The New 20% Pass-Through Deduction and You

The New 20% Pass-Through Deduction and You

Accountant · Bellevue, WA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 9 votes

The IRS issued more guidance on Wed, Aug 8th on the new Sec. 199A 20% pass-through deduction. But many taxpayers are wondering does this apply to real estate activities as well.

The 20% deduction applies to Qualified Business Income (QBI) from a "trade of business." Capital gains, interest income, and dividends (except from a REIT or PTP) are explicitly not included. The proposed regs are silent as to whether a rental activity is a "trade or business" but instead relies on Sec 162. Sec 163(j)(7)(A) is pretty clear that rental income does not qualify as income from a trade or business, so for purposes of the 20% deduction my guess is it's not likely to qualify either. This also likely includes those who qualify for real estate professional treatment on their taxes (i.e. those with 750+ hours of substantial involvement in real estate).

However, there are a couple areas that may apply to those involved in real estate. The CFR 1.199A mentions:

  • “Both active and passive owners of a trade or business may be entitled to a section 199A deduction”
  • “The proposed regulations extend the definition of trade or business for purposes of section 199A beyond section 162 in one circumstance. Solely for purposes of section 199A, the rental or licensing of tangible or intangible property to a related trade or business is treated as a trade or business if the rental or licensing and the other trade or business are commonly controlled…”

So what likely qualifies?

  1. Management companies – Sometimes taxpayers with lots of rentals consider forming a separate management company. Rentals pay management fees to the management company, which operates as a normal trade or business.
  2. Some operators – Depending on the structure of a real estate syndicate, if the operator receives a management fee or guaranteed payment, then the operator would have Qualified Business Income (QBI) for taking the 20% pass-through deduction. However, profits interest, carry, capital gains, and pass-through rental income do not qualify as QBI. Also, in these instances, if the operator was taxed as a partnership or S-Corp, then there would have to be an allocation to determine the applicable amount of QBI.
  3. Real estate used in a business/self-rentals – Often business owners hold real estate used by a business in a different entity and capitalize that holding entity through a self-rental agreement between the business and holding entity. Self-rentals are subject to unique rules on net rental income and losses, but there are provisions that allow for the activities to be aggregated. So a business owner would include net rental income from the holding entity with the QBI from the business in calculating their 20% deduction under the aggregation rules.
  4. “Box 1” passive investors – Passive investors who receive a K-1 with income in Box 1 “Ordinary business income (loss)” will have QBI.
  5. Realtors and other professionals – Definitely a trade or business. However, these individuals or businesses are considered Specified Service Trade or Businesses (SSTB) and QBI from a SSTB gets phased-out for high income taxpayers.

The rules are complex and there’s a lot not even mention. Taxpayers with foreign assets, multiple businesses, prior year Net Operating Losses, or reasonable officer compensation requirements have even more complex rules involved.

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Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
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Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Natalie Kolodij  many west coast Husband and wife real estate teams will not qualify for this  shoot.

Ya if it makes you feel better as a personal services business I'm getting screwed. 

Hey tax pros- learn all about this amazing deduction you can't use!!!

...Thanks. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · MO · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 23 votes
    8y

    @Natalie Kolodij I keep my fingers crossed that they don't. But governments have a habit of finding ways to squeeze every penny out of you they can get.  

    When I was in the UK last year, I heard on the news that the British government decided that owners of rental property could no longer deduct the mortgage interest off their taxes! The reasoning behind it was because there were such huge numbers of properties being bought up by investors that it was pushing up the prices and cutting out the 'ordinary' person from being able to afford to buy a home.  They were doing it to deter investors from buying rentals.  Whether it will work, I don't know, but your mortgage interest is usually the biggest deduction you have on a rental.

    It makes me wonder if it's only a matter of time before they do something drastic like that over here, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed :-)

  • Rental Property Investor · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 113 posts · 149 votes
    8y

    Up until now, every article I've read stated explicitly that rental income qualifies for the 20% deduction. I attended two webcasts from Marcus and Millichap and they seemed quite clear that income from pass-through entities qualifies with a few noted exceptions (like certain services). 

    The Forbes article says 

    "The Section 199A deduction is available to any taxpayer “other than a corporation.” This includes:

    • Individual owners of sole proprietorships, rental properties, S corporations, or partnerships, and"

    Of course, that is the interpretation of the expert who wrote the article. 

    You can read the actual law here

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/199A

    I found no exclusion for passive income or rental income.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Rhonda Wilson:

    Up until now, every article I've read stated explicitly that rental income qualifies for the 20% deduction. I attended two webcasts from Marcus and Millichap and they seemed quite clear that income from pass-through entities qualifies with a few noted exceptions (like certain services). 

