Joint Venture - Is this a Scam?

Joint Venture - Is this a Scam?

Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes

Hi all,

I'm a long-time lurker/listener, but this is my first post in the forums.  After attending an awesome BP meetup in Philadelphia (hosted by @Troy S.) some red flags have come up regarding the structure we're looking to use to fund our first flip.

My partner, @Phil Sabella, and I have connected with a financier/partner who does JV's. It's set up as follows ('We' being Phil and I, 'They' being the financing company):

  • We find the deal and we use our finances to find the deal.
    • We can find the deal however we'd like. MLS, direct mail, through a wholesaler, etc.
    • The property can be located in PA or NJ, they do not care.
  • We have to send them a detailed comp report
  • We have to have our GC's come out for bids (on our dollar)
  • We have to have our inspector come out (on our dollar)
  • We have to get the property under contract with a 10 day inspection period before we can show it to them or have their inspector come out
  • The contract has to be assignable
  • $50,000 is the profit they ask us to shoot for
  • 6-8 week rehab time, no structural issues

Once we find a property and get it under contract, we must immediately pay $795 for their inspector to come out, send them our comp report and our GC estimates. They will verify what we send, and if they agree, we assign the contract to their company & we enter a JV agreement with them agreeing to split the profit 60% us, 40% them or 50/50 depending on the deal. They'll then put up 100% of costs including selling/staging and we will manage the entire project from start to finish.

At first I thought it sounded too good to be true.  But I started to come around when I realized this is a great way for their company to get deals done without lifting a finger, and we pay for their inspection.  Limited risk for them, limited risk for us.  They also rehab houses on their own, so if we screw up they come in and take the deal over and complete the project themselves.  If the deal is successful, they also offer hard money and encourage that for the next project.  I think this is a great way to set up a business, actually, and am impressed with the way they do things, if we're not being baited.

So, has anyone had success using a structure like this?  Is there anything we need to look out for?  My *biggest* concern is the $795 'commitment fee'.  There is nothing stopping them from saying "no" to five properties, pocketing the fees, end of story.  

I'd love to hear horror stories as well as success stories with this strategy.  Any advice would be fantastic!

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Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
11y

I read most of the posts. Pretty good thread.

A few thoughts.

1. If your a newb, you have to start somewhere.

2. If your a newb, you have to pay your dues.

3. Price seems a little steep, you may be able to do better BUT don't forget about 1 & 2. 

4. Real estate is about relationships.

Is this company the right company for you and your career? I don't know what other options you have. What I do know is that if you think they are it's worth it to take your lumps in the beginning.

@Jay Hinrichs touched on relationships. Not saying this is necessarily a good, bad or marginal deal for you. However even if it is marginal sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Real estate is not about houses or. It is about RELATIONSHIPS.

You don't create relationships by always second guessing whether or not you squeezed every single penny out of every single deal. You make them through doing business with people in the industry. In the beginning the deals and terms are always going to be the worst. With a quality relationship they will just continue to get better and better.

Example: I met this local lady. She had some properties she wanted to sell via owner financing. She's getting out of the rental game but didn't want to pay capital gains taxes so she wanted to sell on 10 year terms. SWEET.

She owns 20 something houses mostly all in the heart of my investing area. So we come to terms on two of these houses. She told me what she wanted for them and I bought them. I could have countered and got a better deal but I didn't. Why? THE RELATIONSHIP. She owns 20 of these things and does not want all the cash at once. I wanted to be the first guy she called because I was the easiest guy to work with.

Fast forward a few months later. Guess who calls me and wants to sell two more houses? Yep, same lady. 

One house was great. The other I really didn't want. Bad neighborhood. She really just wanted it off her hands. So guess what I did? I bought the darn thing anyway. Never even went inside. Actually I never even went to the street it's on. My partner John did a drive by, was not impressed but hey we are cultivating a relationship here.

Fast forward again. Guess who called me with another great house to sell in my prime area? Same lady? Nope. Her daughter this time. Guess what, her daughter owns 40 homes in the area and wanted to start unloading some as well. 

So who was the first person she called? Why of course the easiest guys to work with.

Bought that house on owner financed terms with a Joint Venture partner and it was a pretty great deal. Cheaper than anything on the MLS and it was owner financed.

