Due On Sale Being Called!!

Due On Sale Being Called!!

Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 420 posts · 388 votes

I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

THE END. 

Let me know what you would have done differently?!



6Reply
317 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 107 posts · 89 votes
1y

Too bad this guy deleted his account. If we bite off people’s heads when they admit disaster, it suppresses legitimate issues with these techniques.

See this reply in the discussion

43 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Dan Deppen:

    I could be misunderstanding how this deal was structured, but wouldn't the seller who is on the underlying mortgage have an incentive not to let it go into foreclosure since their credit is at stake?

    .
    In a Wrap, Subject To, etc the ownership has changed. The seller no longer owns the property. He would be paying off a loan on a property he no  longer owns. Most sellers probably would not have sold on creative financing if they had a way to get rid of the mortgage when they sold.

    So, pay off $200,000 (or whatever) on a property you no longer own to save your credit? Not likely, even if you could. 

    Now, if the seller was free & clear (no mortgage) when he sold, the seller could enact whatever remedy was provided for in the Deed of Trust, if he was savvy enough to even do a Deed of Trust. He could foreclose and recover the property. 

    But, the OP states it was a Wrap, so there must have been an existing mortgage.

  • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Ken M.:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    I would never give the party on the opposite end of the transaction POA over the property, or my social, DOB etc. Who would do that?

    People doing crazy stuff lately.

    I hate to say it but it's starting to feel a bit like 2007, with sub2 being the new subprime mortgage...

    It's too small of a percentage of loans for that to be where the bottom falls out. And yes that poster has a trail of his own. @Russell Brazil He closed his account, cause he needs to eat a lot of crow. 


     who was it?

    I would have thought as a mod, you'd have access to that information. ?
    Maybe he was actually made a "non-person". ;-)

     Clearly, he doesn't cause you're the same subto guy that's been peddling the forum for the last couple of years. "Teaching" people how to do subto for $1500/mo or something like that. Perhaps longer time you've been here, I do not know. Removed and come back, or of the sort.



    @Chris Seveney Poster's name was Whit B.

    .
    @V.G Jason:  You know what, there is only one guy in America that teaches physics, there is only one guy in America that is an auto mechanic and there is only one guy in America that understands Creative Financing and warns people about it. So, clearly I'm that one guy. ;-)  Not.

    I bet you are a whale of fun at funerals.

    You need to get some perspective buddy, unless you are trying to hide something. In my little part of the world, we call that "blame shifting". When someone becomes obsessed with something they need to hide by falsely pointing at others. I don't even know if I'd like the guy.

    So, tells us, what is it that this phantom person did to cause you such delusionary behaviour?
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Ken M.:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    I would never give the party on the opposite end of the transaction POA over the property, or my social, DOB etc. Who would do that?

    People doing crazy stuff lately.

    I hate to say it but it's starting to feel a bit like 2007, with sub2 being the new subprime mortgage...

    It's too small of a percentage of loans for that to be where the bottom falls out. And yes that poster has a trail of his own. @Russell Brazil He closed his account, cause he needs to eat a lot of crow. 


     who was it?

    I would have thought as a mod, you'd have access to that information. ?
    Maybe he was actually made a "non-person". ;-)

     Clearly, he doesn't cause you're the same subto guy that's been peddling the forum for the last couple of years. "Teaching" people how to do subto for $1500/mo or something like that. Perhaps longer time you've been here, I do not know. Removed and come back, or of the sort.



    @Chris Seveney Poster's name was Whit B.


    VG  it was my understanding that sub to guys charged 15k .. thats what one BP member told me at the time.. so its hearsay how much they actually wanted for their expertise.. And dont know about Ken.. but his partner for sure was very versed in sub to.. the information was accurate as we both kind of played in the northwest sandbox . and before sub to foreclosure rescues / rent backs became illegal in about 08 I personally did a few hundred of them.  But my SOP was to flip.. I only bought sub to if there was enough equity day one to either flip with no work or there was margin to do a rehab and then sell.. I would never do sub to for the purpose of holding long term rentals  ( at least personally) . So we retired the sellers loan within 12 to 18 months. Plus we had the money to pay one off if it got called and we did have a few get called .. There is a ton of risk for the seller as we know in these deals and there are bad actors in these deals as well.. ran into many of them buy sub to never pay of the mortgage rip the rents and down the road..some off those folks got criminally charged and got prison time.. Not saying anyone on BP would do that of course but you know real estate is full of shysters and plain old criminals. :)
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Ken M.:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    I would never give the party on the opposite end of the transaction POA over the property, or my social, DOB etc. Who would do that?

