes

As our stock market begins to recover, Covid-19 cases seem to be "slowing" down, and the economy seems to be through the worst of this pandemic, I am far from convinced this is even close to over. 

It seems we are seeing a type of systematic breakdown of the current system. Does that mean end of the world? No. 

But it does mean significantly lower prices and dismantling of the euphoric drivers of optimism into all markets. It surprises me to see no posts about worries about our financial markets or how these types of environments can create the domino effect that could roll over into real estate and creating deflationary pressures in real estate over the next several years which should be equivalent if not worse than 2008-2009. 

The 2008-2009 subprime crisis was a direct result of real estate literally being the driver that almost brought the global economy down. I don't think we'll ever see a subprime crisis again. CDOs accounted for $800 billion and single handedly drove the economy into the worst recession since the Great Depression. Sure it won't be the exact same cause, but most likely the same effect. Lower prices.

Although we don't have to worry about CDOs, we do have another serious issue which could be potentially worse for real estate. Mortgage Backed Securities (aka MBS).  MBS make up 8 trillion dollars of our economy! Almost 10 fold what CDOs were. If that doesn't concern you, I'll let you be. But liquidity getting sucked out of these indexes will affect housing prices.

I began posting about drivers in real estate in major metropolitan areas, discussing some of the main drivers in these areas (hint: foreign buyers). This demand shock drove prices to astronomical levels since ~2014. However, we began to see real estate begin to cool off in major cities as these buyers began to disappear. 

It is here I believe the second phase of the problem begins. Not only has demand fallen since the end of 2018, but now we are going to see major issues with MBS. The issues with our economy will eventually roll over into Real Estate. Real Estate tends to move in a lag as a result of recessionary and deflationary (prices going down) pressures so these effects will not be see the full effects for months, even years. I do not think all markets fall by 30-60%, but I do see a lot of major metropolitan areas (Seattle, Bay Area, New York, LA) falling around this much. Areas with smaller markets that experienced linear growth rather than exponential growth should fair well and shouldn't see significant drops in prices.

1) How do Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS) work? 

Answer: To simplify it as much as possible let's use an example.
Bob wants a loan for a house. He goes to his Mortgage Broker, Johnson for the loan. Johnson goes to the bank on Bob's behalf, and the bank sends Bob the loan.

The bank then sells Bob's loan to Fannie and Freddie. Fannie and Freddie then give the loan to the bank, where the bank profits off the difference in interest rates from Fannie and Freddie.

Fannie and Freddie take a bundle of loans like Bob's which they've collected from all sorts of banks all over the US and create this Mortgage Backed Security. Is this Mortgage Backed Security determined based off anything like creditworthiness, risk, etc.? Nope not at all. 

Fannie and Freddie then put this Mortgage Backed Security in the MBS Open Market where a buyer usually buys this bundled security. Typically it's pension fund or investment bank like (Morgan Stanley & Goldman Sachs). Here's a list of the 22 biggest MBS Funds to give you an idea.

All in all, this theoretically allows everyone to benefit. Off a couple of important assumptions: Prices rise and we have buyers for Mortgage Backed Securities. 

If prices continue to go up. The banker makes money off the spread, Fannie and Freddie sell the MBS' at a profit, the mortgage banker gives out loans and gets his commission, and the home buyer benefits from a rising housing prices. 

What happens when no one wants the MBS? This leads to a domino effect of freddie and fannie not collecting bank mortgages because no one will buy the MBS, so in effect credit gets tighter. Housing stays on market longer than normal and there are less buyers. 

In addition many of the MBS are on margin accounts so when prices of the MBS fall enough it forces the investor to make a margin call (or a basic decision); you can either deposit more money to keep the fund liquid, or sell assets (in this case, MBS). 

All in all, we are seeing the signals of a slowing real estate market. 

Home supply is expected to increase once the Covid-19 virus is lifted.

Credit is tightening (banking standards and the amount of loans Fannie and Freddie can issue), less home buyers to fill this demand side.

MBS selling pressure and margin calls will in turn suck out liquidity that's already exiting with tightening credit that goes directly to people like Bob or you and me. 

To summarize what should follow is this: selling pressure, lack of buyers, and sudden shock to business and commercial real estate MBS' will have a roll over effect into all real estate. This lag has more to do with how long it takes housing to catch up to the wits of the economy. Prices begin falling over a longer haul and perhaps we can begin looking for opportunities in 2-4 years. 

