Protecting Lines of Credit (LOC) and Arbitrage to Offset Interest

Protecting Lines of Credit (LOC) and Arbitrage to Offset Interest

Investor · Member since 2018 · 260 posts · 74 votes

Hello Friends!

One of our goals right now is to increase our liquidity so that we can take advantage of any opportunities that arise in this changing market, especially in the case that traditional financing becomes unavailable or the terms become (more) unattractive.

One of these methods is to get lines of credit, which we're doing through HELOCs as well as an unsecured business line of credit. 

We don't need the funds yet since we haven't found any opportunities (which could be a whole different post). However, we've heard that lines of credit were closed without warning by lenders in 2008 if they weren't already drawn out.

One strategy we've heard from people is to draw on the lines of credit now, even though the funds are not needed. However, we obviously don't want to pay a ~6% interest rate on money we're not using.

Some people have said there are ways to arbitrage this debt with short term methods that will either yield a small profit, or simply break even. An example might include hard money lending.

However, it's a bit of a Catch 22. Because it's an uncertain market right now, with an even more uncertain future, we don't want to make any risky investments or do hard money lending, since it's exactly the failure of these types of projects that will potentially create buying opportunities for us in the future. (In other words, if we're betting that these projects might fail, we certainly don't want to invest in them now!)

Two resulting questions:

1. Do you think there is a likely probability that the lines of credit will be closed by the banks if they are not drawn out? (And why?)

2. Can you think of any low risk arbitrage ideas to break even on the interest expense if we were to draw on the lines of credit now, prior to having a buying opportunity in place?

Thank you!

Kim

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Beth JohnsonPro Member
Lender · Renton, WA · Member since 2018 · 227 posts · 216 votes
4y

@Kim Hopkins

My husband and I are doing the same thing. We took our HELOC and use it to lend out on private money loans at very low loan to value with 12% return to cover our heloc payment and all the utilities on our second home. It even covers our flights there twice a month and then some. Our loans are typically 8-12 months.

To learn more about how to safely invest in private money loans individually, since most hard money debt fund will have a long lock up period, check out my recently published book by BiggerPockets called Lend to Live: Earn Hassle-free Passive Income in Real Estate with Private Money Lending. My co-author and I cover all the areas you'd need to know to find and fund your first loan. https://store.biggerpockets.com/products/lend-to-live

Let me know if you have more questions that I can help with!

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  • Marty JohnstonPro Member
    Lender · Wauwatosa, WI · Member since 2016 · 571 posts · 204 votes
    4y

    Following this thread, very interested as well. I too utilize HELOC's to invest passively, one with a trusted investor (developer) in FL, another avenue is through lending platforms such as Groundfloor, or other local options like Milwaukee Hard Money (local to me), etc. Justin Donald refers to a similar method in his book "The Lifestyle Investor" where he invests in life insurance, takes a loan against it, and reinvests it elsewhere, earning twice on his money. The net effect is a small return with the life insurance company while also re-leveraging those funds in another asset. I feel like the principal is similar here, and of course this is a real estate investing forum, but it would be interested to see what others suggest in response to your #2!

    Thanks for the great post.

  • Investor · Broward County, FL · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 938 votes
    4y

    My HELOC had been closed a few weeks before I was closing on a new property and was trying to draw the money out of it. But that was a few years ago when many banks where starting to close their HELOC business.

    Now with the raising interest rates, I see more banks reentering the HELOC business, so unless your personal situation changes drastically (loss of employement, loss of credit rating, ...) I would not be too worried about a line being closed.

    Drawing the money out the HELOC to make sure it is there when you need it is a good option, but as you mentioned you want to park that money in something that will give you some money back to avoid paying interest on idling money.

    There are multiple opportunities to make your money work short term, some are very secured, some are way more riskier (either regarding the principal value or regarding when the money will be available).

    You can use bank Certificates of Deposit with duration from a month to a few years. Rates are in the 0.25 to 3%, so you will have a negative arbitrage with your HELOC.

    You can find some hard money lending funds that will give you a 6% return but you will need to give them 2 to 3 months advanced notice to withdraw funds.

    You can find some hard money loans giving you 10% return but your money will be locked for period as short as 9 month, some up to 2 years.

    You can put your money into crypto stable coins with a 6 to 7% return, with a few days availability.

  • Investor · Member since 2018 · 260 posts · 74 votes
    4y

    @Mike S.

    Thanks for your thoughts on the limited risk of leaving the HELOC and LOC "in the bank". That's comforting.

    With regards to the options for arbitrage, as you mentioned the CD is quite negative, so I think I would table that one. (The LOC and HELOC are sizeable so the interest is very significant).

