HELP!!! What can I do if borrower is not able to pay back??

HELP!!! What can I do if borrower is not able to pay back??

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes

Hi all, I think I am in some serious trouble now and really need your guys' input!! About a year ago I got connected to a loan broker here in BP who was posting ads looking for private money to fund local flippers- so called gap financing. After a few emails and a face-to-face meeting, I was sold on this idea and started to invest money with him. It was a flat rate loan with my name on the 2nd lien position. Loan was structured for 12mo as stated on the Note, meaning the full amount is due either upon the sales of that project or by the end of 12 months, whichever occurs first. I received a Promissory Note, a Deed of Trust, and a personal Guaranty from the borrower. In the first a few months, the broker sent me monthly updates. Although the project was a bit delayed, he promised me it's looking fantastic and nothing to worry about.

I got quite busy later of the year and stopped following up with him; however, things started to go downhill from here... Earlier this month, I pulled the Note and noticed the payment due date was only a few weeks away but the project was still not listed for sale. I started calling the broker but he's not responding to any of the emails/texts/calls. I felt something was wrong and immediately called the escrow company who gave me the borrower's phone number. I called the borrower directly and was told things were not looking good. His company was mismanaged and lost quite bit of money and also he's stuck with a few projects now. He borrowed most 1st loans from a hard money lender who is going to begin foreclosure process if not paid by Jan 2018. He said he's trying to refinance one of the projects but not sure if he's qualified. He's asking me if I have a lot more money to buy out the 1st loan and I told him no. He said he takes his reputation and integrity seriously and will try to pay me back the principle if we work together, but I just don't know how that would happen if things are falling apart like he described. 

So I guess my question is- what are my options now? I know being on a 2nd position is quite weak but is there something else I can do instead of just waiting? I have a Promissory Note, a Deed of Trust, and a personal Guaranty but not sure what I can do with these. I guess I can take them to the court and go after his personal assets? That might be the last straw but I really hope there is some other solution that could minimize both losses. Any advice is welcome! Thank you BP!

3Reply
163 views

Most Popular Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y

few things..  Gap funding and second position loans are highly highly highly risky.. unless your Very rich and can easily stroke a check to take the first out.. that's number one.

2. in CA if its a balloon payment I am pretty sure ( at least it use to be this way) that you must give a notice in writing of the balloon 60 to 90 days before its due.. if you don't you can't forclose and when you figure out you can't forclose then you give the notice and your 90 days starts.. so you may want to see if the first lender gave his notice ... if not that may have bought you some time.

3. personal gurantee's are WORTHLESS 95% of the time.. in these scenarios remember the borrower probably has little to no money in the deal since he has a first and a second.

4. contact senior lender pronto and see if you can work something out if you think there is equity to protect yourself.. normally there is not... if the project is buggered up and default interest and such is tolling by the time you get in the deal equity is gone.

But do drive by walk property and figure out what you got..

lastly most brokers on BP if they are not working with a major corporation you want to really be careful of some are flat scammers  although it looks like this broker actually did the deal made their fee's and poof gone.

See this reply in the discussion

48 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Ian Walsh  CA is not an attorney state.. you would hire a trustee sales firm to do your foreclosure ( most are owned by attorneys.)  like in your area with attorney firms that have a set fee for a closing.

    west coast attorneys bill by the hour.. if they did these small real estate deals by the hour your fee's would be HUGE>..  

    But an attorney could tell this guy what he is up against all though I think its been laid out pretty well above.. your in second postion either cure the first or walk.. :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Jay Hinrichs He is still in second position. Given we do not have details of the loan, what do you think he is actually getting out of it?

     your guess is as good as mine.... first goes to sale if its a red hot property in a great area probably over bids and he has some overages .. could even be made whole who knows.

    the point is as you said.. there is simply no riskier investment than a gap funder on a build deal.. only way you do that is as a true equity partner so you have some command and control.. and you get half the profit if not more.. LOL not just and interest rate that is a suckers play frankly.

  • Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2017 · 38 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs your point is well taken!  That's one of the largest considerations here.  The OP says the structure was demolished leaving an open field! LoL.

    With HML financing typically being 65% of as-is value, with only a building lot to sell if he takes it back, I see an opportunity to negotiate with the HML. Given your estimate of $600,000 needed to build a home which seems very accurate given the proposed ARV and typical lot values as a percentage of purchase price, there will be a shortfall. Besides which, the HML probably does not want to be a home builder.