Have a good one everyone, and as always please feel free to discuss.

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
6y

You're missing, or avoiding to prove you point, the most important fact.  The economic crisis you speak of isn't a crisis...it's a temporary problem because the cause of the economic problem wasn't economically based.  The economy was doing just fine before the virus hit us.  What you will see is a pent up demand being released.

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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    6y

    You're missing, or avoiding to prove you point, the most important fact.  The economic crisis you speak of isn't a crisis...it's a temporary problem because the cause of the economic problem wasn't economically based.  The economy was doing just fine before the virus hit us.  What you will see is a pent up demand being released.

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    You really took some time thinking this through, @Babek Sandhar. While I disagree with your conclusion, it's nice to see people trying to walk the situation end to end instead of just parroting what they hear on CBNC. Oh, man, I hate CNBC.

    Your argument rests on the idea that MBS will lose value and create a crisis. The Fed announced that it would buy an unlimited amount of MBS. An. Unlimited. Amount. That will keep the secondary market stable. In fact, as lending standards tighten newly issued MBS will inherently carry less risk. We may also see the reverse of what you're describing: Lending standards tighten, fewer (but safer) mortgages are issued, fewer mortgages means fewer new MBS, fewer (and safer) MBS go up in price (down in yield) as supply can't meet demand. Everyone is freaked out about what a RE crash like 2008 does if it were to happen on top of COVID. The Fed isn't going to let that happen. 

    As to a decline of 30-60%, I strongly disagree with your conclusion that it will hit major metros like Seattle, NYC, SF the hardest. Those are the places with the strongest fundamentals*. There is strong job growth as companies cluster to "innovation islands," an increase in population follows, and they are geographically constrained making development harder and much more expensive (unlike DFW, for example). NYC is a bit of a different story. It is in a precarious position of having way more supply (specifically luxury housing) coming on line over the next 12-24 months than the market can absorb. 

    Additionally, there is a ton of pent-up demand in these markets. Many people are priced out, so when prices do float down a bit there's a huge pool of buyers ready to pounce. These are very well qualified buyers.

    Where we probably will see huge declines are the usual suspects: Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix. Economies that are relatively new and/or heavily based on tourism/recreation or other industries that rely on disposable income.

    Other than my NYC example above, why do you think supply will increase once we're on the other side of COVID? If anything there will be less construction during the pandemic.

    *This is, of course, with the caveat that no one has a crystal ball or knows quite how COVID will impact the "fundamentals" or for how long.

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    It’s also misleading to say you don’t see any posts about this leading to a financial or real estate price crash. You MIGHT be only the 100th person to say this, but more likely you’re the 1000th, or possibly 10,000th. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2016 · 37 posts · 99 votes
    6y

    I agree with Joe and Jaysen. Of course nobody knows for sure, but both Matthew Gardner (Chief Economist for Windermere) and Lawrence Yun (Chief Economist for the NAR) are predicting the same thing: if the economy goes back to a somewhat normal activity level by fall, that we're likely to see a postponement of the regular spring housing market into fall where pent up demand, low interest rates and low supply cause house prices to increase even further.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    So you are predicting the largest real estate crash since the Fall of Rome, that you expect to be many multiples worse than the financial crisis, which was caused by housing? 

  • Kansas City · Member since 2019 · 162 posts · 54 votes
    6y
    @Joe VIlleneauve, I really hope you're right!

    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    You're missing, or avoiding to prove you point, the most important fact.  The economic crisis you speak of isn't a crisis...it's a temporary problem because the cause of the economic problem wasn't economically based.  The economy was doing just fine before the virus hit us.  What you will see is a pent up demand being released.

  • Kansas City · Member since 2019 · 162 posts · 54 votes
    6y

    I really enjoy the thoughtful discussion on this thread. Lots of really solid perspectives. 

    There are a lot of people around the world way smarter than I am working to answer this very question - that said I think the best any of us can really do is present some hypotheses about what the future(s) could look like. 