    People doing crazy stuff lately.

    I hate to say it but it's starting to feel a bit like 2007, with sub2 being the new subprime mortgage...

    It's too small of a percentage of loans for that to be where the bottom falls out. And yes that poster has a trail of his own. @Russell Brazil He closed his account, cause he needs to eat a lot of crow. 


     who was it?

    I would have thought as a mod, you'd have access to that information. ?
    Maybe he was actually made a "non-person". ;-)

     Clearly, he doesn't cause you're the same subto guy that's been peddling the forum for the last couple of years. "Teaching" people how to do subto for $1500/mo or something like that. Perhaps longer time you've been here, I do not know. Removed and come back, or of the sort.



    @Chris Seveney Poster's name was Whit B.


    VG  it was my understanding that sub to guys charged 15k .. thats what one BP member told me at the time.. so its hearsay how much they actually wanted for their expertise.. And dont know about Ken.. but his partner for sure was very versed in sub to.. the information was accurate as we both kind of played in the northwest sandbox . and before sub to foreclosure rescues / rent backs became illegal in about 08 I personally did a few hundred of them.  But my SOP was to flip.. I only bought sub to if there was enough equity day one to either flip with no work or there was margin to do a rehab and then sell.. I would never do sub to for the purpose of holding long term rentals  ( at least personally) . So we retired the sellers loan within 12 to 18 months. Plus we had the money to pay one off if it got called and we did have a few get called .. There is a ton of risk for the seller as we know in these deals and there are bad actors in these deals as well.. ran into many of them buy sub to never pay of the mortgage rip the rents and down the road..some off those folks got criminally charged and got prison time.. Not saying anyone on BP would do that of course but you know real estate is full of shysters and plain old criminals. :)
    Very possibly it's $15k, I honestly don't know. I just remember some guy telling he's paying 1500/mo to learn subto from some guys on this forum. My details may be off, but my understanding is correct. 

    I didn't respond to the guy, but my thoughts are when you engage in nonsensical behavior don't expect nothing but nonsensical outcomes.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Adam Michael Andrews:

    Too bad this guy deleted his account. If we bite off people’s heads when they admit disaster, it suppresses legitimate issues with these techniques.

    Just for context there is a lot of history with the OP and some of us on here going back years (like the thread I linked to above from about a year ago and several others if you use the search function with his name) with him minimizing the risks of how he was structuring these transactions and some of us being cautionary, warning him that exactly what happened here could happen, which made him defensive and dismissive. So that’s the full context just fyi.  
  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Steve K.:
    Quote from @Adam Michael Andrews:

    Too bad this guy deleted his account. If we bite off people’s heads when they admit disaster, it suppresses legitimate issues with these techniques.

    Just for context there is a lot of history with the OP and some of us on here going back years (like the thread I linked to above from about a year ago and several others if you use the search function with his name) with him minimizing the risks of how he was structuring these transactions and some of us being cautionary, warning him that exactly what happened here could happen, which made him defensive and dismissive. So that’s the full context just fyi.  
    Like this thread: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1139443-due-...
  • New to Real Estate · Delaware county pa · Member since 2024 · 5 posts · 2 votes
    1y

    He didn't even do an assumption here...with an assumption the lender knows the property is being conveyed and the new buyer is assuming the existing mortgage which is a lot less risky for both the buyer and the seller. I have heard that it is hard to actually assume an existing mortgage though...anyone have experience with that? 

    And there is definitely ways to structure a sub to deal to protect yourself a little better as a buyer but the problem is and will always be that the lender isnt in the loop with this and can call the loan at any point which puts a lot of risk on the sellers willing to do this method and the buyers who are investing money into these deals.

