Joint Venture - Is this a Scam?

Joint Venture - Is this a Scam?

Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes

Hi all,

I'm a long-time lurker/listener, but this is my first post in the forums.  After attending an awesome BP meetup in Philadelphia (hosted by @Troy S.) some red flags have come up regarding the structure we're looking to use to fund our first flip.

My partner, @Phil Sabella, and I have connected with a financier/partner who does JV's. It's set up as follows ('We' being Phil and I, 'They' being the financing company):

  • We find the deal and we use our finances to find the deal.
    • We can find the deal however we'd like. MLS, direct mail, through a wholesaler, etc.
    • The property can be located in PA or NJ, they do not care.
  • We have to send them a detailed comp report
  • We have to have our GC's come out for bids (on our dollar)
  • We have to have our inspector come out (on our dollar)
  • We have to get the property under contract with a 10 day inspection period before we can show it to them or have their inspector come out
  • The contract has to be assignable
  • $50,000 is the profit they ask us to shoot for
  • 6-8 week rehab time, no structural issues

Once we find a property and get it under contract, we must immediately pay $795 for their inspector to come out, send them our comp report and our GC estimates. They will verify what we send, and if they agree, we assign the contract to their company & we enter a JV agreement with them agreeing to split the profit 60% us, 40% them or 50/50 depending on the deal. They'll then put up 100% of costs including selling/staging and we will manage the entire project from start to finish.

At first I thought it sounded too good to be true.  But I started to come around when I realized this is a great way for their company to get deals done without lifting a finger, and we pay for their inspection.  Limited risk for them, limited risk for us.  They also rehab houses on their own, so if we screw up they come in and take the deal over and complete the project themselves.  If the deal is successful, they also offer hard money and encourage that for the next project.  I think this is a great way to set up a business, actually, and am impressed with the way they do things, if we're not being baited.

So, has anyone had success using a structure like this?  Is there anything we need to look out for?  My *biggest* concern is the $795 'commitment fee'.  There is nothing stopping them from saying "no" to five properties, pocketing the fees, end of story.  

I'd love to hear horror stories as well as success stories with this strategy.  Any advice would be fantastic!

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Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
11y

I read most of the posts. Pretty good thread.

A few thoughts.

1. If your a newb, you have to start somewhere.

2. If your a newb, you have to pay your dues.

3. Price seems a little steep, you may be able to do better BUT don't forget about 1 & 2. 

4. Real estate is about relationships.

Is this company the right company for you and your career? I don't know what other options you have. What I do know is that if you think they are it's worth it to take your lumps in the beginning.

@Jay Hinrichs touched on relationships. Not saying this is necessarily a good, bad or marginal deal for you. However even if it is marginal sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Real estate is not about houses or. It is about RELATIONSHIPS.

You don't create relationships by always second guessing whether or not you squeezed every single penny out of every single deal. You make them through doing business with people in the industry. In the beginning the deals and terms are always going to be the worst. With a quality relationship they will just continue to get better and better.

Example: I met this local lady. She had some properties she wanted to sell via owner financing. She's getting out of the rental game but didn't want to pay capital gains taxes so she wanted to sell on 10 year terms. SWEET.

She owns 20 something houses mostly all in the heart of my investing area. So we come to terms on two of these houses. She told me what she wanted for them and I bought them. I could have countered and got a better deal but I didn't. Why? THE RELATIONSHIP. She owns 20 of these things and does not want all the cash at once. I wanted to be the first guy she called because I was the easiest guy to work with.

Fast forward a few months later. Guess who calls me and wants to sell two more houses? Yep, same lady. 

One house was great. The other I really didn't want. Bad neighborhood. She really just wanted it off her hands. So guess what I did? I bought the darn thing anyway. Never even went inside. Actually I never even went to the street it's on. My partner John did a drive by, was not impressed but hey we are cultivating a relationship here.

Fast forward again. Guess who called me with another great house to sell in my prime area? Same lady? Nope. Her daughter this time. Guess what, her daughter owns 40 homes in the area and wanted to start unloading some as well. 

So who was the first person she called? Why of course the easiest guys to work with.

Bought that house on owner financed terms with a Joint Venture partner and it was a pretty great deal. Cheaper than anything on the MLS and it was owner financed.

