Purchasing "subject to" protections for buyers and sellers

Purchasing "subject to" protections for buyers and sellers

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes

I’m looking at purchasing a property in Minnesota and it may be possible to buy it subject to the existing mortgage. I have done a bit of searching about this on here and have not been able to find a consolidated thread on the advantages/disadvantages and protections needed for both parties in the process.

The property is unique and I would plan to have it as a long term rental as it provides good cash flow and will be even better if I can add an additional unit as planned.

I am looking to possibly do this on a small multi family property.  The owner purchased it in 2006, has a 1st mortgage between 3-4%, and a high rate 2nd mortgage on the property.  The property is in pretty rough shape and the owner would be selling it to me for his existing obligations on the property at a loss of around $60k.  We discussed me paying off his second mortgage, compensating his realtor and taking over his 1st mortgage.  The owner is 80 years old and just wants to get rid of it without needing to bring cash to the table.  

I am qualified for conventional financing, but think sub 2 has the following advantages in this case

1. I would probably pay $20-25k less down for the property by paying off his second and taking over the existing financing.  The property needs repairs so it would be better if I could have less in to put more towards repairs.

2. The existing mortgage will probably save me over $30k in comparison with my new terms factoring in the remaining maturity with the existing financing and the rate I would pay with a similar maturity.

3. I would be able to avoid standard financing costs/closing costs for the deal-not a huge deal.

4. I could probably close faster

5. If I do not refinance down the road to conventional financing, it will eventually allow me to purchase one more property in this manner before hitting the limit of 10 with conventional financing.

I have never done a subject to deal before so I am not exactly sure how it will work on both ends.  Before getting too far in, I would validate the existing obligations and contact a local title insurance company to get a title policy on the property.  If things look ok, my thought is to proceed with the following to complete the transaction:

1. Contract for deed discussing the terms signed/notarized by both parties.  I am assuming I would file this with the county but would like to get thoughts on if I should file right away or not.  

2. I could possibly take over the insurance the seller uses, but he is paying too much so I would look at getting my own insurance with us both as insured parties and the bank as the loss payee.  Think there might be a problem with this if the bank gets the new insurance binder?

3. I would pay a local RE attorney to draft a contract protecting my interest in the transaction.  

4. I would look into getting a signed RE POA for the property so I can act on behalf of the current owner. Is this needed?

5. I would make the payments directly to the mortgage company and would either have the statements mailed to me or see what I would need to do to get online access to review the account.

In looking online, I see a few other strategies such as deeding the property to a land trust where the buyer would be the beneficiary and some people discussing the transaction with the bank and being open about it.  Below is an article that I thought covered some most of the bases, but I have no way of knowing if it is good advice or not since I have not done it.  

http://www.groco.com/readingroom/realestate_subjec...

Any advice on doing the deal subject to or can you think of anything else I should consider in relation to buying this way?

Does anyone have some example forms or documents I might want to use for this process if it works out?

Thanks!

James

0Reply
76 views

Most Popular Reply

Robert GilstrapPro Member
Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
8y

@Franklin Romine  Being an "additional insured" is worthless if you own property on a  subject to. That only gives you legal protections in the event of a general liability claim. If the house burns to the ground you need to be a "named insured" on the insurance policy.  To do that you just need an insurance person who understands subject to's. Keeping a policy in the sellers name is not smart since it doesn't cover you the owner.  If you have trouble figuring out how to do insurance call me.

See this reply in the discussion

27 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. I went to a presentation about all the ins and outs of owner financing.  The presentation was put on by an attorney that specializes in this exact transaction.  I'm sorry I don't remember the attorney's name, but it was put on by Midwest REA.  The one run by the owner of Homestead Road.  I bet you can contact them to get his contact.  Just tell them you were at the REA meeting but couldn't find the attorney's business card.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks @Tim Swierczek!

    By chance, is the homestead road the real estate firm located in the twin cities area?  

    I have not heard of them or the Midwest REA unless the midwest REA is MNREIA.  I am a member of that but have not done anything with them due to my schedule.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Provo, UT · Member since 2013 · 689 posts · 511 votes
    8y

    "Subject To" is an extremely sexy topic - but it's also an incredibly difficult deal to pull off. Dramatically more difficult than wholesaling to or from a stranger.  And as you've outlined above, there are several ways to do something like this.  Many are legal, some are probably not so legal, some are probably specifically prohibited - so for sure you need to speak with an attorney about your strategy before you dive in.