  • T. Alan CeshkerPro Member
    Attorney · 3409 Executive Center Drive Ste 110 Austin, Texas 78731 · Member since 2020 · 99 posts · 92 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

    Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

    No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

    The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

    Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

    They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

    I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

    I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

    Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

    THE END. 

    Let me know what you would have done differently?!




    You are correct re the POA. Actually, to allow access it is an authorization. We use the POA to allow for signing escrow refunds and claim checks.

    A couple other notes.  You also need to change all contact information to you - all email, phone, address.  Another thing is the insurance is sent to the bank from your insurance provider and the seller should never be needed as long as the documentation has been completed correctly.

    This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  A law degree does not mean you know anything re wraps.

    If worse comes to worse, you can stop the foreclosure with legal action - it costs some but you will not lose your equity.

    I would not throw the baby out with the bath water re doing wraps and I do hope all works out for you.

    Reach out if you need a referral to a good AZ attorney to help

    Be careful out there guys

    Alan 

  • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @T. Alan Ceshker:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

    Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

    No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

    The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

    Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

    They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

    I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

    I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

    Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

    THE END. 

    Let me know what you would have done differently?!




    You are correct re the POA. Actually, to allow access it is an authorization. We use the POA to allow for signing escrow refunds and claim checks.

    A couple other notes.  You also need to change all contact information to you - all email, phone, address.  Another thing is the insurance is sent to the bank from your insurance provider and the seller should never be needed as long as the documentation has been completed correctly.

    This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  A law degree does not mean you know anything re wraps.

    If worse comes to worse, you can stop the foreclosure with legal action - it costs some but you will not lose your equity.

    I would not throw the baby out with the bath water re doing wraps and I do hope all works out for you.

    Reach out if you need a referral to a good AZ attorney to help

    Be careful out there guys

    Alan 

    Not to be too blunt, but you are handing bullets to a six year old with a gun. He obviously will only get himself into more trouble because he now knows 1% more than he did, but not nearly enough to keep out of trouble. And, in my opinion, more importantly, the lurkers who never comment, now believe they have the "golden key" of information.

    As you already know, there is so much more to this, in order to stay out of trouble over the long term. 

    He believes he can find all that he needs to know on the internet. Which of course he can. You can find everything you need to know in a grocery store to make 

    Pumpkin spice loaf with almond praline dessert, too. But that doesn't mean you know the right ingredients or can assemble it without disaster. And it might not look very tempting when put together.

    This part is for anyone reading this who never comments:

    My humble advice to anyone attempting to do creative finance is:

    Creative finance is for experienced investors who have access to capital if everything goes wrong.

    1. Learn the laws
    2. Don't use a contract "off the internet", laws vary by state and are also regulated on a federal level
    3. Learn the financing techniques correctly
    4. Don’t skip parts of the process
    5. Don’t ever do a “kitchen table” closing
    6. Use the proper deed
    7. An attorney can help you with the legal work, but the rest you are on your own
    8. Your guru will not bail you out
    9. “Investing” in someone else’s deal by providing a small 2nd loan so the “investor” can pay for “cash to the seller” and for “closing costs” so he can do the deal is a very bad plan
    10. Know what problems can arise
    11. Learn the responses and solutions to problems before they are needed
    12. Know everything there is to know about Title and what that means
    13. Know who a "protected class" individual is
    14. Learn the "back doors"
    15. Learn human nature
    16. Understand timelines
    17. Understand regulation enforcement (some of these "mistakes" have a 10 year statue of limitations ( they can charge you 10 years AFTER you do the transaction) and carry hefty fines and possible imprisonment
    18. The court doesn't accept "I didn't know" for an answer"
    19. Know that the source of the lead plays a serious role in some states and federally
    20. Know how much of a "profit" pushes the boundaries to invite an investigation
    21. You can be sued by the seller if you don’t do things correctly
    22. You are automatically at fault if an investigator or attorney or regulator gets involved. You have to prove you did everything right and then because of “empathy” for the poor snook who “fell into you schemes” you may lose anyway.
    23. This is a legally binding transaction that will be treated that way by the law. There are regulations
    24. I could go on, but if you learn this much, and apply it appropriately, you will cut down your sorrows and risk, considerably.