Guess what my reason was for taking this great deal to this particular Joint Venture partner? Our Relationship. I have about 30 people who would have done that JV with the terms I got, but I ran it past his desk first. Why? Our relationship. I Have done many deals in the past with this investor and he's always been the easiest guy to work with, has treated me fairly and understands that our relationship is more important than any one deal.

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  • Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes
    11y

    Haha! @James Wise I was just listening to your podcast in my car and I was thinking "ah man, he didn't welcome me! :(" You must have read my mind!

    This structure provides a way for us to be involved, be protected, and most importantly, build relationships. You and @Jay Hinrichs hit the nail on the head.  I am way more interested in the education here.

    Let me know when you write your book; if you send me a free copy I'll make it my favorite real estate book on the podcast when Brandon and Josh invite me for an episode (in my dreams)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Jim Stoffey

    James Welcome Wagon Wise    !!!!  just could not resist  !!!

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 351 posts · 220 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jim Stoffey:

    Hi all,

    I'm a long-time lurker/listener, but this is my first post in the forums.  After attending an awesome BP meetup in Philadelphia (hosted by @Troy S.) some red flags have come up regarding the structure we're looking to use to fund our first flip.

    My partner, @Phil Sabella, and I have connected with a financier/partner who does JV's. It's set up as follows ('We' being Phil and I, 'They' being the financing company):

    • We find the deal and we use our finances to find the deal.
      • We can find the deal however we'd like. MLS, direct mail, through a wholesaler, etc.
      • The property can be located in PA or NJ, they do not care.
    • We have to send them a detailed comp report
    • We have to have our GC's come out for bids (on our dollar)
    • We have to have our inspector come out (on our dollar)
    • We have to get the property under contract with a 10 day inspection period before we can show it to them or have their inspector come out
    • The contract has to be assignable
    • $50,000 is the profit they ask us to shoot for
    • 6-8 week rehab time, no structural issues

    Once we find a property and get it under contract, we must immediately pay $795 for their inspector to come out, send them our comp report and our GC estimates. They will verify what we send, and if they agree, we assign the contract to their company & we enter a JV agreement with them agreeing to split the profit 60% us, 40% them or 50/50 depending on the deal. They'll then put up 100% of costs including selling/staging and we will manage the entire project from start to finish.

    At first I thought it sounded too good to be true.  But I started to come around when I realized this is a great way for their company to get deals done without lifting a finger, and we pay for their inspection.  Limited risk for them, limited risk for us.  They also rehab houses on their own, so if we screw up they come in and take the deal over and complete the project themselves.  If the deal is successful, they also offer hard money and encourage that for the next project.  I think this is a great way to set up a business, actually, and am impressed with the way they do things, if we're not being baited.

    So, has anyone had success using a structure like this?  Is there anything we need to look out for?  My *biggest* concern is the $795 'commitment fee'.  There is nothing stopping them from saying "no" to five properties, pocketing the fees, end of story.  

    I'd love to hear horror stories as well as success stories with this strategy.  Any advice would be fantastic!

     Jim,

    Save your money 20% usually and do this deal on your own....... Barrow it from your mom, uncle, cousin, grandpa, or the lady nextdoor.  If the deal is that good you will have no problem getting it done.  My father in law a 7th grade drop out self made millionaire used to say "KISS" keep it simple stupid..... he died 3 years ago I sure miss him.  He would give you the same advise I just gave.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Gilbert Dominguez:

    @James Wise

    Yes, I too have been wondering what else you did besides welcome people to the site, LOL.

    What can I say I love saying hi. Occasionally I sell some real estate as well lol.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jim Stoffey:

    Haha! @James Wise I was just listening to your podcast in my car and I was thinking "ah man, he didn't welcome me! :(" You must have read my mind!

    This structure provides a way for us to be involved, be protected, and most importantly, build relationships. You and @Jay Hinrichs hit the nail on the head.  I am way more interested in the education here.

    Let me know when you write your book; if you send me a free copy I'll make it my favorite real estate book on the podcast when Brandon and Josh invite me for an episode (in my dreams)

     Sounds like a deal to me. 

    That's relationship building folks.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    @James Wise

    I love that post.  That's the one thing Patrick Heller kept on stressing during our conversation.  It's all about the relationship. 

    1. Yes I am new to the game and have to start somewhere

    2. Yes I'm a newb and will pay my dues

    3. Price seems steep?  Well, like you said, refer to 1 + 2. @Brandon Turner says 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. 