    The Forbes article says 

    "The Section 199A deduction is available to any taxpayer “other than a corporation.” This includes:

    • Individual owners of sole proprietorships, rental properties, S corporations, or partnerships, and"

    Of course, that is the interpretation of the expert who wrote the article. 

    You can read the actual law here

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/199A

    I found no exclusion for passive income or rental income.

    I attended multiple CPE and tax trainings on it as well where they assumed it would qualify- however many sources since the new Regs were released are pulling back. 

    Basically there are defending points for both sides is kind of the problem. 

    Basically a rental would be to meet the activity of a trade or business to qualify at this point. Is that an option? Sure. Is it the level most landlords operate at? It is not. 

    Do you want to be the audit case that goes to the tax court and gives us a final decision on it? That's up to you. Ultimately it's going to be a risky and VERY aggressive move to claim this on a typical rental property. 

    Unfortunately this is one of those areas where every article out earlier was like eh....it should apply to schedule E rentals. They love creating real estate exceptions because...well...the wealthy people making the rules likely own tons of real estate. 

    However when the reg clarification came out not only did it NOT provide a clear exception for rental income (the exception being that since it's not normal trade or business income, ie no self employment taxes- it will be allowed for this deduction). It did somewhat of the contrary. It explicitly only referred to ONE instance where rentals would be allowed. 

    At this point if you're a casual landlord of single family properties- it's not likely. You can't lump the aggregate time spent on all properties together for this. You need to show that you regularly engaged in a trade or business as it pertains to EACH and every property. That's going to be the bare minimum. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Natalie Kolodij - I'm pretty sure others would agree in thanking you for your professional thoughts and insights regarding this topic on multiple threads. We are fortunate to have your free opinion that would otherwise cost $100 /hour. Thank you.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Terrell Garren You're very welcome! I love BP and have gotten as much information as I've given. 

    And I haven't been $100/hour in a few years ;) 

  • Realtor · Wilmington, NC · Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 24 votes
    8y
    @Jay Hinrichs my realtors association just came out with a letter stating that the IRS just came back and said that real estate agents are not brokers and thus qualify for the 20% deduction. Besides the fact that amount of net income does not matter I didnt understand the whole we are brokers but now we aren’t brokers. All I know is we are considered service industry or something like that but I guess the firm is maybe? Why can’t they write these things so us normal people can understand it.
  • Real Estate Broker · MA · Member since 2013 · 361 posts · 297 votes
    8y

    I'm so glad Congress and the IRS have finally gotten around to making the code simpler...

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Terrell Garren:

    @Natalie Kolodij - I'm pretty sure others would agree in thanking you for your professional thoughts and insights regarding this topic on multiple threads. We are fortunate to have your free opinion that would otherwise cost $100 /hour. Thank you.

    Natalie is awesome. 

    As to $100/hr? I'm afraid not. Plan for $250 to $500.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Seth Parmelee:
    @Jay Hinrichs my realtors association just came out with a letter stating that the IRS just came back and said that real estate agents are not brokers and thus qualify for the 20% deduction. Besides the fact that amount of net income does not matter I didnt understand the whole we are brokers but now we aren’t brokers. All I know is we are considered service industry or something like that but I guess the firm is maybe? Why can’t they write these things so us normal people can understand it.

    In simple language, here it goes.

    Until the newest clarifications, the high-earning Realtors, especially brokers, were at risk of losing the new deduction. To everybody's relief, the IRS said to not worry, Realtors are safe.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Phil G.:

    I'm so glad Congress and the IRS have finally gotten around to making the code simpler...

    Wanna read something fun?

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/look-at-how-man...

    Here are a few tidbits...

    74,608-page-long federal tax code.

    The federal tax code is 187 times longer than it was a century ago

    Amazingly, in the first 26 years of the federal income tax, the tax code only grew from 400 to 504 pages.

    Most of the growth in the tax code came in the past 30 years, growing from 26,300 pages in 1984 to nearly three times that length today.

    Just you know- Keeping it simple lol

  • Specialist · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 221 posts · 160 votes
    8y

    So basically we are where we were before 199A, with sifting through the grey matter when trying to define a trade or business under 162 which doesn't define it clearly itself... but per the Supreme Court in Groetzinger, 480 U.S. 23, 35 (1987), said, “We accept the fact that to be engaged in a trade or business, the taxpayer must be involved in the activity with continuity and regularity and that the taxpayer’s primary purpose for engaging in the activity must be for income or profit.” 

    So we (Tax Pros) will need to advise our clients on the benefits of taking the 20% QBI compared to the risk from exposure that 20% deduction might create... because many will derive from the above statement that basic landlord duties fall within the definition provided above (collecting rent, qualifying tenants, bookkeeping, etc.) and I'd be hard pressed to disagree with them in a vacuum... but .... the exposure..... 