    If my memory serves me right, it's what armando built his first guru program on - maybe it was his hair, or his smug attitude, or it was just him... but everything about the "subject to" thing rubs me the wrong way.

    The entire concept, i believe, really is way beyond a basic or straight-forward deal, and also puts your client in a fairly precarious position where the note could get called at basically any moment, and if they can't pay off the note (which they can't, hence the agreement to the subject to) they just defaulted and are now facing foreclosure - In fact, I witnessed this exact situation today on a $12mil note that got called in UT county.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Tim Swierczek:

    @James W. I went to a presentation about all the ins and outs of owner financing.  The presentation was put on by an attorney that specializes in this exact transaction.  I'm sorry I don't remember the attorney's name, but it was put on by Midwest REA.  The one run by the owner of Homestead Road.  I bet you can contact them to get his contact.  Just tell them you were at the REA meeting but couldn't find the attorney's business card.

    Tim, I'm curious: when you "went to a presentation about all the ins and outs of owner financing", what was their (upselling) angle? ie. What couldn't you have otherwise learned by reading articles like the one linked by James?

    And james, I don't know that there will ever be a way to avoid the (due on sale) risk being there.

    Good to know that your finances can cope if and when the banks start calling in those ones.

    Also, "deeding the property to a land trust where the buyer would be the beneficiary" comes with its own risks, if you're paying the Seller directly rather than the actual Lien Holder/s! My 2c...

  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @James W. Yes homestead road is a real estate investment company similar to Homevestors, the "We buy ugly homes" folks.  They advertise on the radio.  Midwest REA has no affiliation to MNREIA.  It's a smaller meet up mostly designed to serve the needs of the homestead road owners.  I just found the invite for the meeting in my email.  Here is the text of the invite:

    Midwest REIA is excited to present Marvin Liszt of Bernick Lifson, P.A.

    Marvin has been in practice over thirty years with an expertise in complex real estate law, including the negotiation, documentation and closing of complex financing, acquisition, development, leasing and sale transactions. His clients include owners, developers, purchasers, borrowers, lenders, property managers, landlords and tenants of commercial properties, strip malls, shopping centers, restaurants, office buildings, apartment buildings, hotels, senior housing and assisted living facilities, condominiums, cooperatives, resort conversions, golf courses, and residential developments. In addition, he represents property owners in connection with condemnation proceedings, real property tax appeals, and zoning and land use issues.

    Marvin has also developed an expertise in outdoor advertising and has been involved for many years in issues critical to that industry. He represents media owners in outdoor advertising lease and land acquisitions, first amendment issues, and federal, state and local regulation matters. Marvin has spoken nationwide on various issues relevant to this industry.

    Good Luck

    ~Tim

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the help!  I know of Homevestors but somehow have never heard of homestead road.

  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @James W.   the whole premise behind why subject-to's are so awesome is that they stem from a sellers extreme motivation in not wanting a property anymore. You stated that the seller would lose money if he sold traditionally so you are offering a valuable alternative here. Why would you pay off his existing second as a condition of sale if you don't have to? You already said the property needs work so focus on the cash that is going to take first and worry about paying off the second when you have it cash flowing.  I would have to know more before I agreed to pay the agent as well since in this case he has a property that isn't going to sell at all (agent or not) so paying the agent something small to go away (like $500) may be the way out.

    Do not do a contract for deed! Get the deed in your name from the jump and yes you absolutely need a limited POA.

    I've done dozens of subject to deals and it's really the only way I buy due to the huge advantages that exist but there is a lot of things that can vary depending on the circumstances that would take too long to discuss via bigger pockets so feel free to reach out if you want some direction and I can provide you with the forms I use.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Robert Gilstrap

    The only way the seller will do the deal is with the second paid off.  Paying off the second will still get me a smaller down payment than conventional financing, but even if he would have carried the second, I would have wanted to pay it off as it is at 8.75%.  The property would cash flow fine with both, but will works better this way.

    The house is a MLS deal and I'm not sure there is a way to cut the realtor out as the realtor is a friend of the owner and I do not have direct contact with the owner. Everything has been through the realtor and he would be doing it at a discounted rate though.

    My thoughts were to do a contract for deed and a quit claim deed, but I guess it doesn't make too much sense since I can't file both. 

    I will be in touch later this afternoon.  

    Thanks!