    4. I enjoy making good relationships. I've always been good at that in my personal life. I'll use it to my advantage in REI!!!

    You should definitely make some longer posts! I always find myself nodding my head while reading what you're writing. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Audubon, NJ · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 29 votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann It makes sense for DLP to want to build relationships, so you'll come back to them for hard money....Honestly, 0% of something instead of -10% works for me! Can we call this flip hacking??

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mark Redmann:

    @James Wise

    I love that post.  That's the one thing Patrick Heller kept on stressing during our conversation.  It's all about the relationship. 

    1. Yes I am new to the game and have to start somewhere

    2. Yes I'm a newb and will pay my dues

    3. Price seems steep?  Well, like you said, refer to 1 + 2. @Brandon Turner says 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. 

    4. I enjoy making good relationships. I've always been good at that in my personal life. I'll use it to my advantage in REI!!!

    You should definitely make some longer posts! I always find myself nodding my head while reading what you're writing. 

     Right on. Thanks for the Kudos and good luck getting out there and building those relationships.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann@James Wise

      my career such as it is    is totally based on relationships I have made over the last 40 years.. its been much more fruitful the last 20 as I gain experience and track record.

    However to be VERY frank  I am like James Wise I was a RE agent and broker I made most of my valuable connections because of that.. not being an investor that no one has ever heard of or done business with.. this is why I really can't understand why there is such a negative bent towards being licensed

    Selling RE opened up ALL the doors to me.. without it I would just be another wholesaler flipper trying to make a 100k a year and think they hit the lotto  !!

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Mark Redmann@James Wise

      my career such as it is    is totally based on relationships I have made over the last 40 years.. its been much more fruitful the last 20 as I gain experience and track record.

    However to be VERY frank  I am like James Wise I was a RE agent and broker I made most of my valuable connections because of that.. not being an investor that no one has ever heard of or done business with.. this is why I really can't understand why there is such a negative bent towards being licensed

    Selling RE opened up ALL the doors to me.. without it I would just be another wholesaler flipper trying to make a 100k a year and think they hit the lotto  !!

     I agree. Super negative attitude towards agents on this site and it makes NO sense.

    I think a lot of that has to do with people's misconception of what agents actually do. Everyone comes on and wants to do deals, make money without buying things, Find deals, connect people and get paid.

    Hello....? Folks what was just described is the job of a real estate agent!

    There is a lot more to it than sunday open houses and first time home buyers.

    About a week or so ago I read the best line I have seen all year on the site. People were talking about how real estate agents can't find off market deals

    @Bill Gulley said it. Something like "Agent's can't find off market deals? How do you think they got put on the market?"

  • Real Estate Investor · Lansdowne, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 656 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jim Stoffey:

    Hi all,

    I'm a long-time lurker/listener, but this is my first post in the forums.  After attending an awesome BP meetup in Philadelphia (hosted by @Troy S.) some red flags have come up regarding the structure we're looking to use to fund our first flip.

    My partner, @Phil Sabella, and I have connected with a financier/partner who does JV's. It's set up as follows ('We' being Phil and I, 'They' being the financing company):

    • We find the deal and we use our finances to find the deal.
      • We can find the deal however we'd like. MLS, direct mail, through a wholesaler, etc.
      • The property can be located in PA or NJ, they do not care.
    • We have to send them a detailed comp report
    • We have to have our GC's come out for bids (on our dollar)
    • We have to have our inspector come out (on our dollar)
    • We have to get the property under contract with a 10 day inspection period before we can show it to them or have their inspector come out
    • The contract has to be assignable
    • $50,000 is the profit they ask us to shoot for
    • 6-8 week rehab time, no structural issues

    Once we find a property and get it under contract, we must immediately pay $795 for their inspector to come out, send them our comp report and our GC estimates. They will verify what we send, and if they agree, we assign the contract to their company & we enter a JV agreement with them agreeing to split the profit 60% us, 40% them or 50/50 depending on the deal. They'll then put up 100% of costs including selling/staging and we will manage the entire project from start to finish.

    At first I thought it sounded too good to be true.  But I started to come around when I realized this is a great way for their company to get deals done without lifting a finger, and we pay for their inspection.  Limited risk for them, limited risk for us.  They also rehab houses on their own, so if we screw up they come in and take the deal over and complete the project themselves.  If the deal is successful, they also offer hard money and encourage that for the next project.  I think this is a great way to set up a business, actually, and am impressed with the way they do things, if we're not being baited.