Guess what my reason was for taking this great deal to this particular Joint Venture partner? Our Relationship. I have about 30 people who would have done that JV with the terms I got, but I ran it past his desk first. Why? Our relationship. I Have done many deals in the past with this investor and he's always been the easiest guy to work with, has treated me fairly and understands that our relationship is more important than any one deal.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Juan Perez

      I reread the OP  the company DOES fund 100% of the deal.. the OP does the leg work at his expense... flipping a deal is always an option of course

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 5 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Juan Perez

      I reread the OP  the company DOES fund 100% of the deal.. the OP does the leg work at his expense... flipping a deal is always an option of course

     you are correct re read and you are right they fund the project after he did the leg work, so in this case I guess flipping would be easier and faster IMO

  • Investor · Murphy, TX · Member since 2011 · 189 posts · 86 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    When you do these deals, do you fund them with your own cash, or do you work with lenders? I'm assuming you are funding with your own cash, because I'm not sure it makes sense that your partner would be willing to pay interest on a note AND pay you a % of profits. I guess it all depends on how the JV is structured.

    I'm curious because I could potentially work with someone like  @Jim Stoffey, but I only have enough cash to fund 1 or 2 deals at a time. I would need to find a lending source to scale up. It's not something I'm seriously considering at this time. I need more experience to be able to add value for someone like Jim. I'm just curious.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    11y

    I think to sum it up.. different strokes, different folks. I know I could use HML to do deals and likely make marginal more money, but I chose the JV route. You're on the opposite side of the table from a HML. They want you to drag their money out as long as possible, they don't care if you break even or lose money, and they're "cold" to the transaction. Using a JV partner, both parties are looking to sell quickly, maximize profits - they're "warm" in the transaction.

    Not to mention the fact that you build a relationship with a JV partner, the subsequent deals become easier to work. HML is going to charge me an appraisal fee, draw schedules, draw inspections, etc. every single time. Time is money.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Mark Gallagher

    having lent my share of HM your absolutely correct lender borrower is advisarial on its face... you can start out great with a borrower,, but when things go a little sideways your the big bad money grubbing lender... JV is more of an alignment of interests, not to mention all the money you save on the ancillary stuff.. but not all JV's are good either its finding that partner and structure that works well for all...

  • Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes
    11y

    Sorry for the delay in response.  I didn't realize this post was getting so much attention from you all.  The advice has been fantastic.

    @Jay Hinrichs to clarify, although you did clarify already, but again my only financial risk is the $795 'Commitment Fee' which covers their inspection.  They could turn down 3 deals and yes we'd be out $2400, but we potentially saved ourselves from 3 bad deals that could have drowned us. 

    @Mark Gallagher has provided excellent advice as well. To your point, it is all about building relationships. That's why I like the JV structure. I also like the hand holding for my first deal. Before this all fell together, I was looking to do an intern/shadow for a flip for someone else. But I feel confident I'm ready for this.

    @Bill Hinshaw keep me posted with your progress.  It does seem like a great way for you get out of that "employee" status in your business so you can scale.  Cashflow quadrant!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Jim Stoffey

    some of my bigger Clients I have well over 2 million out to at anyone time.. try to walk into your private lender and get those type of funds.. along with your HML.. This is exactly what we are talking about relationship.. and why do I do that .. Because they make me a ton of money.. and I make them a ton of Money and they have constant deal flow.. Etc etc.

    Its a different conceptual idea for the rehabber.. think CAPITAL PARTNER  and let everyone make big bucks..

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    My biggest question/concern is What stops these people from saying no to 3-4 deals and pocketing the 800$ 'commitment fee' Like @Jim Stoffey said, that could be $2400. I want to get references from other JV partners who have done this with DLP. I want to know what their experience was, how they felt after everything was done, and whatever else they'd like to tell me.

    Since they say they are in NJ and PA, I have people in other areas who would gladly monitor the rehab while I put up the $800 commitment fee.  Seems like a pretty nice deal for both of us. No money out of their pockets, just time to monitor rehab, and then we would split the 50-60% between us.  The guy I'm thinking about doing this with isn't working at the moment.  It would be perfect for him.  And what's more, I trust him completely to handle this.  

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 808 posts · 417 votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann

    getting references is always a good idea. 

