Dept of Social Services wants Payment

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Gregory Rubinstein:
Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Why do you care if SS wants money from some dead guy.


 Because I am his heir

 Is it possible this is medicaid/medicare that is trying to get these funds, and not SSI. Before medicaid/medicare provides things like private nursing or a nursing home, any individuals personal assets need to be exhausted. The only way for this not to happen for instance is for property to be transferred 5 years prior to receiving these services.

To me this sounds like a claw back for the personal aid, which is expected.

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    Umm if someone was cashing checks sent to a deceased person (won’t even get into the legalities of that) then yes of course they can get that money back. Money was for the deceased person and they were not spending it.

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    This is a good one. What can be done about it is - whoever benefited from receiving the money (otherwise known as theft) - can arrange to pay it all back....

    0Reply
  • Sergey A. Petrov
    Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes
    4y

    The demand is not for payment, it is for the return of whatever money someone should not have received or kept. 

    0Reply
  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y

    The demand is for payment because the deceased, while he was alive, was receiving public assistance.

    0Reply
  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    Umm if someone was cashing checks sent to a deceased person (won’t even get into the legalities of that) then yes of course they can get that money back. Money was for the deceased person and they were not spending it.

    That's not the case though. They want like ~500K because he was receiving public assistance for 10 years before he passed away. I have never heard of such thing, especially that the guy was on SSI...
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  • Sergey A. Petrov
    Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes
    4y

    Not enough context here… fraudulent qualification for benefits/assistance where the deceased never actually truly qualified to begin with? Sure the government wants the money back. It is no different than someone stealing something and then selling it to someone else. That property / stolen thing does not belong to the buyer because the seller never had legal rights to it and could not sell it. Still not a payment. A payment is for services rendered or goods provided. It sounds like the benefits weren’t “legal” so should not have been disbursed and need to be returned. Again not enough context here…

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  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:

    Not enough context here… fraudulent qualification for benefits/assistance where the deceased never actually truly qualified to begin with? Sure the government wants the money back. It is no different than someone stealing something and then selling it to someone else. That property / stolen thing does not belong to the buyer because the seller never had legal rights to it and could not sell it. Still not a payment. A payment is for services rendered or goods provided. It sounds like the benefits weren’t “legal” so should not have been disbursed and need to be returned. Again not enough context here…

     He did qualify and was receiving SSI. Then, about 10 years ago they provided a home attendant for him, who helped with some chores, I guess, and now that he passed away the Dept. of Social Services is requesting payment because the deceased was receiving public assistance. The problem I have with this is that there are so many people who receive SSI (lawfully), and I never heard of someone requesting them or their children to pay back the public assistance. By the sound of it, Public Assistance seems to be like charity, and therefore shouldn't have to be paid back once the recipient passes away, imho. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

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  • Sergey A. Petrov
    Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes
    4y

    I think you need an expert help here. Quick online search says overpayments do happen, typically as a result of failing to report some change in circumstances that affects eligibility. Once discovered by SSA, it gets adjusted and a request for refund of the overpayments is issued. It sounds like it wasn’t “discovered” until the person passed? Maybe because additional forms and documents were submitted for the death benefit? Speculating… 10 years and $500k sounds like a stretch. One would think there is some sort of a statute of limitations?

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  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:

    I think you need an expert help here. Quick online search says overpayments do happen, typically as a result of failing to report some change in circumstances that affects eligibility. Once discovered by SSA, it gets adjusted and a request for refund of the overpayments is issued. It sounds like it wasn’t “discovered” until the person passed? Maybe because additional forms and documents were submitted for the death benefit? Speculating… 10 years and $500k sounds like a stretch. One would think there is some sort of a statute of limitations?


     I am not sure... Never had to deal with this kind of stuff before... To me it's unimaginable that they would require every SSI recipient who had a home attendant to reimburse for their services once they pass away... It's public assistance, it's not a loan or something...

    0Reply
  • Sergey A. Petrov
    Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes
    4y

    I am in Seattle. A few years ago, the City found an error in the way the City calculated pension to some, now retired, police department employees and overpaid. This went on for several years. And then it had to be repaid back by the retirees. Look it up, it was a huge story, I don’t recall all the details now. 

    As a fellow citizen I emphasize with the situation. As a taxpayer, I want the government to be held accountable and not waste my tax dollars. Mistakes happen. I can see myself on both ends of the situation. Part of me wants to say your mistake, you deal with it even if it is at the expense of other taxpayers (that’s what budget contingencies are for). And another part of me wants to say I, myself, should’ve known what I was actually due before cashing those checks.

    Sorry you are in the middle of this!

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    4y

    Why do you care if SS wants money from some dead guy.

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  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Why do you care if SS wants money from some dead guy.


     Because I am his heir

    1Reply
  • Vicky L.
    Investor · Simi Valley, CA · Member since 2019 · 46 posts · 35 votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I've heard that those receiving in-home assistance from the state accrue some kind of bill that the state will take out of the person's estate when they pass. Heirs get the leftovers. My dad went to a vet home and paid 55% of his SS income. He was accruing a big bill for the difference in what he was paying and for the actual cost of his care. He had no estate so the debt died with him.