    I think my main point is that it is silly for anyone to say that it (rentals) definitively DOES or DOES NOT qualify for the 199A deduction.  Let's not cause a stir over this because there is still time for more guidance or technical corrections, etc... and even if that doesn't come down, the answer should always be "it depends" and it's different for each client.

    IMHO

  • Specialist · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 221 posts · 160 votes
    8y

    Excellent perspective here from @john hyre

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/601099-bad-news-for-buy-and-hold-residential-investors?page=2

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    @Matt Ward

    @Matt Ward, @Natalie Kolodij, @Nicholas Aiola

    It will be interesting to see if the revised Sch E accommodates 199A by including a checkbox. I bet not.

  • Specialist · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 221 posts · 160 votes
    8y

    @Michael Plaks I wasn't aware there was definitely going to be a new Schedule E - learn something new every day!  I do agree with you - probably not.  That would require them to define a TB!!

  • Nicholas AiolaBusiness Member
    CPA & Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Michael Plaks I agree. I assume there will be some checkbox on the back end of the software, where tax preparers input data. But I feel like that's asking for trouble if they put in on the face of Schedule E. 

    Aiola CPA, PLLC554 Reviews
  • Accountant / Attorney · San Juan, PR · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 171 votes
    8y

    Natalie posted the following:

    "Example: Someone owns 5 rentals that they report on their schedule E. They are all managed by a property manager. 4 are out of state. ....He won't qualify for this deduction. Definitely not a trade or business."

    I respectfully disagree.  There is existing case law for rentals outside of 162 that delegated work counts as "activity" for TB decision.   While not 162 law, the reasoning & language for that finding are identical to 162 principles.  While I have not yet looked, I'd bet dimes to dollars that I can find 162 case law in non-rental businesses where activity of others "counts".  Why would rentals be any different?

    Related issue:  The activity of a partnership is deemed to be the activity of the partners (e.g. SE taxable activity, UBIT activity, etc.).  While the IRS would surely like to be two-faced in this regard ("we only do that when it hurts the taxpayer"), the courts tend to be pretty consistent.  Why would activity of a partnership not pass-through to partner for 199A purposes?  Not an issue you brought up, but a kissing cousin to the issue I mentioned above.

    I could be wrong, not looking to "show you up".  Rather, looking to check my own thinking.  Maybe I missed something.  Let's hash it out, time permitting.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @John Hyre:

    Natalie posted the following:

    "Example: Someone owns 5 rentals that they report on their schedule E. They are all managed by a property manager. 4 are out of state. ....He won't qualify for this deduction. Definitely not a trade or business."

    I respectfully disagree.  There is existing case law for rentals outside of 162 that delegated work counts as "activity" for TB decision.   While not 162 law, the reasoning & language for that finding are identical to 162 principles.  While I have not yet looked, I'd bet dimes to dollars that I can find 162 case law in non-rental businesses where activity of others "counts".  Why would rentals be any different?

    Related issue:  The activity of a partnership is deemed to be the activity of the partners (e.g. SE taxable activity, UBIT activity, etc.).  While the IRS would surely like to be two-faced in this regard ("we only do that when it hurts the taxpayer"), the courts tend to be pretty consistent.  Why would activity of a partnership not pass-through to partner for 199A purposes?  Not an issue you brought up, but a kissing cousin to the issue I mentioned above.

    I could be wrong, not looking to "show you up".  Rather, looking to check my own thinking.  Maybe I missed something.  Let's hash it out, time permitting.

     The IRS clearly made it known in the new reg release that they will be utilizing code 162 for the purposes of the 199A deduction. 

    So making an argument based on non 162 qualifications isn't meeting the IRS' minimum standard they set forth to use for determining trade or business. 

  • Specialist · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 221 posts · 160 votes
    8y

    What is 162’s clear definition of a TB?  My understanding is that there isn’t one... so the fact they use 162 doesn’t make me feel like we’re any closer to a definition...

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matt Ward:

    What is 162’s clear definition of a TB?  My understanding is that there isn’t one... so the fact they use 162 doesn’t make me feel like we’re any closer to a definition...

     It doesn't clearly state with regard to real estate investing- so we defer to cases/ decisions pertaining to 162 and real estate activities in the past. 

    I think that jumping over to court cases related to non 162 are pretty far out of the main area of what we should consider. 

  • Specialist · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 221 posts · 160 votes
    8y

    As you know, these cordial debates are invaluable to tax pros because the Code is law, and the law can be (in some cases) interpreted many different ways.  My point has/is/and will be that this is such a grey area (as to whether or not 199A will be inclusive of rental real estate), and that each practitioner will have his/her interpretation of this because, ESPECIALLY now based off the proposed guidelines, the IRS is deferring to IRC162 to define a TB. 