    Leaving aside if the JV is the best way to fund and assuming its not a scam than the fee is probably a very wise business move because a large percentage of the deals you see are from people who are delusional or are not taking numerous things into account (delays, closing cost, wrong comps, time, etc.). By charging a fee you ensure you only do business with people who know their deal is good and who don't sweat $800. It also covers your cost basis for the inspection which is important at scale. I would also point out that its not that much more than appraisal fees that are common in the industry.

  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    I saw an episode of American Greed this weekend, regarding a company called Remington Financial Group that charged an up-front fee to entrepreneurs in exchange for helping them find funding for their ventures.  Unfortunately, they only found funding for less than 2% of them and just pocketed the fees from the other 98%.  Here's the story on NY Times.

    I AM NOT SAYING THAT'S WHAT THESE GUYS ARE DOING.  Just thought it was interesting to hear about a financial scam that was based on up-front fees....

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Dev Horn

      too funny  I saw the same and posted a new thread on BP about it... did not get a lot of hits.

      I actually during the credit crisis when our PDX banks froze  ... contacted them about doing a subdivision A and D loan for me... sent docs down  but I got a pre qual letter to quick and what I thought was too easy... next step was the 10k for due diligence, being a lender myself it was just too easy...

    I did check up on DLP ( goggle search) because this peaked my interest .. they have large Internet presence.. they are a brick and mortar RE brokerage with about 30 agents then they also have a Hard money company.. and it looks like they just decided to add this JV product to their menu... I personally don't think they are just a shop set up to take 800 bucks from a bunch of people...

    Remington those dudes were crooks.. if you did not watch the whole thing the head honcho got 18 years and his buddy got 16 years..

  • Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes
    11y

    Oh man! I love that show...but that's exactly why we were concerned. We're looking at a property today with our GC we are very interested in.  I don't think that's what these guys are doing, but we'll find out! Keep you all posted

    @Dev Horn

  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Dev Horn

      too funny  I saw the same and posted a new thread on BP about it... did not get a lot of hits.

      I actually during the credit crisis when our PDX banks froze  ... contacted them about doing a subdivision A and D loan for me... sent docs down  but I got a pre qual letter to quick and what I thought was too easy... next step was the 10k for due diligence, being a lender myself it was just too easy...

    I did check up on DLP ( goggle search) because this peaked my interest .. they have large Internet presence.. they are a brick and mortar RE brokerage with about 30 agents then they also have a Hard money company.. and it looks like they just decided to add this JV product to their menu... I personally don't think they are just a shop set up to take 800 bucks from a bunch of people...

    Remington those dudes were crooks.. if you did not watch the whole thing the head honcho got 18 years and his buddy got 16 years..

     Good to hear what you found - I'd probably charge $795 per deal up-front too just to keep out the junk deals with terrible numbers.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    @Jim Stoffey@Jay Hinrichs

    I spoke with a Patrick Heller from DLP this afternoon. He is sending me a lot of info. One piece being some verifiable transactions DLP has been a part of. Their LLC they use for the JV product is "Good As New Ventures LLC" Any property that I would bring to them to fund needs to be assignable to this LLC.

    Regarding the $795 "deposit"... it's now $895, it went up "just last week", but i get a sense that, as @Dev Horn stated, it's more to keep the yahoo's at bay. They will not collect the 800-900 fee until they KNOW that they will do the deal. Only when they have done the diligence on their end will you have to pay the commitment fee. 

    The $50K spread isn't something they worry about.  Patrick Heller made it clear to me that as long as both parties (DLP and Myself) are happy doing the deal, then they will move forward, even if it's a smaller spread. He used a 20K spread as an example on the phone with me.  

    As far as equity split, he mentioned 50-70%, even 80% to me. This would depend on how involved I am in the rehab process he said. 

    DLP has a few companies that they use. The one they use for this JV thing is DLP construction. Mr. Heller told me that last year they did 135 deals thru DLP construction worth somewhere near $10 mil.

    Patrick Heller did burst my bubble at the end of our conversation. They JV in a 75 mile radius from the home office, located in Bethlehem. The only place they WILL NOT JV is in my home city of Philly... go figure. something about taking too long for permits and inspections. The 75 mile radius equates to basically all of NJ and all of eastern PA up to above the poconos, but not in NY.