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  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Vicky L.:

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I've heard that those receiving in-home assistance from the state accrue some kind of bill that the state will take out of the person's estate when they pass. Heirs get the leftovers. My dad went to a vet home and paid 55% of his SS income. He was accruing a big bill for the difference in what he was paying and for the actual cost of his care. He had no estate so the debt died with him.


     does it mean that if the deceased's property costs less than what the SS wants that's all they would get?

    0Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Gregory Rubinstein:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Why do you care if SS wants money from some dead guy.


     Because I am his heir

     Is it possible this is medicaid/medicare that is trying to get these funds, and not SSI. Before medicaid/medicare provides things like private nursing or a nursing home, any individuals personal assets need to be exhausted. The only way for this not to happen for instance is for property to be transferred 5 years prior to receiving these services.

    To me this sounds like a claw back for the personal aid, which is expected.

    [email protected]301-893-4635Podcast Guest on Show #192
    District Invest Group545 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    2Reply
  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:
    Quote from @Gregory Rubinstein:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Why do you care if SS wants money from some dead guy.


     Because I am his heir

     Is it possible this is medicaid/medicare that is trying to get these funds, and not SSI. Before medicaid/medicare provides things like private nursing or a nursing home, any individuals personal assets need to be exhausted. The only way for this not to happen for instance is for property to be transferred 5 years prior to receiving these services.

    To me this sounds like a claw back for the personal aid, which is expected.


     The letter said it was for public assistance in the form of Medicaid that he was receiving starting in 2012, but the thing is that he also was receiving SSI and consequently had medicaid prior to 2012...

    0Reply
  • Vicky L.
    Investor · Simi Valley, CA · Member since 2019 · 46 posts · 35 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Gregory Rubinstein:
    Quote from @Vicky L.:

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I've heard that those receiving in-home assistance from the state accrue some kind of bill that the state will take out of the person's estate when they pass. Heirs get the leftovers. My dad went to a vet home and paid 55% of his SS income. He was accruing a big bill for the difference in what he was paying and for the actual cost of his care. He had no estate so the debt died with him.


     does it mean that if the deceased's property costs less than what the SS wants that's all they would get?


     I suppose so but I'm not an expert in this.

    0Reply
  • Matt Bishop
    Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 88 votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein, does this, in some way, have something to do with real estate investing? Did you take money that doesn't belong to you?

    1Reply
  • Matt Bishop
    Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 88 votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein, yes, I think it is perfectly legal for anyone to demand anything they want to demand. Government agencies can demand whatever they want. Doesn't mean they are going to get it. Why would you think any government agency would be in violation of the law by demanding something, anything?

    0Reply
  • Matt Bishop
    Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 88 votes
    4y

    No it's not legal for them to demand anything from anybody and they should be sternly admonished! The more polite thing for them to do is ask nicely. You catch more bears with honey than you do with vinegar. Why don't you write them a letter explaining how Americans treat each other with respect and civility.

    0Reply
  • Matt Bishop
    Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 88 votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I have two answers; yes, I think so and no, maybe not. Pick the one you like best and you can tell em, I said so!

    1Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    SSI is not Medicaid or Medicare. Medicaid and Medicare have spend down and claw back provisions. In my state the state puts a lien on your house so that you don’t have to sell immediately but can stay in it while receiving care (nice on their part). But the lien has to be paid off at death. If there were other assets that should have been spent down but weren’t, the government can claw back from heirs which it typically does before it forecloses on any house liens. Less costly and you keep your home. 

    Of course it’s legal. Why should the rest of us subsidize you?

    1Reply
  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @Matt Bishop:

    @Gregory Rubinstein, does this, in some way, have something to do with real estate investing? Did you take money that doesn't belong to you?


     it has to do with real estate of the deceased person. I never had to deal with these issues before, and was very surprised when I received a letter from DSS where they requested a payment of almost half million because the deceased "received public assistance in the form of medicaid". And the thing is, they only want it for the 10 years prior to his passing, even though he had it longer than that, since he was 84 at the time of passing... This is confusing, to say the least.

    0Reply
  • David M.
    Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I just saw this article:  https://thehill.com/opinion/he...  Perhaps this is your situation?  The deceased person was using Medicaid for long term care.  Now, they are going after the estate for repayment .

    I know its a "thing" to get all your assets out of your name towards the end of life to qualify for Medicaid.  I guess this is their way of going after those people who have hid their assets away and collect on the estate.

    0Reply
  • Gregory Rubinstein
    OP
    United States · Member since 2021 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    Quote from @David M.:

    @Gregory Rubinstein

    I just saw this article:  https://thehill.com/opinion/he...  Perhaps this is your situation?  The deceased person was using Medicaid for long term care.  Now, they are going after the estate for repayment .

    I know its a "thing" to get all your assets out of your name towards the end of life to qualify for Medicaid.  I guess this is their way of going after those people who have hid their assets away and collect on the estate.


     That's not the case here. The deceased did not have anything to hide. He did not break any laws. His appartment was converted to co-op by the building administration without even asking him a few years ago.

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