    And yes, there is much more. You can learn these things over time.

    • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ken M.:
      Quote from @T. Alan Ceshker:
      Quote from @Account Closed:

      I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

      Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

      No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

      The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

      Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

      They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

      I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

      I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

      Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

      THE END. 

      Let me know what you would have done differently?!




      You are correct re the POA. Actually, to allow access it is an authorization. We use the POA to allow for signing escrow refunds and claim checks.

      A couple other notes.  You also need to change all contact information to you - all email, phone, address.  Another thing is the insurance is sent to the bank from your insurance provider and the seller should never be needed as long as the documentation has been completed correctly.

      This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  A law degree does not mean you know anything re wraps.

      If worse comes to worse, you can stop the foreclosure with legal action - it costs some but you will not lose your equity.

      I would not throw the baby out with the bath water re doing wraps and I do hope all works out for you.

      Reach out if you need a referral to a good AZ attorney to help

      Be careful out there guys

      Alan 

      Not to be too blunt, but you are handing bullets to a six year old with a gun. He obviously will only get himself into more trouble because he now knows 1% more than he did, but not nearly enough to keep out of trouble. And, in my opinion, more importantly, the lurkers who never comment, now believe they have the "golden key" of information.

      As you already know, there is so much more to this, in order to stay out of trouble over the long term. 

      He believes he can find all that he needs to know on the internet. Which of course he can. You can find everything you need to know in a grocery store to make 

      Pumpkin spice loaf with almond praline dessert, too. But that doesn't mean you know the right ingredients or can assemble it without disaster. And it might not look very tempting when put together.

      This part is for anyone reading this who never comments:

      My humble advice to anyone attempting to do creative finance is:

      Creative finance is for experienced investors who have access to capital if everything goes wrong.

      1. Learn the laws
      2. Don't use a contract "off the internet", laws vary by state and are also regulated on a federal level
      3. Learn the financing techniques correctly
      4. Don’t skip parts of the process
      5. Don’t ever do a “kitchen table” closing
      6. Use the proper deed
      7. An attorney can help you with the legal work, but the rest you are on your own
      8. Your guru will not bail you out
      9. “Investing” in someone else’s deal by providing a small 2nd loan so the “investor” can pay for “cash to the seller” and for “closing costs” so he can do the deal is a very bad plan
      10. Know what problems can arise
      11. Learn the responses and solutions to problems before they are needed
      12. Know everything there is to know about Title and what that means
      13. Know who a "protected class" individual is
      14. Learn the "back doors"
      15. Learn human nature
      16. Understand timelines
      17. Understand regulation enforcement (some of these "mistakes" have a 10 year statue of limitations ( they can charge you 10 years AFTER you do the transaction) and carry hefty fines and possible imprisonment
      18. The court doesn't accept "I didn't know" for an answer"
      19. Know that the source of the lead plays a serious role in some states and federally
      20. Know how much of a "profit" pushes the boundaries to invite an investigation
      21. You can be sued by the seller if you don’t do things correctly
      22. You are automatically at fault if an investigator or attorney or regulator gets involved. You have to prove you did everything right and then because of “empathy” for the poor snook who “fell into you schemes” you may lose anyway.
      23. This is a legally binding transaction that will be treated that way by the law. There are regulations
      24. I could go on, but if you learn this much, and apply it appropriately, you will cut down your sorrows and risk, considerably.

      And yes, there is much more. You can learn these things over time.

      Any update on this guy?
  • T. Alan CeshkerPro Member
    Attorney · 3409 Executive Center Drive Ste 110 Austin, Texas 78731 · Member since 2020 · 99 posts · 92 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Ken M.:
    Quote from @T. Alan Ceshker:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

    Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

    No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

    The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

    Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

    They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

    I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

    I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

    Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

    THE END. 

    Let me know what you would have done differently?!




    You are correct re the POA. Actually, to allow access it is an authorization. We use the POA to allow for signing escrow refunds and claim checks.

    A couple other notes.  You also need to change all contact information to you - all email, phone, address.  Another thing is the insurance is sent to the bank from your insurance provider and the seller should never be needed as long as the documentation has been completed correctly.