    Hope this helps some people. Personally, I would definitely use them if I needed to, in order to get started flipping home. I wouldn't JV more than once, maybe twice though. I don't want to be splitting the profits all the time. After they JV with me, Patrick Heller recommended I go a Hard Money route with them @ 20% down, 14.99% interest and 4 pts on a 6 month loan, 6 pts on a 12 month loan.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann

    pretty typical HML rates most guys shoot for 18 to 22% APR's and hope for some early pays to increase yield.

    I suspect on the JV they also will do the 20k deals or whatever split but they probably ( I don't know for sure just surmising) that they will have a pref return that is equal to or a little better than the HML rates.... I don't see them doing JV deal 100% of the money and taking less than what they can get on a HML.. that would make zero sense.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann

    Why is their construction company involved in the JV deal?

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

    @Mark Redmann

    Why is their construction company involved in the JV deal?

     I didn't ask, but I believe he answered the question anyway.  They have it set up in such a way that if my GC walks for whatever reason, they have access to people who can finish the job, rather than wait for me to find a new GC. They can step in immediately and finish the job and not wait. 

    He also told me that they are using outside investors money to fund these deals.  They have a ton of money at the ready, but not enough deals. @Jay Hinrichs is it possible that they are giving the investors some pref return and DLP is just splitting the profits with me? or would that not makes sense to DLP? I am still learning all this stuff, sorry if that's a dopey question. Patrick Heller DID say they don't want to keep doing JV's with me. They'd rather me do one or two with them so that I can get up my own funds, then move to a HML with them.

  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Sounds interesting - thanks for keeping us all updated.  Still seems a little fishy now learning that the projects being done by their own construction company.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann

    I would ask to see a copy of their JV agreement.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 677 posts · 309 votes
    11y

    DO YOU FOLKS REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS TO GET MONEY? Try it a few times if you think private investors or private money is just going to chase you and chase you or HML are so eager and have no criteria which most would fail to meet.

    You are talking about a golden opportunity. If you were the money man wouldn't you want to make sure, absolutely sure if you could to make a profit? They are taking a big chance especially on newbies which more often then not miscalculate cost and time. Basically you are taking a chance on someone that knows nothing but hope they will succeed in getting a project done within budget and on time. 

    Just find a money partner, oh yes like that is so easy. What do you think people with money got it because they are fools? The money is taking all the risk, period. I could always pay someone by the hour to find me deals and that would be the end of it. 

    Honestly guys while this may not be for everyone for those with no money and no contacts, no money to back them up what are the chances? This way you may have millions of dollars to back you up and when you do make money you can invest that in your own deals, do fix and flips or buy and holds of your own. Time is money , right?

    Do you want to work for 5 years to build up a business or do you want to start making money today?

    Again if it was your money wouldn't you want to make sure of the appraisal values, the comps, the repair estimates and know the time things will take to get done? Wouldn't you want someone who represents you to meet your partner/client in person?

    So they cover their cost, charge you $795.00 to make sure the property will appraise correctly. 

    I will tell you that most of this groups will not only ask 50% of the net but on top of that charge you between 9% and 12% of their money. In some cases if you have some of your own money into the deal they will also allow you to earn 12% on your money and if you look around there are companies that will pay you for your work according to the scale of your work, for example if you are a journeyman carpenter and you do all the of the carpentry you will get paid and your pay will be counted along with all the other costs of the project.  

    In this case there was no mention of that only the $795.00 for a verification of appraised value and from 40% to 50% of the net. 

    If you think you offer so much, you deserve so much more then by all means hunt around for money from private partners or HML but from where I sit this company is offering you a pretty good deal. That they require at least $50K in gains only makes good business sense to me.

    Its always good to perform your due diligence and verify you are dealing with someone legit but as @Mark Gallagher recommends, do a contract assignment to someone with allot more construction experience and learn from how the deal actually goes then once you have that down try one on your own. 

    What this company offers is not the end all. It is just one more opportunity out there and for those that do not have money its a dam good opportunity if you ask me. 

    Do not think of it as you paying them $795 for finding them good deals but rather think of it as paying $795.00 to be backed by possibly millions and the opportunity to do 10s, or even 100s of deals. 

    Stay in real estate for 10 to 20 years and you will finally see the light and the wisdom of connecting with a company like this and the advantages will come to light for you. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y

    I read most of the posts. Pretty good thread.

    A few thoughts.