    A few things to keep in mind when building our scenarios/hypotheses: 

    1. Timeline to an antidote - at the moment we're looking at early 2021 until there's some sort of vaccination. Because of that, the likelihood of recurrence is high even after this initial wave has passed and we (hopefully) return to a more normal state. That will likely result in an extended timeline until consumer behaviors have normalized. What that 'new normal' looks like remains to be seen. Many individuals who were furloughed are going into their 401(k)s to cover expenses, and millennials who are saddled with student and consumer debt, and who were already suffering a form of PTSD from 2008, will likely only become more cautious. That may be a good thing for landlords, since lower-cost rental demand could increase. We will see.

    2. Great Bull market run - pre COVID we were already at the tail end of a typical 10-year economic cycle and bull market run following 2008. Yes, the debate has been going on for some years now about when the correction would occur, but many people recognized that public market valuations had at least become untethered from underlying fundamentals. So is the current situation entirely being driven by COVID, or is COVID just starting the broader market correction many have been anticipating? 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y

    @Babek Sandhar I remember a post you did a while back that predicted this crisis mirrors the Great Depression. It looks like you are back with a new prediction. I predict this is not your last prediction.

    That being said, I do see some metropolitan areas being hit hard by this. If anything, this crisis has shown that being tied to metropolitan geographies is not necessary to do most jobs. Being in high density areas has proven unsafe during this crisis. Being trapped in a small home or apartment has proven very unpleasant for many people. I think that makes the suburbs or even middle America more appealing. Add to that, ability to pay for housing is tied to employment, it only follows logic that high unemployment will increase default and reduce the pool of buyers.

    As far as those who predict a V shaped recovery, I fear that is not happening. We will be dealing with some level of social distancing through at least the end of 2020. It will not be "business as usual" by June. Even if things accelerated back to old norms, there is still the reality that damage has already been done. The government spending, unemployment, lost business, lost tax revenue, skipped mortgage payments will all boomerang back in the coming months. Many businesses are going to be bankrupt. Many will close their doors and never reopen. Entire industries like airlines, tourism, conventions, entertainment venues, gambling, theme parks, cruise ships, movie theaters and more will take months or years to recover. This will destroy local economies which will ripple through real estate.

    I believe the greater pending collapse is commercial real estate. I have been saying that for over a month on BP. Storefronts closing and office space being abandoned as people work from home, combined with the accelerated shift to online purchases will spell doom for commercial investments.  

    Residential will be very regional. Some markets will be untouched and others will be destroyed. 

    How this all plays out partly depends on if and when a game changing treatment arrives. Short of that, the "shelter in place" orders cannot really be lifted. Every day does more damage. I hope to be proven wrong.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y

    @Joe Splitrock  I got e mails today from AA and Alaska airlines waiting on Delta LOL.

    My elite status has been extended another year which is super.

    However ALK went on to talk about what they are doing in the cabin.. they are not going to sell middle seats in Coach

    So no plane will go out full.. if your traveling with family and want to rub elbows you can.  It will be interesting to see

    if they raise ticket prices ?  but cant see them doing that in the short term as they try to get folks back in the air.

    On the cruise lines i use  they sent out e mails that Cruising will start May 15th.. and then went into detail about how everyone will have their temp taken each time they board anyone over 100. something will be denied boarding.

    So at least those two hard hit industries are setting the table for a restart..   I would expect the airlines to also take temps.

    Will there be football though ?  you know how packed those stadiums get ..

    I agree though on commercial real estate also hotels etc there will be a lot of changing of ownership's.. but for each one that goes out of business some one will come in and replace them if its a viable location or business.

    On the construction side i know we are going to be looking at the sub trades to compete like the old days instead of whats happened the last 10 years with sub contractor price creep.

    I think with all the service industries letting people go what has been a labor shortage in construction could end up being a flood of labor.. go swing a hammer ?  instead of working in doors..

  • Real Estate Broker · Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Heres the reality. Some markets will get hurt some will will not. No one has an idea what the future will be. The beautiful part about things is that you don't need to predict the future to make money.  Let the data come in and then you manage your risk and scale into things. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2017 · 294 posts · 182 votes
    6y

    This is a wild time to be alive.

    Tomorrow holds opportunities untold. 

    "...mesdames et messieurs, maintenant nous allons faire grand petit voyage par bateau." 

    ("...ladies and Gentlemen, now we are going for a great little boat trip.")

    There’s no earthly way of knowing
    Which direction they are going!
    There’s no knowing where they’re rowing,
    Or which way they river’s flowing!