    With regards to the hard money lending and crypto, these are the exact areas of the market that I think could fail in the near future. If we invest in them with leveraged cash, and they go down, we go right down with them. Am I missing something? 

  • Investor · Broward County, FL · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 938 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kim Hopkins:

    @Mike S.

    Thanks for your thoughts on the limited risk of leaving the HELOC and LOC "in the bank". That's comforting.

    With regards to the options for arbitrage, as you mentioned the CD is quite negative, so I think I would table that one. (The LOC and HELOC are sizeable so the interest is very significant).

    With regards to the hard money lending and crypto, these are the exact areas of the market that I think could fail in the near future. If we invest in them with leveraged cash, and they go down, we go right down with them. Am I missing something? 


    No, you are right, you need to assess your risk appetite.
    I personally have hard money loans and crypto, but it is a small part of my asset and while losing them will set me back, it won't be a catastrophic change in my lifestyle.
  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    MYGA or structured notes but you need a good financial advisor to find a good note.

  • Investor · Member since 2018 · 260 posts · 74 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Raj Sing:

    MYGA or structured notes but you need a good financial advisor to find a good note.


     Those are short term?

  • Investor · Union County, NJ · Member since 2022 · 92 posts · 51 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Marty Johnston:

    Following this thread, very interested as well. I too utilize HELOC's to invest passively, one with a trusted investor (developer) in FL, another avenue is through lending platforms such as Groundfloor, or other local options like Milwaukee Hard Money (local to me), etc. Justin Donald refers to a similar method in his book "The Lifestyle Investor" where he invests in life insurance, takes a loan against it, and reinvests it elsewhere, earning twice on his money. The net effect is a small return with the life insurance company while also re-leveraging those funds in another asset. I feel like the principal is similar here, and of course this is a real estate investing forum, but it would be interested to see what others suggest in response to your #2!

    Thanks for the great post.

    Can also read Cash is King for more one PWL approach. Very interesting, if you're able to find it sufficiently and quickly enough to get the cash value up to a level that's useful for borrowing.
  • Beth JohnsonPro Member
    Lender · Renton, WA · Member since 2018 · 227 posts · 216 votes
    4y

    @Kim Hopkins

    My husband and I are doing the same thing. We took our HELOC and use it to lend out on private money loans at very low loan to value with 12% return to cover our heloc payment and all the utilities on our second home. It even covers our flights there twice a month and then some. Our loans are typically 8-12 months.

    To learn more about how to safely invest in private money loans individually, since most hard money debt fund will have a long lock up period, check out my recently published book by BiggerPockets called Lend to Live: Earn Hassle-free Passive Income in Real Estate with Private Money Lending. My co-author and I cover all the areas you'd need to know to find and fund your first loan. https://store.biggerpockets.com/products/lend-to-live

    Let me know if you have more questions that I can help with!

  • Investor · Member since 2018 · 260 posts · 74 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Beth Johnson:

    @Kim Hopkins

    My husband and I are doing the same thing. We took our HELOC and use it to lend out on private money loans at very low loan to value with 12% return to cover our heloc payment and all the utilities on our second home. It even covers our flights there twice a month and then some. Our loans are typically 8-12 months.

    To learn more about how to safely invest in private money loans individually, since most hard money debt fund will have a long lock up period, check out my recently published book by BiggerPockets called Lend to Live: Earn Hassle-free Passive Income in Real Estate with Private Money Lending. My co-author and I cover all the areas you'd need to know to find and fund your first loan. https://store.biggerpockets.com/products/lend-to-live

    Let me know if you have more questions that I can help with!


     Yes very interested in this idea! Thank you!

  • Investor · Member since 2018 · 260 posts · 74 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kim Hopkins:
    Quote from @Beth Johnson:

    @Kim Hopkins

    My husband and I are doing the same thing. We took our HELOC and use it to lend out on private money loans at very low loan to value with 12% return to cover our heloc payment and all the utilities on our second home. It even covers our flights there twice a month and then some. Our loans are typically 8-12 months.

    To learn more about how to safely invest in private money loans individually, since most hard money debt fund will have a long lock up period, check out my recently published book by BiggerPockets called Lend to Live: Earn Hassle-free Passive Income in Real Estate with Private Money Lending. My co-author and I cover all the areas you'd need to know to find and fund your first loan. https://store.biggerpockets.com/products/lend-to-live

    Let me know if you have more questions that I can help with!


     Yes very interested in this idea! Thank you!


     Do you give actual examples of how to find people to loan to?