    So, has anyone had success using a structure like this?  Is there anything we need to look out for?  My *biggest* concern is the $795 'commitment fee'.  There is nothing stopping them from saying "no" to five properties, pocketing the fees, end of story.  

    I'd love to hear horror stories as well as success stories with this strategy.  Any advice would be fantastic!

    I was recently offered a JV opportunity that would cost me about $800 skin in and this sounds pretty similar to what I was told. I'll be speaking with the gentleman later this week.

    I've heard of certain HMLs that offer similar JV deals but they still want that high interest and only putting up 70% or 75% of the funds. Which means you'd still have to come up with 25% to 30% and then split the pre-taxed yield. They required a minimum $40K profit but still the fees would eat up all of the profit.

    If its a minimum $50K profit (split $25K each) that's better then nothing. I can see them coming in handy not on every rehab but to start... 

    Kudos,

    Mary

  • Contractor · Lowell, IN · Member since 2014 · 31 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    Maybe I should read a little closer, but if you aren't physically doing the work, why wouldn't you just let their construction company do the work if they are still going to split 50/50, (unless of course they charge too much, compare their price to your GC's estimate). This sweetens the deal for them. They probably get volume discounts and the speed and efficiency would probably far exceed what you can do acting as the general contractor or using yours.  On your first flip, mistakes will probably cost you a few thousand anyway. If you are going to make this a learning experience, show up everyday(don't get in the way) ask a few quick pertinent questions if needed as to why and how but mainly watch and see how an experienced company turns a flip.  It would be a live flip podcast that you are getting paid to watch.  You will learn so much in a short amount of time. This fast track to knowledge will pay off for the rest of your life. All this is assuming that DLP is legit.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Jim Stoffey

      I do a little bit of this type of work... and from the Money's side of the table they are taking all the risk,, you simply risk time.. and if the deal is that great it will all work as long as you trust them to be fair and honest... I would in no way give someone with no money and new to the business any kind of ownership of the asset period end of discussion.. Most Hard money lenders are going to require 20% of cost so if you have that plus reserves then that is by far the best bet.

    If this Is for real and they are not just trying to get a thousand bird dogs to pay them a 795 up front fee for their inspector they probably pay 100 bucks to drive out and look at and fund very few deals ( like many mortgage scams) .. then these can be pretty nice set ups for you to gain experience and build your resume'

    I would also hit Mark off line he is a very experienced licensed Broker in that area and one who knows the investor side of the coin

    I agree with Jay. Most HMLs require 20% downpayment and sometimes, for newbies, they don't even fund the repairs. I also JV - even with newbies but they have to have skin in the game (at least 10% for experienced investors and 20% for newbies).

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    Read page 1, skimmed 2, skipped 3 and read 4 from my name being mentioned, thanks James! 

    There is a difference between a scam, a ripoff, playing hard ball and doing business in good faith. Depending on what they actually accept, they could be in the ripoff category, as mentioned if they don't do much in reality they could be a scam. 

    Assuming they do the deals, looks to me like they are in they hard ball category in the beginning, not bad, but watch out. After a few good deals done, they will probably be in the last category which is where you want to be dealing. 

    After a few great deals, I'd be telling them to start making concessions on those fees!

    Pretty big assumptions being made here. 50K in profit on a short term add lipstick flip is going to be hard to find without structural or major issues. I'm not familiar with the market up there, but here, there are no properties that need simple rehabs that you can get to push that property's price above its neighborhood market. I'd need to go to about 250K with 10/15K in materials to get around 320K and that's pushing it. You'd be better off doing new construction.

    Look at the reality of your market. I'd think adding lipstick to a sound structure for 50K will be hard to do. Might read J. Scott's flipping book, I'm sure he outlined costs and your finished product needs to be in line with the market. And, I'm not even addressing that guru stuff at finding properties at a "discount" horsefeathers! Good deals, yes, distressed properties, yes, but how many are there in the inventory of your market. 

    I agree too, just use a HML or find yourself a money partner who is local as Jay mentioned.

    That company certainly has done a marketing job on newbies, that fee is to wash out bad deals and not burn up their time. When I present an opportunity for someone I don't pay them to look at it!

    It would be interesting to see the JV Agreement and how they determine when to kick you aside and take over the project. A wholesaler may not have any recourse, that's the hard ball side.