  • Accountant · West Melbourne, FL · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 7 votes
    8y
    James Woodrich is there a way you can make payments on the realtors commission rather than on lump sum in the beginning?
  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @James W.  If you haven't been in contact with the seller then you don't know what he'll do regarding the 2nd, you're just going on what an agent told you which is a mistake.  If someone is motivated enough to sell subject to then you should be calling the shots, not them. If they aren't that motivated then they aren't a good candidate. I also didn't mean to "cut out" anybody just saying you can strike a deal that is FAR below a standard commission or even have the seller pay it themselves as part of the deal if they want you to buy it.

    BTW you NEVER use a quit claim deed when buying anything, ever. ALWAYS a warranty deed. You also never buy on a contract for deed unless you want to get screwed. 

  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    8y
    I like subject to’s. The last property I purchased with a subject to had a 10 year old 30 yr mortgage, 60% Ltd, occupied with a tenant and the loan was delinquent. I caught the loan up and gave seller a little cash. Mark sure when you get authorization to speak to lender that the authorization is full access, meaning you can speak to the lender regarding statement mailing address, insurance, impound account, etc. Lenders are usually very specific. For insurance it’s best you get the quote and pay it for the borrower, and be an additional insured. Frank
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Robert Gilstrap:

    @James W.  If you haven't been in contact with the seller then you don't know what he'll do regarding the 2nd, you're just going on what an agent told you which is a mistake.  If someone is motivated enough to sell subject to then you should be calling the shots, not them. If they aren't that motivated then they aren't a good candidate. I also didn't mean to "cut out" anybody just saying you can strike a deal that is FAR below a standard commission or even have the seller pay it themselves as part of the deal if they want you to buy it.

    BTW you NEVER use a quit claim deed when buying anything, ever. ALWAYS a warranty deed. You also never buy on a contract for deed unless you want to get screwed. 

    ++ to All of this.

    No CFD, no QCD, limited agent comp and I would add, if you are going to satisfy the 2nd, get a 30+% discount. Make them aware of how underwater and unscured they are.

    Nice to hear a broker and Pro giving it to us straight for a change. Thank you, Robert!

  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @Franklin Romine  Being an "additional insured" is worthless if you own property on a  subject to. That only gives you legal protections in the event of a general liability claim. If the house burns to the ground you need to be a "named insured" on the insurance policy.  To do that you just need an insurance person who understands subject to's. Keeping a policy in the sellers name is not smart since it doesn't cover you the owner.  If you have trouble figuring out how to do insurance call me.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the info @Robert Gilstrap and @Franklin Romine.

    I have never bought on a contract for deed, but I have sold on one.  

    I found the MN Warranty Deed form so I will use that.  It looks the same as the quit claim deed form but just says warranty deed where the other says quit claim.  If it works out, I have an attorney I will have help with the agreement.

    The seller will be losing $60k on what he paid for it in 2006.  He just wants to walk away without bringing cash to the table.  The property does have good cash flow and he does make money on it each month so he may not be as motivated as some.  

    Do you think there would be any risk in the seller reaching out to his bank to discuss the situation or would it be best to just try to keep them out of it?  I have seen some discuss involving the bank and others just trying to hide it.

    I am hoping to do my final inspection of the property this weekend so hopefully things will check out and we can get something to work.

  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @James W.  what would reaching out to the bank accomplish? Complete waste of time in my opinion but there are a lot of variables unknown to me.

  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Robert Gilstrap:

    @Franklin Romine  Being an "additional insured" is worthless if you own property on a  subject to. That only gives you legal protections in the event of a general liability claim. If the house burns to the ground you need to be a "named insured" on the insurance policy.  To do that you just need an insurance person who understands subject to's. Keeping a policy in the sellers name is not smart since it doesn't cover you the owner.  If you have trouble figuring out how to do insurance call me.

     Thanks.  I will look into that and get it corrected.  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Robert Gilstrap I have heard of some people trying to hide the transaction from the bank and others being open with the bank about the process.  I can't imagine the bank would be willing to allow this to happen especially to a low rate loan so I was unsure why it is the case.  

    Wouldn't the bank be tipped off when they see a new insurance policy coming in with me listed as the insured?

  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @James W.  I can assure you that no bank on Earth is going to allow you to just step in and take over the note with their blessing so why waste your time? To answer about the insurance question the answer is no because you will be sending them an accord form binder showing coverage as follows:

    named insured line:   the existing owners name - ATIMA

    line right below that: your entity name 

    ATIMA  "As their interests may appear"  

    again, you need an insurance person who understands sub-to's to make sure thing go smoothly.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Robert Gilstrap You keep saying he needs an insurance person to understands these transactions, would that be you?  If you are not licensed to sell in MN do you know a person or national company who understands these?