  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    I had a $750000 HELOC closed in 2010 though there was 80% equity in the subject. Arbitrary and without notice. As MANY lenders have pulled out of doing HELOCS the servicers looking at your valuation, backyard, and credit with tools that did not exist in 2010. HELOC lenders can close millions of accounts if markets get 1% worse.

    HELOC is a temporary tool with max rates 18 or 20 if you draw out. Payment based on 15 year so taking the cash and not using it does not appear to be a long term plan. Some HELOCS are fixed in the 7-8 range. If you need the funds to buy something this month, draw it now. Then double up on your income stream to pay it off in a year.

    Hard money is short term due in 18 months give or take and at 13-15 %. Bad plan if you just take it to place in a checking account for the loss.

    Becoming a private money lender sounds hunky dory until you have to foreclose with a muscle guy or tangle with the SEC. Licensing and proving you closed qualified loans is not as easy as a lemonade stand. 

    Investing in crypto, tried to create NFT's but all at loss so far... 

    Nothing is easy money.

  • Beth JohnsonPro Member
    Lender · Renton, WA · Member since 2018 · 227 posts · 216 votes
    4y

    @Kim Hopkins

    Yes! It's broken out into six steps known as the CPR Lending System with a pre-step (Calculate and Evaluate) to help you define your own lending criteria and personal/financial goals before diving head first. Step 1 is Connect, meaning how to connect with the right individuals and professionals to start your journey. Where to look for borrower prospects, where not to look, who should be on your private lending virtual team and how they might be of service to you, etc.

    Here's a BiggerPockets main blog my co-author wrote that explains it in high level. https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/find-and-fund-private-money-loans

  • Beth JohnsonPro Member
    Lender · Renton, WA · Member since 2018 · 227 posts · 216 votes
    4y

    @Caroline Gerardo

    Private lending law is much more related in CA than other states as is the foreclosure process much lengthier and supportive of consumer protection at all costs. But with the right virtual team and safe equity buffers in states that are private lender friendly, it can be a relatively smooth process with a positive outcome.

    Here's something I wrote this summer for BP blog about one of my client's experience earlier this year:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/loans-gone-wild-turning-a-loan-into-a-flip

    Most of the time, these defaults can be worked out prior to foreclosure but you are absolutely correct that when it gets to this "nuclear option" as my co-author calls it, it can be time consuming. Still, if done correctly, it can yield some tremendous returns.

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Is it possible in your market to use the LOC / HELOC to acquire a decent investment property outright in cash? E g your LOC's add up to $200,000 and a decent investment property is $150,000… if so then to me you can always pull that money back out via refi, or via a sale… this might be wayyy to simple as I didn't look at where you are from but even so a version of it could be possible even if you have to do REI out of state. The more I begin to understand the flow of money the more I realize it is still money even if created by debt, and it is relatively easy to get access to ever increasing amounts of it if secured by assets.

  • Insurance Agent · all 50 states · Member since 2022 · 184 posts · 122 votes
    4y

    I have a few clients that use a combination of strategies. With their HELOC they use a strategy called a Modified Endowment Contract. This is a Single Premium cash value life insurance product usually utilizes an Indexed Universal Life policy.

    They will then Pull the cash value out of the policy (approximately 90% actual value)  The policy will generate a guaranteed positive return of 2-4% with the money pulled out, that includes paying the interest for the loan against the cash value of the policy)  

    Then the client can take the money and invest it into other shorter term investment strategies such as private placements, hard money lending, or other such strategies.  

    (I am not a financial manager so I cannot suggest what or where to place your money, I am only an insurance agent and relaying what some of my clients currently do and find successful for them)

  • Investor · Fairfax, VA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 803 votes
    3y

    If your HELOC is dormant then just pull a little bit of out, say like $1,000 dollars. This way its less likely to be closed, but I haven't heard of anyone losing their Heloc. Seems like there is a lot of companies offering it.


  • Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marty Johnston:

    Following this thread, very interested as well. I too utilize HELOC's to invest passively, one with a trusted investor (developer) in FL, another avenue is through lending platforms such as Groundfloor, or other local options like Milwaukee Hard Money (local to me), etc. Justin Donald refers to a similar method in his book "The Lifestyle Investor" where he invests in life insurance, takes a loan against it, and reinvests it elsewhere, earning twice on his money. The net effect is a small return with the life insurance company while also re-leveraging those funds in another asset. I feel like the principal is similar here, and of course this is a real estate investing forum, but it would be interested to see what others suggest in response to your #2!

    Thanks for the great post.


     I utilized this as well as lines of residential/commercial notes and infinite banking. You've gotta keep all options available for the deals coming soon. 

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