    This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  A law degree does not mean you know anything re wraps.

    If worse comes to worse, you can stop the foreclosure with legal action - it costs some but you will not lose your equity.

    I would not throw the baby out with the bath water re doing wraps and I do hope all works out for you.

    Reach out if you need a referral to a good AZ attorney to help

    Be careful out there guys

    Alan 

    Not to be too blunt, but you are handing bullets to a six year old with a gun. He obviously will only get himself into more trouble because he now knows 1% more than he did, but not nearly enough to keep out of trouble. And, in my opinion, more importantly, the lurkers who never comment, now believe they have the "golden key" of information.

    As you already know, there is so much more to this, in order to stay out of trouble over the long term. 

    He believes he can find all that he needs to know on the internet. Which of course he can. You can find everything you need to know in a grocery store to make 

    Pumpkin spice loaf with almond praline dessert, too. But that doesn't mean you know the right ingredients or can assemble it without disaster. And it might not look very tempting when put together.

    This part is for anyone reading this who never comments:

    My humble advice to anyone attempting to do creative finance is:

    Creative finance is for experienced investors who have access to capital if everything goes wrong.

    1. Learn the laws
    2. Don't use a contract "off the internet", laws vary by state and are also regulated on a federal level
    3. Learn the financing techniques correctly
    4. Don’t skip parts of the process
    5. Don’t ever do a “kitchen table” closing
    6. Use the proper deed
    7. An attorney can help you with the legal work, but the rest you are on your own
    8. Your guru will not bail you out
    9. “Investing” in someone else’s deal by providing a small 2nd loan so the “investor” can pay for “cash to the seller” and for “closing costs” so he can do the deal is a very bad plan
    10. Know what problems can arise
    11. Learn the responses and solutions to problems before they are needed
    12. Know everything there is to know about Title and what that means
    13. Know who a "protected class" individual is
    14. Learn the "back doors"
    15. Learn human nature
    16. Understand timelines
    17. Understand regulation enforcement (some of these "mistakes" have a 10 year statue of limitations ( they can charge you 10 years AFTER you do the transaction) and carry hefty fines and possible imprisonment
    18. The court doesn't accept "I didn't know" for an answer"
    19. Know that the source of the lead plays a serious role in some states and federally
    20. Know how much of a "profit" pushes the boundaries to invite an investigation
    21. You can be sued by the seller if you don’t do things correctly
    22. You are automatically at fault if an investigator or attorney or regulator gets involved. You have to prove you did everything right and then because of “empathy” for the poor snook who “fell into you schemes” you may lose anyway.
    23. This is a legally binding transaction that will be treated that way by the law. There are regulations
    24. I could go on, but if you learn this much, and apply it appropriately, you will cut down your sorrows and risk considerably.

    And yes, there is much more. You can learn these things over time.

    Yes -- Nobody should try this unless all aspects are managed as needed.  I really can say that everything needs to be perfectly handled without any room for error.

    However, you do not need to go and study all aspects of Dodd/Frank, Safe Act, Senate Bill 43, the Property Code, the Finance Code, insurance law and all case law regarding wraps.  You can rely on the experts to assist you.  You can also partner with veteran investors and learn.  You just need the knowledge or rely on those with the knowledge - proven knowledge.

    Thus, my comment of:  This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  You must also vet the insurance agent, the RMLO, the 3rd party loan servicer - everyone.

    A well thought out medium between analysis/knowledge and using experts -- in my opinion -- is the best way to advance.

    Stay safe

    Alan

  • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @T. Alan Ceshker:
    Quote from @Ken M.:
    Quote from @T. Alan Ceshker:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I did a loan assumption that is currently a GIANT pain in the ***. I’m here to share my story for whatever that’s worth.

    Over a year ago I did a wrap around mortgage on a place here in Phoenix at 3.5% over 27 years. Everything was smooth until it wasn’t. 6 months into it the tenant called and the toilet had failed in an upstairs bathroom. The house was flooded to the tune of $70,000 in repairs. 

    No big deal, I worked with insurance and contractors to get the repairs done. Six months later my insurance dropped me and here is where it gets sticky. I got a new insurance policy at a higher rate. I let the original borrower know they needed to update the lender on the new insurance policy. 

