Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 5 votes
Well - let's hope this isn't too complicated.
I just acquired a large parcel in Sacramento, CA that is adjacent to several houses in a subdivision. Many of the houses have gates in their fences that open onto my property. Earlier this week, I caught a neighbor actually cutting down trees on my property! He has clearly done it several times before. The trees weren't diseased, he just didn't like them. Of course, I asked him to stop. My property has been badly neglected for several years, so neighbors probably are used to coming and going (it's 3 acres), but I would like this to stop. There are no fewer than 11 gates that open onto my property. (Don't worry, the trees were big oleander bushes and not the fabulous heritage oaks, but still....)
Would like any lawyerly advice on this topic. I know I need to act quickly. I have only owned the property for 4 weeks, so this is a new issue and I don't want to sit on it. I also don't want the neighbors doing any more damage nor do I want them to be accessing my property.
Any advice from attys in California or those familiar with situations like this?
I can't help you with legal advice as I am not a lawyer and I am in PA, not familiar with CA law. Here is some neighborly advice instead.
I would not make my first move to be calling a lawyer. I would give my new neighbors the benefit of the doubt that they were looking out on this unkept land next to them, that has probably been that way for a long time and getting worse, and trying to make the best of it. Maybe they thought it was open space, wild land, owner didn't care - maybe was dead, etc.
Instead, I would introduce myself to my new neighbors as the new owner of the land "next door" and talk with them about my plans for the property. I would ask them if the neighbors had used the land for anything in the past and let them know that I would be using it now and politely ask them to respect the boundaries. The gates wouldn't bother me as they can be great for transit both ways if we built a house, were living there and befriended our neighbors. Kids are great for that! The gates will be better than climbing fences.
My 2nd step would be to post "Private Property - Do not Trespass"-type signs and call the police if the neighbors do not respect the property. The police support is "free" and they can issue an order to stop the trespass. Your neighbors could end up in front of a judge after several of those citations.
Lastly, my non-legal PA advice: the lawyer might be useless. Think about your goals in a lawsuit. If it is to stop trespass, the police might be a better route as trespass is more criminal than civil. It is hard to show civil damages just from trespass. Restitution for lost tree property damage could involve a lawyer, but might be challenging if you don't have much appreciation for your lost trees (just reading into your post). You could do it yourself in small claims court and might spend more on the lawyer than you get in damages, though you could sue for legal costs too.
I'm not an attorney so this isn't legal advice, but why not go around to the neighbors and introduce yourself and let them know you just purchased the property and you'll be maintaining it going forward.
Thanks, @Derek Jones. I had thought of that and know that's an option. I will probably do that, but I would like to know what my legal standing is with regards to this "easement" that is being used. (by some, not all. And maybe even only by one).
@Chris Mason The only easement is with the County or Transit Authority for drainage on a portion of the property which runs along the edge of the property just below the fence line. No right-of-way easements or anything pertaining to accessing the property by neighbors.
@Catherine Decker - I'd check with an actual lawyer before doing anything, but my gut instinct if they refused to respect my vacant property would be to escalate it by giving them written notice and tossing a chain link fence up around the perimeter.
I can't help you with legal advice as I am not a lawyer and I am in PA, not familiar with CA law. Here is some neighborly advice instead.
I would not make my first move to be calling a lawyer. I would give my new neighbors the benefit of the doubt that they were looking out on this unkept land next to them, that has probably been that way for a long time and getting worse, and trying to make the best of it. Maybe they thought it was open space, wild land, owner didn't care - maybe was dead, etc.
Instead, I would introduce myself to my new neighbors as the new owner of the land "next door" and talk with them about my plans for the property. I would ask them if the neighbors had used the land for anything in the past and let them know that I would be using it now and politely ask them to respect the boundaries. The gates wouldn't bother me as they can be great for transit both ways if we built a house, were living there and befriended our neighbors. Kids are great for that! The gates will be better than climbing fences.