    If our OP brings a proposal that makes the HML whole but takes a little time, I'd bet a dollar that a deal can be struck.

    BTW- my point on the litigation is not specific to mortgage discrepancies. I'm commenting in general on Civil Procedure, which can choke any dispute, including small claims out to a year or longer. Nobody, particularly the active HML wants to wait that long when he can easily recover his money sooner by taking a deal.

    I hope this helps!  Holler if you need me.

    Best regards,

    Mark

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    Painful thread Sean. Sorry to read about this. Really hope it works out. Please keep us updated.

    Here folks, is a valuable lesson about why we need to do all of our question-asking (from strangers online, no less)  before sinking $200 large into a risky (2nd Lien!) deal run by a guy you barely know...  

    A wise real-estate mentor of mine once told me about closing on a property:  If you look around the real-estate closing-table and you can't figure out who the patsy is,  it's you. 

  • Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 611 votes
    8y
    Sean Yang What got you in trouble in the first place is you did not seek advice of a lawyer. I think you are making the same mistake again by being cheap and getting advice on BP.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Charles Kao:

    Sean Yang What got you in trouble in the first place is you did not seek advice of a lawyer. I think you are making the same mistake again by being cheap and getting advice on BP.

     other than those of us with a lot of experience in this end of the business said he should never have done it in the first place.. but he is pregnant now.. so options are what they are .. 

  • Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 115 votes
    8y
    Obviously the risks have come true in this deal but I'm just curious if everything went as expected what was your return on the 200k loan for a 2nd position?
  • Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 611 votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs  I completely agree, but going the cheap route again is not going to pull you out of the situation.  You provided great advice, but ultimately a local lawyer is still going to be his best option to pull any of those options through so why waste time and not go there directly.  I don't say this to be rude, but it's hard lesson that needs to be learned the first time, so it's not made again.  I made similar mistake going the cheap route that cost me over 60,000 but the important thing was I didn't let that same mistake happen again.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    Scaffolding on top of & updating what I mentioned above (and re-emphasized elegantly by @Charles Kao):

    If it's one of your first ever real-estate deals, and, it's a long-distance remote deal, and, you're not even at the closing-table,  the patsy is most definitely, most certainly,    YOU.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Charles Kao Thank you for the input. I am currently working with an attorney and he is drafting a demand letter and will also do an asset search of the borrower. But other than that, I don't see how it will change the whole picture- if the borrower has no capital to pay or continue the job, he still won't even pressured by a lawyer... My attorney also suggested doing a pre-judgement writ of attachment on his personal asset if there is any and he's working on that. 

    I came to BP for help not because I wanted to go cheap. I simply value the information here as I believe many folks here may have similar experiences, which might be more valuable than an attorney from the investor perspective. After all, an attorney is trying to make profit (they charge by hours here in CA) and often times they are not 100% in line with the client's interest as I feel.. But again thank you for your input

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Michael G. Ya I agree with you. However, this is not my first real estate deal with this person- I have done another deal with him before and that one went well. That's prob why I didn't pay enough attention to the details, which is a big lesson for sure. This borrower has successfully flipped 45 houses in the past 2 years and who would think they'd screw up on this one... So my advice for other investors here: always do a full due-diligence and if something doesn't smell right, walk away!

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Kevin Martin The expected return was around 15%-30% depending on when the project was finished. It's not a stunning deal but I thought it was okay because this borrower has a good track-record and I've done one deal with him in the past. But believe or not, I have heard many 2nd loans here have an ROI of 15% or less. So apparently some people are willing to take the risk for this kind of return.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Ian Walsh  Yea I spoke with more than one attorneys actually, but just like any professionals, not all attorneys are equal, and so are the advice they gave- meaning there is no single right answer of what's the best way to do. Real estate loans are more complicated than many people think and there are many ways to work with this- but it's still the client our-self who should be making the final decision. Without enough background knowledge, I feel like I am just pouring endless money and may or may not even collect anything. Attorneys don't really care at that point because they charge fees by hours and they are always the winner. 