    The higher insurance premium required a higher escrow payment which the original borrower didn’t let me know.  A few months go by and unbeknownst to me the escrow account had now drawn negative which triggers the lender to no longer apply what’s considered a “partial” payment to them, given that I’m now paying less that what’s due given the escrow increase required but not relayed to me even though I expected it at some point.

    Last month I’m on Zillow looking at the value of my properties. One of my properties says it’s going to auction in March because it’s being foreclosed on. My heart rate goes through the roof as I have about $90k in equity in that house. I reach out to the original borrower and ask them what’s going on. They weren’t paying attention to it, and why would they, it’s not their house anymore. 

    They send over 3 months of notices from the bank. $10,000 has been collected by the lender and is in an “unapplied” status due to the short payments. They are foreclosing and are not open to discuss it. I call them, they won’t speak to me about the loan at all BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY NAME. 

    I have to sell it, but guess who has to request the payoff amount from the lender….thats right, the ORIGINAL borrower. So I am at the mercy of that person for basically EVERYTHING.

    I am still waiting on that payoff amount 9 days later and am up against a clock where they have scheduled the home for sale at auction come March.

    Take it all for what it's worth, I've learned plenty of lessons and made my share of mistakes. One thing is for sure, if I ever wrap another mortgage I am getting a POA to access the docs on the original loan so that I am never again at the mercy of that borrower to relay information. If it wasn't the insurance it would have been the property taxes. FFS

    THE END. 

    Let me know what you would have done differently?!




    You are correct re the POA. Actually, to allow access it is an authorization. We use the POA to allow for signing escrow refunds and claim checks.

    A couple other notes.  You also need to change all contact information to you - all email, phone, address.  Another thing is the insurance is sent to the bank from your insurance provider and the seller should never be needed as long as the documentation has been completed correctly.

    This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  A law degree does not mean you know anything re wraps.

    If worse comes to worse, you can stop the foreclosure with legal action - it costs some but you will not lose your equity.

    I would not throw the baby out with the bath water re doing wraps and I do hope all works out for you.

    Reach out if you need a referral to a good AZ attorney to help

    Be careful out there guys

    Alan 

    Not to be too blunt, but you are handing bullets to a six year old with a gun. He obviously will only get himself into more trouble because he now knows 1% more than he did, but not nearly enough to keep out of trouble. And, in my opinion, more importantly, the lurkers who never comment, now believe they have the "golden key" of information.

    As you already know, there is so much more to this, in order to stay out of trouble over the long term. 

    He believes he can find all that he needs to know on the internet. Which of course he can. You can find everything you need to know in a grocery store to make 

    Pumpkin spice loaf with almond praline dessert, too. But that doesn't mean you know the right ingredients or can assemble it without disaster. And it might not look very tempting when put together.

    This part is for anyone reading this who never comments:

    My humble advice to anyone attempting to do creative finance is:

    Creative finance is for experienced investors who have access to capital if everything goes wrong.

    1. Learn the laws
    2. Don't use a contract "off the internet", laws vary by state and are also regulated on a federal level
    3. Learn the financing techniques correctly
    4. Don’t skip parts of the process
    5. Don’t ever do a “kitchen table” closing
    6. Use the proper deed
    7. An attorney can help you with the legal work, but the rest you are on your own
    8. Your guru will not bail you out
    9. “Investing” in someone else’s deal by providing a small 2nd loan so the “investor” can pay for “cash to the seller” and for “closing costs” so he can do the deal is a very bad plan
    10. Know what problems can arise
    11. Learn the responses and solutions to problems before they are needed
    12. Know everything there is to know about Title and what that means
    13. Know who a "protected class" individual is
    14. Learn the "back doors"
    15. Learn human nature
    16. Understand timelines
    17. Understand regulation enforcement (some of these "mistakes" have a 10 year statue of limitations ( they can charge you 10 years AFTER you do the transaction) and carry hefty fines and possible imprisonment
    18. The court doesn't accept "I didn't know" for an answer"
    19. Know that the source of the lead plays a serious role in some states and federally
    20. Know how much of a "profit" pushes the boundaries to invite an investigation
    21. You can be sued by the seller if you don’t do things correctly
    22. You are automatically at fault if an investigator or attorney or regulator gets involved. You have to prove you did everything right and then because of “empathy” for the poor snook who “fell into you schemes” you may lose anyway.
    23. This is a legally binding transaction that will be treated that way by the law. There are regulations
    24. I could go on, but if you learn this much, and apply it appropriately, you will cut down your sorrows and risk considerably.