    As to Realtors, wholesalers seem to be clueless, there is nothing wholesalers do that Realtors don't do legally. Whatever a wholesaler can dream up as their service, a Realtor has already done it. There are contractors, rehab types, landlords, flippers, lenders, appraisers and even attorneys and closing agents that hold a real estate license. The "value" of any service has nothing to do with how hard you worked, it might take a newbie 3 weeks to make the 5K I might do in 3 hours, the value of what is accomplished can be the same. :) 

  • Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    4. Real estate is about relationships.

    Guess what my reason was for taking this great deal to this particular Joint Venture partner? Our Relationship. I have about 30 people who would have done that JV with the terms I got, but I ran it past his desk first. Why? Our relationship. I Have done many deals in the past with this investor and he's always been the easiest guy to work with, has treated me fairly and understands that our relationship is more important than any one deal.

    I appreciated this post ... immensely! It's something that we all (likely) deal with on a day-to-day basis - relationships. But an important point you made was being, "the easiest guy to work with."

    I get it. I know some may think you need to haggle someone to death, or get things on your terms, and hey, if you have the $$$ then as they say, "Cash is King." But the reality is, people really do want to work with those who are easy to work with. Plus, you were thinking long term. It wasn't just about this one deal; it was about all the rest that would (hopefully) follow - as they have. Good stuff.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    I got a copy of the JV agreement, but i dont know how to attach it to this post. I emailed you the info Patrick Heller sent to me.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Mark Redmann

    Jeff e mailed it to me I read it... pretty standard and vanilla and preciscly as I described It above.

  • Woodland Hills, CA · Member since 2015 · 46 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    I don't think they will perform well. and/or assign clauses usually makes sellers reluctant, they believe that wholesaler cannot close. Second, I don't think they are scamming, but the primary concern is how you are secured in payment when a deal you bring is closed. Will there be a signed agreement on how and when you will be paid? Also for the JV how will the profit be split? I feel that you are bringing a deal to their laps after doing the bulk of the work. Maybe try a small trial with them and see how it goes. Something small to start it off.

    But like you said, having to pay 765 for an inspector to come out is quite odd. Do they want their own appraisal?

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Chanté Owens:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    4. Real estate is about relationships.

    Guess what my reason was for taking this great deal to this particular Joint Venture partner? Our Relationship. I have about 30 people who would have done that JV with the terms I got, but I ran it past his desk first. Why? Our relationship. I Have done many deals in the past with this investor and he's always been the easiest guy to work with, has treated me fairly and understands that our relationship is more important than any one deal.

    I appreciated this post ... immensely! It's something that we all (likely) deal with on a day-to-day basis - relationships. But an important point you made was being, "the easiest guy to work with."

    I get it. I know some may think you need to haggle someone to death, or get things on your terms, and hey, if you have the $$$ then as they say, "Cash is King." But the reality is, people really do want to work with those who are easy to work with. Plus, you were thinking long term. It wasn't just about this one deal; it was about all the rest that would (hopefully) follow - as they have. Good stuff.

     Thanks Chante' glad you liked it.

    It it's totally about the long term. Never about the 1 deal.

    I've seen a lot of investors blow deals up for $500 or $1,000. Makes no sense to me. They are so tunnel visioned into getting every penny for that particular deal that they loose focus on the fact that if you blow a deal up for $500 or $1,000 a couple times you now have a reputation.

    With this reputation you have lost all chances of having that super deal that does not come around very often come across your desk.

  • Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 51 votes
    11y

    What a great thread.  @James Wiseyou could not have said it better!  Relationships are key!!  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

      Hey you can't butter up your partner !!   just thinking about those fried Rueben rolls !

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed

      Hey you can't butter up your partner !!   just thinking about those fried Rueben rolls !

     They are good my man.....they are good.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @James Wise

      I have no business interest in Cleveland but I am going to go there just for those :)

    on the subject the OP sent me the JV agreement

    and its a modified HML deal with a pref return to the HML that is placed on the property then they take 50% of the deal after paying hardmoney rates.. ERGO you need big spread to make it work.. and If I was the lender I would do the same.

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 78 votes
    11y

    Our company JV's with experienced rehabbers...

    we fund the 100% purchase and rehab, they pay for points and interest and closing costs, then split the equity 50/50

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Manuel Angeles  well thats one way to do it... although pretty heavy profit on your side

    charging points and interest PLUS 50% of profit.  

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