My 2nd step would be to post "Private Property - Do not Trespass"-type signs and call the police if the neighbors do not respect the property. The police support is "free" and they can issue an order to stop the trespass. Your neighbors could end up in front of a judge after several of those citations.
Lastly, my non-legal PA advice: the lawyer might be useless. Think about your goals in a lawsuit. If it is to stop trespass, the police might be a better route as trespass is more criminal than civil. It is hard to show civil damages just from trespass. Restitution for lost tree property damage could involve a lawyer, but might be challenging if you don't have much appreciation for your lost trees (just reading into your post). You could do it yourself in small claims court and might spend more on the lawyer than you get in damages, though you could sue for legal costs too.
@Chris Mason Yes, I wanted to make sure there isn't any "implied consent" or grandfathered rights etc... I would really just like to put a barrier up across each of the gates. There are 11 gates! Ack!
Hoping an attorney will see my post and respond. I don't want a hostile relationship with neighbor (s) - though I know asserting ones property rights can be a tad tricky, especially if the neighbors are accustomed to no one being there. (I am not currently living there, though I frequently on site as are several workers who are cleaning it up!)
@James Mc Ree - Love the advice. I was, in fact planning to introduce myself and talk about plans, etc. I just wanted to know where I stand legally. It's a really big property, and eleven gates seems like A LOT of access, so we'll see how it all shakes out.
Not a JD, but I kinda like the idea of putting up your own chain-link fence right on the property line. In places, your fence may prevent them opening their gates. In other places, it may even reveal enroachments.
At least go as far as having the property lines verified and stake up some strings to show where the fence would go.
Thanks, @David Dachtera! Appreciate the support. I would put up a fence, but that would be a pretty expensive approach. The property is really big. Did I mention that it's almost 3 acres?
Get the property lines surveyed , odds are some neighbors helped themselves to some extra land ( yours ) Have them stake it every 20 feet . Put up the " no trespass " signs . Some states if you paint I believe purple paint on the trees it means no trespass . Try not to start a war . But if you meet with some resistance , have signs made up . " Future site of "Deckers pig and chicken farm "
Assuming the property is a bit overgrown , have someone come in with a tractor with a bushhog , and get them to mow . A bushhog will do a rough cut , but they can cut tall grass vines and saplings up to 2 to 3 inches depending on the size of the machine .
I will assume you are going to want to subdivide and develope this property. The neighbors wont like giving up their privacy , even though their privacy is your property . Clearing and cutting what you can early gets them use to it .
Thanks, @Matthew Paul. Appreciate it. I will see about getting the property surveyed. I should do that anyway.
I am actually looking at developing the property in a way that respects nature so I might do a "pocket neighborhood" or a "Mews" style development. Am planning to rent to people with tiny houses as a way to off-set my holding costs. Property currently has a big Victorian house on it with several out-buildings - so it's a bit like a time-capsule and a village already. It's a really nice place.
Ah @David Dachtera - we don't use attorneys for closing here in California. We use title companies. I'll see about if they have any info - though I doubt it.
I just acquired a large parcel in Sacramento, CA that is adjacent to several houses in a subdivision. Many of the houses have gates in their fences that open onto my property. Earlier this week, I caught a neighbor actually cutting down trees on my property! He has clearly done it several times before. The trees weren't diseased, he just didn't like them. Of course, I asked him to stop. My property has been badly neglected for several years, so neighbors probably are used to coming and going (it's 3 acres), but I would like this to stop. There are no fewer than 11 gates that open onto my property. (Don't worry, the trees were big oleander bushes and not the fabulous heritage oaks, but still....)
Would like any lawyerly advice on this topic. I know I need to act quickly. I have only owned the property for 4 weeks, so this is a new issue and I don't want to sit on it. I also don't want the neighbors doing any more damage nor do I want them to be accessing my property.
Any advice from attys in California or those familiar with situations like this?
Catherine, you aren't likely to get a CA lawyer to give you advice for free here. There's another website where lawyers do answer questions for free, but they're hoping to get your business, of course lol. It's avvo.com.