    And yes, there is much more. You can learn these things over time.

    Yes -- Nobody should try this unless all aspects are managed as needed.  I really can say that everything needs to be perfectly handled without any room for error.

    However, you do not need to go and study all aspects of Dodd/Frank, Safe Act, Senate Bill 43, the Property Code, the Finance Code, insurance law and all case law regarding wraps.  You can rely on the experts to assist you.  You can also partner with veteran investors and learn.  You just need the knowledge or rely on those with the knowledge - proven knowledge.

    Thus, my comment of:  This is why you must vet the law and title office you are closing with to make sure they know how to handle these transactions.  You must also vet the insurance agent, the RMLO, the 3rd party loan servicer - everyone.

    A well thought out medium between analysis/knowledge and using experts -- in my opinion -- is the best way to advance.

    Stay safe

    Alan

    .

    Yes, use an attorney for contracts & closing. Always. A good attorney will even warn you if you are doing something illegal.

    As you can see from the list, a wannabe or "self taught" or poorly trained by videos or in a "community", does not provide the breadth of knowledge & experience to keep people out of trouble.  (Just my humble opinion)

    Someone on Youtube who claims to be someone important, and has a "community", just said in a video, he is doing "kitchen table closings" since it's "convenient and he knows what he is doing. That becomes a "he said, she said" in court and I'd bet most judges would side with the plaintiff. ;-)

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Adam Michael Andrews:

    Too bad this guy deleted his account. If we bite off people’s heads when they admit disaster, it suppresses legitimate issues with these techniques.


     The legitimate issues were already discussed with him ad-nauseum in his previous posts from year(s) ago. 

    Anyone can go read it. Check out Whit B. on Bigger Pockets posts. He got ran out, cause he got exposed on the exact stuff we told him would happen. 

    Unfortunately, this may happen to that other Arizona guy too @Andrew McGuire. The one who bragged about buying houses with negative equity, cause he was buying sub2. 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/61/topics/1190869-im-bu...

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 107 posts · 89 votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Adam Michael Andrews:

    Too bad this guy deleted his account. If we bite off people’s heads when they admit disaster, it suppresses legitimate issues with these techniques.


     The legitimate issues were already discussed with him ad-nauseum in his previous posts from year(s) ago. 

    Anyone can go read it. Check out Whit B. on Bigger Pockets posts. He got ran out, cause he got exposed on the exact stuff we told him would happen. 

    Unfortunately, this may happen to that other Arizona guy too @Andrew McGuire. The one who bragged about buying houses with negative equity, cause he was buying sub2. 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/61/topics/1190869-im-bu...

    Okay, wasn’t following prior threads.

    It seems like there were a few ways around this.

    1. Have escrow released when the wrap is done and direct-pay the taxes and insurance. This way the payment never fluctuates.

    2. Have access to the lending portal so you can see what the escrow analysis, payment due, etc.

    3. Recognize that if your insurance goes up you need to pay $x more into escrow.

    4. You should have updated the address in the lender portal to your physical address so you receive statements and late pay warnings.


    Only way this scenario happens is if you do none of these.

     

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    Both loan servicing companies and insurance companies can be such a nightmare to work with even under normal circumstances. That is an uncontrollable variable. The loan can be sold on the secondary market at any time, or loan servicer switched or new sub-servicer taking over, insurance dropped, etc. Adding in the layer of not being on the loan but holding title just sounds like it will eventually lead to problems like OP experienced. It had better be a great deal to be worth dealing with all this headache and taking on this risk. 

  • Lender · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 118 posts · 19 votes
    1y

    So he did a non allowable assumption to get around non owner occupied rules and it bit him in the ***.

    Karma....

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.