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs Thank you for your input and I always enjoy reading your comments. So what's the difference between a foreclosure started by the 1st lender and 2nd lender? I talked to some attorney and they suggest I send notice of default and start foreclosure as soon as I can, but isn't that something the 1st lender will do anyways? (and as far as I know they already started the process) So what's my benefit of starting another foreclosure process? Thank you

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Sean Yang:

    @Jay Hinrichs Thank you for your input and I always enjoy reading your comments. So what's the difference between a foreclosure started by the 1st lender and 2nd lender? I talked to some attorney and they suggest I send notice of default and start foreclosure as soon as I can, but isn't that something the 1st lender will do anyways? (and as far as I know they already started the process) So what's my benefit of starting another foreclosure process? Thank you

    Sometimes it's to do with timing. Is now the best time of the year to bring it to (bargain-hunters-foreclosure) market? Jay earlier made the point that you (in second position) would only want to force the issue "if you think there is equity to protect yourself.. normally there is not...". Is there?

  • Realtor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 408 posts · 361 votes
    8y

    Sorry to hear of all this. Interestingly enough, I actually inquired about investing in something similar. Rehab loan, 2nd lien, returns too good to be true. 

    How do liens work and why is a 2nd position practically worthless? Or is it?

    P.S. out him OP. Nobody who does this deserves to be protected.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ernesto Hernandez:

    Sorry to hear of all this. Interestingly enough, I actually inquired about investing in something similar. Rehab loan, 2nd lien, returns too good to be true. 

    How do liens work and why is a 2nd position practically worthless? Or is it?

    P.S. out him OP. Nobody who does this deserves to be protected.

    Nobody who does what? 

    This was a risky deal and here we are a year later and OP still doesn't understand lien priority.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Corona, CA · Member since 2017 · 99 posts · 42 votes
    8y
    What are all the numbers, and what is the status of the house (progress, etc.)?
  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Ernesto Hernandez    Loans have different priorities. 

    A typical "Top-Priority" Loan, such as a conventional bank mortgage, and all 1st Lien Loans, are in the "1st" position and thus are the 1st to be repaid in the event of a bankruptcy/default and a subsequent deed transfer/foreclosure.

    All other "Subordinate" loans, "Junior Loans" or "2nd Lien", or "2nd / 3rd Tier" loans come next in line for repayment after a default / foreclosure IF (and this is always a really big "IF")  there happens to be anything left after all fees are paid and the 1st lien-holders are fully reimbursed.

    This is what makes 2nd Lien loans much riskier. Usually, they pay a much higher rate of interest as a result. 

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Sean Yang I am very sorry this happened to you. I had a very similar thing happened to me. In spring of 2016 I partnered with someone who done many flips in Phoenix. I was to provide the gap funding. Because he was an experienced flipper, and I was relatively new at investing in real estate, I didn't do as much of my own due diligence in analyzing the deal and estimating the ARV for myself.

    I partnered with him on two deals at relatively the same time for a total of $250,000. After eight months and no offers (and only a few showings) I asked him what his plan was on selling these properties. He said that he didn’t know what else he could do besides to lower the price. At this point I met with a hard money lender that had funded a few of my other deals and I asked for advice from him. He told me to arrange a meeting with the investor, him (the hard money lender) and I together.  I called my title company so that the title lady that I work with could create some deeds in leiu. 

    At the meeting my hard money lender asked the borrower/flipper if there was any profit left for him in these deals. He said no. So the hard money lender said to him that if there was no money left in it for him that he should just sign over the properties to me and he would pay off the original hard money loan and create a new loan for me. As soon as he signed over the properties I took him to my title lady who then recorded them.

    As soon as I took control of the properties, I had my team work hard to fix up and sell the properties.  I ended up losing about $70,000 between the two properties. Hard lesson learned. But rather than go the legal route which could have taken months or longer and cost thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees all the while the hard money lender is eating up more of the profit, I decided to do it this way and save myself time and avoid frustrating legal proceedings and just take my losses and move on. 

    I talked with a business partner that I usually team up with (not the same guy as above) and he consoled me by telling me we’ll make it up on the next one.  Fortunately, there was one deal that we did last year that made up for the majority of my losses. So in my opinion you learn from your mistakes and then move forward.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @Shiloh Lundahl Thank you so much for sharing your experience! Things like this really hurt new investors and I've not been looking for any deals since then... You did great by taking over the properties and I am glad that you recouped the majority of your losses. From a positive perspective, the lessons we learned are priceless and will sure save us more money later on. Good luck in your future career in real estate!

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.