I'm familiar with easement law, but no expert.
First, though, they'd have to sue you to enforce an easement by prescription or necessity that hasn't been recorded (easement created by long-term use, or as a way to get to their own property, which is basically not reachable by any other reasonable means). Not likely to happen here, especially since they have to open a gate to a fenced property to use it. That hardly implies permission to take it over.
Second, from my recollection of the laws, they would have to have a need to use your property to get to theirs, basically. Sounds like they're just opening gates and walking through it, but it's not necessary to get to their property (as in the only way to get there, or the only way to get there that doesn't require a 10 mile detour, etc.)
What I'd do, is but barriers up across the gates.
I probably would not go talk to the neighbors. I don't want to get into any discussions where I have to justify what I do on my property. I'd wait for them to come to me - if they ever did.
And if they did, I'd say that I was really concerned about people dealing drugs on my property, or homeless people squatting there. And you felt it was your duty to protect your neighbors from your property bringing unsavory types or creating a crime situation. Grin.
But, really, you only have to worry about a person having a right to be on your property - if they assert that right. So, put up your barriers and if they assert some right against your property, then deal with it.
I would not put up "No Trespassing" signs, myself, as that might be perceived as hostile to the neighbors. Whereas, if they try to open a gate and it just doesn't open, they might be a bit weirded out, but can't immediately jump to any hostile intention against them personally. Or, it seems less likely anyway. And trespassing signs aren't going to keep out any people who are determined to trespass anyway. And I think they almost invite people's curiosity - hmmm, wonder what's in there, if they don't want me to come inside..... lol.
Anyway, I'd just block the gates, and if anyone contacts you about it, then deal with it. I doubt they will.
@Account Closed That is super helpful. Thank you. I have the same misgivings about the signage.
I also had mixed feelings about introducing myself, though it seemed neighborly. The guy who was cutting down trees was pretty proprietary and the surrounding neighbors are pretty curious about what is going on at the "haunted house".
Anyway - so appreciate the discussion. It has helped. I would pay for "lawyerly advice". I just don't know any real estate lawyers here in CA! Was hoping to find one. If you know anyone, would love the referral.
I would agree with the gentlemen above;however, getting your property surveyed can be costly. I would recommend going to your local county recorders office and see if there has been any recorded easments on the property that has become appurtenant to the land. Although this information should have been listed in the disclosure form upon purchase of the property, it will be beneficial and will further identify your options.
As long as there isn't any weeds or branches enroaching your neighbors property, they cannot cut down any trees or things of that nature. Furthermore, going on to your property without permission is unlawful and should be handled appropriately.
There's a BP investor in Sacramento and he might have a referral for someone there. His name is Al something lol. I'll see if I can find him or maybe someone will see this and chime in. He does a lot of AirBnB and short term business rentals. In fact, maybe Al could help you find someone to keep an eye on it for you, too.
@Catherine Decker If you need a good RE lawyer, I highly recommend Peter Kline with Miller Morton Callout & Nevis. He is out of San Jose, which is not too far from you. Back when I lived in CA, he helped us quite a bit with our RE business.
Thanks, @Account Closed. I have been putting out feelers to the "Tiny House Community" as the property is perfect for a couple of them. Just the right type and I think they would do nicely as "eyes".
Yeah! Thank you, @Andrew Li ! I suppose I should have just asked for a referral in the first place. The discussion has been super helpful, though, so I'm just as glad.
You know, since that guy is acting like he has the right to go do what he wants on your property, what you might do instead of putting up signs, is send a letter to the adjoining property owners, just saying you've bought the property and want to stop the foot traffic through it, and here's your contact information, and please let them know if anyone goes onto the property, as someone's been vandalizing your plants. LOL. And to let them know you are taking steps to keep out any riffraff, by closing off the gate access.
I'm sure there would be a way to write it with more finesse, but you get the idea :-)