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    If it matters, I was initially planning on using nreig for insurance on it as it is half of what State Farm wants since they only insure on replacement as opposed to the actual value of the property.  I really only need it for a catastrophe anyways.  

  • Robert GilstrapPro Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Cartersville, GA · Member since 2015 · 575 posts · 581 votes
    8y

    @John Woodrich   not saying he needs me for anything; I'm thinking long term, the next subject to deal, etc. he needs someone who understands them or he will run into problems over and over. I can get him coverage for that state but I'm not trying to sell him insurance. You may have to ask around at some investor groups to see who has done plenty of Subject to's in order to get a recommendation. If you can't find one then call me and we can add the property to our master policy. 

    @James W.  Just verifying what you are saying here but what you want is full replacement cost insurance on your properties not actual cash value. Remember ACV only pays the depreciated price of a property not what it costs to replace it. That may work for some people but to me that's crazy. If the house burns to the ground I need enough $$ to actually replace that asset and put me back like I was before the incident.  ACV doesn't do that. 

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    @Robert Gilstrap This is a unique property in a smaller town. If the building were to go up in flames, I would just take the cash and walk away. It wouldn't make sense to rebuild in that area and I really don't care to pay another $3,000/yr on insurance to carry insurance a lot higher than I would need to walk away and be whole. The nreig quote I got was half of the state farm quote and it is for more than the FMV of the property. Since it is in a smaller town, I don't foresee any major appreciation in this property over time with the exception of me adding an additional unit to get me a 40% COC return. Maybe I didn't fully understand the quote discussion with nreig, but I was supposed to get the quote emailed last week but I have not received the written quote yet.

    I will be inspecting the property in detail this weekend.  If I decide to continue with the deal, I will get in touch early next week to get a quote from you and to see if you have any tips on structuring the deal to protect myself.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Blair Poelman:

    "Subject To" is an extremely sexy topic - but it's also an incredibly difficult deal to pull off. Dramatically more difficult than wholesaling to or from a stranger.  And as you've outlined above, there are several ways to do something like this.  Many are legal, some are probably not so legal, some are probably specifically prohibited - so for sure you need to speak with an attorney about your strategy before you dive in.

    If my memory serves me right, it's what armando built his first guru program on - maybe it was his hair, or his smug attitude, or it was just him... but everything about the "subject to" thing rubs me the wrong way.

    The entire concept, i believe, really is way beyond a basic or straight-forward deal, and also puts your client in a fairly precarious position where the note could get called at basically any moment, and if they can't pay off the note (which they can't, hence the agreement to the subject to) they just defaulted and are now facing foreclosure - In fact, I witnessed this exact situation today on a $12mil note that got called in UT county.

    NO offense to Armando or anyone else but my dad was doing sub too and wraps in the early 70s.. :)  he had a company called California Wrap even.. and it was those transactions and many other Ca investors like my dad that then created the All inclusive Deed of trust.. to facilitate sub too in a much safer manner.. its a great document folks should google it.. its what we use to transfer title in CA on a wrap or sub too.  I did my first wraps in the early 80s as a new agent in CA...

    Sub too is really dangerous for the seller if not done correctly.

    on a commercial mortgage like this the possibility  of it getting called is quite a bit higher than on the other resi type loans  

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 353 posts · 223 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the input @Jay Hinrichs.  I have been looking at wrap around mortgages online the last few weeks in my Sub to searches, but was wondering if there is a benefit of doing this.  

    One of the things I don't necessarily like about it is that I would need to trust that the current owner makes his monthly payment unless the agreement would state I remit the payment to the financial institution.  I think it would be easier for me to just make it to the bank to ensure it is remitted.  

    I'm assuming we would be dealing with the same insurance issues as well correct?  It did sound like the realtor thought the owner could just continue his insurance with me making the payment, but that would be concerning in case something did happen as i would not be the person listed as insured.

    Another thing to consider in this is that the seller is 80 years old and I believe there is likely 18-19 years left on the current note terms.  If he doesn't make it to term, I will need to figure out how that might impact things as well.  I don't plan to get into a position where I wouldn't be able to get it financed, but if the note does somehow get called, I believe I will be able to refi with new terms.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    James you should really good AITD  and look at and read that deed it covers all your concerns.  Not sure if they are used in your state though.. but its a Darn fine deed..

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.