    1. If your a newb, you have to start somewhere.

    2. If your a newb, you have to pay your dues.

    3. Price seems a little steep, you may be able to do better BUT don't forget about 1 & 2. 

    4. Real estate is about relationships.

    Is this company the right company for you and your career? I don't know what other options you have. What I do know is that if you think they are it's worth it to take your lumps in the beginning.

    @Jay Hinrichs touched on relationships. Not saying this is necessarily a good, bad or marginal deal for you. However even if it is marginal sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Real estate is not about houses or. It is about RELATIONSHIPS.

    You don't create relationships by always second guessing whether or not you squeezed every single penny out of every single deal. You make them through doing business with people in the industry. In the beginning the deals and terms are always going to be the worst. With a quality relationship they will just continue to get better and better.

    Example: I met this local lady. She had some properties she wanted to sell via owner financing. She's getting out of the rental game but didn't want to pay capital gains taxes so she wanted to sell on 10 year terms. SWEET.

    She owns 20 something houses mostly all in the heart of my investing area. So we come to terms on two of these houses. She told me what she wanted for them and I bought them. I could have countered and got a better deal but I didn't. Why? THE RELATIONSHIP. She owns 20 of these things and does not want all the cash at once. I wanted to be the first guy she called because I was the easiest guy to work with.

    Fast forward a few months later. Guess who calls me and wants to sell two more houses? Yep, same lady. 

    One house was great. The other I really didn't want. Bad neighborhood. She really just wanted it off her hands. So guess what I did? I bought the darn thing anyway. Never even went inside. Actually I never even went to the street it's on. My partner John did a drive by, was not impressed but hey we are cultivating a relationship here.

    Fast forward again. Guess who called me with another great house to sell in my prime area? Same lady? Nope. Her daughter this time. Guess what, her daughter owns 40 homes in the area and wanted to start unloading some as well. 

    So who was the first person she called? Why of course the easiest guys to work with.

    Bought that house on owner financed terms with a Joint Venture partner and it was a pretty great deal. Cheaper than anything on the MLS and it was owner financed.

    Guess what my reason was for taking this great deal to this particular Joint Venture partner? Our Relationship. I have about 30 people who would have done that JV with the terms I got, but I ran it past his desk first. Why? Our relationship. I Have done many deals in the past with this investor and he's always been the easiest guy to work with, has treated me fairly and understands that our relationship is more important than any one deal.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @James Wise

      I knew you could contribute more than welcoming folks to the site  LOL.

    GREAT POST and DEAD ON PIONT.

    You just don't wake up one day and have all sorts of money thrown at you because you decided you want to jump in the RE game.. you MUST do some apprenticeship or however you want to couch it.

    Greatest mistake I see would be investors make.. is don't do deals because they think THEY are the key to success when in fact its the MONEY that is the key.. Plently of people to do the work.. that's not hard.. And in reverse here were you got a seller to spoon feed you deals... I have bought many packages of homes over the years.. and had to throw the bad ones out.. Literally pay for them then let them go to tax's but seller wanted all or none, many investors would balk.. just goes against the grain

    Lets See some more James Wise wisdom and detailed posts I for one appreciate them.

    Fried Ruben rolls... can't get them out of my mind..

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @James Wise

      I knew you could contribute more than welcoming folks to the site  LOL.

    GREAT POST and DEAD ON PIONT.

    You just don't wake up one day and have all sorts of money thrown at you because you decided you want to jump in the RE game.. you MUST do some apprenticeship or however you want to couch it.

    Greatest mistake I see would be investors make.. is don't do deals because they think THEY are the key to success when in fact its the MONEY that is the key.. Plently of people to do the work.. that's not hard.. And in reverse here were you got a seller to spoon feed you deals... I have bought many packages of homes over the years.. and had to throw the bad ones out.. Literally pay for them then let them go to tax's but seller wanted all or none, many investors would balk.. just goes against the grain

    Lets See some more James Wise wisdom and detailed posts I for one appreciate them.

    Fried Ruben rolls... can't get them out of my mind..

     I can't go to crazy with detailed posts. I have to save something for my future book. Unlike some folks around here I don't own a plane..............Yet : )

    @jim stoffey

    Welcome to the site. Good luck to you. I hope whichever route you take works out well for you.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @James Wise

       Touche'

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 677 posts · 309 votes
    11y

    @James Wise

    Yes, I too have been wondering what else you did besides welcome people to the site, LOL. 

    Good post !! and great deal. 

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