    I hope every working person and small business that was reasonably conservative up until this hit survives and can thrive on the other side of the tunnel...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jamie Rose:

    This is a wild time to be alive.

    Tomorrow holds opportunities untold. 

    "...mesdames et messieurs, maintenant nous allons faire grand petit voyage par bateau." 

    ("...ladies and Gentlemen, now we are going for a great little boat trip.")

    There’s no earthly way of knowing
    Which direction they are going!
    There’s no knowing where they’re rowing,
    Or which way they river’s flowing!

    I hope every working person and small business that was reasonably conservative up until this hit survives and can thrive on the other side of the tunnel...

    my brother in law fish's in Alasaka every spring early summer.. he can get to anchorage but cant get to the town they go out of..  He has a job and wants to work and makes big money if the fishing is good

  • Sunnyvale , CA · Member since 2017 · 373 posts · 362 votes
    6y

    @Babek Sandhar

    Funny had the same debate with a friend yesterday who invests in Las Vegas. He was heavily bullish about Vegas but just like OP bearish on big city markets. I could not reconcile that logic.

    My views on this are clear. In the last 100 years or more, several crisis have hit the world periodically. These include natural disasters, pandemics, terrorist strikes, economic downturns and despite all these mega metro cities have thrived and gotten twice as strong after every crisis. I won’t say the same about small towns or manufacturing towns that lost jobs. There are many towns all over America which were once thriving but today are deeply run down. I think that pattern repeats. The strong coastal markets get stronger the weak get weaker.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Sam Josh:

    @Babek Sandhar

    Funny had the same debate with a friend yesterday who invests in Las Vegas. He was heavily bullish about Vegas but just like OP bearish on big city markets. I could not reconcile that logic.

    My views on this are clear. In the last 100 years or more, several crisis have hit the world periodically. These include natural disasters, pandemics, terrorist strikes, economic downturns and despite all these mega metro cities have thrived and gotten twice as strong after every crisis. I won’t say the same about small towns or manufacturing towns that lost jobs. There are many towns all over America which were once thriving but today are deeply run down. I think that pattern repeats. The strong coastal markets get stronger the weak get weaker.

    they dont call it the rust belt for nothing :)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    30-60% drop in prime coastal markets? Nah, I don’t think so. Matter of fact, the opposite. Given the massive And unprecedented amount of stimulus government will need to give in the near term, I expect that we will have significant inflation sometime over the next several years. So when happy meal costs approach $10, people sitting on hard real estate assets In prime markets have the best chance to reap huge benefits. Secondary and tertiary markets will probably have large fluctuations in RE values, depending on the resultant economic conditions. 

  • Rental Property Investor · oakville, ontario · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    ..

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    It's all about supply and demand. Some cities have low inventory, especially at this moment.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Babek Sandhar

    Sounds like you struck a nerve with some folks.  I have been wrong for so long it is ridiculous but I don’t see how we can have 15% unemployment, be $24 trillion dollars in debt, at each others throat politically, yet snap your fingers and unleash all of our pent up demand.  I’m not confident these jobs even come back.  And how many trillions of dollars can the country go into debt before people do lose faith?  I keep telling myself that at the end of the day it is an academic question.  If I own real estate that creates good cashflow I am safe.  Plus if we actually do experience a period of hyperinflation from all the money printing we will all wish we had more real estate with big loans.  

    Nothing would make me happier then to see prices in big cities go down, after striping so much from the rest of the country.  The wealth that has been transferred to those places is ridiculous.  But as long as we have an economy based on consumption I don’t see anything stoping those places from getting even richer.  At least the nice areas of those places, from what they tell me the poor parts are hell on earth.

  • Rental Property Investor · oakville, ontario · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    A bold prediction? I would suggest it more of a wild guess. With ranges from 30% to 60% i.e.  a home recently valued at $1,000,000 could decrease $100,000, $300,000, $400,000, well maybe 5 or $600,000. I mean, why not a $604,343 decrease? With that range anyone could guess just about anything financial or probability related -- you've covered over half of possble range of 0 to 100%, what's left? something between almost improbable and zero? No question (in most minds) that even without COVID the majority saw a downturn was coming at some point, so pointing out that you've been saying it for a while now, well yes, havent we all. Forgive me, but it all comes off as a little irresponsible, arrogant and a lot of self grandiosity. 

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