    This is not different than how it was before the TCJA came out, as in many instances a TB was undefined but reference to IRC162 was advised.  

    So if a practitioner was conservative in his/her approach to rentals as a business before TCJA, then continue on.  There are those that practiced more aggressively, and a whole bunch in between.

    To my point above, which has/is/and will be (until clear guidance is given) is that it's inappropriate for us tax professionals to draw a line in the sand say "this is how the law is written, it's clear" and because of this "x, y, & z types of properties or situations will not get the QBI".  This is a grey area and tax pros, as well as their clients, have options that should be entertained based off of everyone's risk tolerance and individual tax positions.

    There is no black and white here.  No "yes" and "no" when it comes to properties, types or numbers, etc. 

  • Accountant / Attorney · San Juan, PR · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 171 votes
    8y

    Posted elsewhere as well, addresses response on 162 as well as other issues in detail.

    Natalie wrote “It's more a wave on information from someone whose business is defending things in court.”

    Dunno what a “wave on information” means. It would seem that you are attempting to dismiss what I wrote based on what I do for a living as opposed to addressing what I actually wrote. If so, you have engaged in an ad homenim approach. I hope I am mistaken – have I misunderstood what you wrote?

    For the record, about 85% of my time is spent on planning for REI and SDIRA owners. About 15% is spent in audits, Tax Court, or fighting IRS collections. I used to prepare returns. I presently do not, though I may re-engage in the future. Bottom line: I get the system and how things actually work. Not just what is written, but how things work in….practice.

    Natalie wrote: “I still think it's blindly optimistic that the IRS would qualify someone owning 1 rental as a business”

    “Blindly optimistic” …. needlessly strong words that reflect on my credibility…..or yours. Any support for them?

    While I care what the IRS “thinks”, I am much more concerned with what the law actually is. Sometimes what the law is and what the IRS “thinks” are not the same thing. If one were to limit oneself to what the IRS “thinks”, then one’s clients would not fully benefit from what the law actually permits.

    In the John D. Fackler [45 B.T.A. 708 (1941)] case, the BTA held that a (singular) rental is automatically a TB.

    The BTA ruled that “where the owner of rental property devotes it rental purposes and exclusively to the production of taxable income, the property is used by him in a trade or business”.

    On appeal, the 6th Circuit came to the conclusion that the building (rented to multiple tenants) was a TB, but they got there via different means. Instead of following a blanket rule that any single rental property is a TB, they examined the level of activity and concluded that the rental property generated enough activity to be a TB. Specifically:

    “The management of the property necessarily involved alterations and repairs…..it was also necessary to furnish elevator service, heat, light and water which required regular and continuous activity and the employment of labor, the buying of material and many other things which come within the definition of business”.

    That was on a single building. Drop out the elevator language – does that language describe what many landlords do with just one single-family rental? Why yes, it does. And note that “the employment of labor” counts. The landlord did not do everything himself.

    Let’s move to a more modern case: Balsamo (T.C. Memo. 1987-477), which involved a single-family rental. Here an interesting quote from that case:

    “Our historical position that rental of one property constitutes a trade or business establishes a general not an absolute rule.”

    Well, now, that’s interesting. The Tax Court says that the general rule is that one property constitutes a TB, but that they will look at facts & circumstances to see if the general rule should apply. Hmmm, my position that a single rental property – even a single-family – could be a TB isn’t sounding so “blindly optimistic” all of a sudden, is it?

    In this case, the taxpayer inherited a property. The court looked at her activities and stated the following (parentheticals are mine):

    “Petitioner (that is, the taxpayer) owned the premises for a very short period. Based on the incomplete and disjointed record before us, it appears that petitioner's principal activity with respect to the premises was to negotiate and carry out its sale. Petitioner's activities with respect to the premises as rental property were almost non existent. Petitioner testified that the lessee, Economopoulos, pointed out to her a dead rat, a bee's nest, and several leaks during her single visit, yet petitioner presented no evidence that she attempted to remedy these problems during her period of ownership. Petitioner testified that her brother-in-law performed various repairs on the premises on two separate occasions. However, Economopoulos, a credible and disinterested witness, had no recollection of such visits (that’s the Court’s way of saying “she is lying”), nor could petitioner produce a paid receipt for his services. She also did not deduct these expenses. She took the premises subject to the lease and let the status quo continue during her period of ownership. The foregoing would indicate that petitioner did not perceive the property as rental property, but as investment property shortly to be sold to Economopoulos.”

    In short – if she’d have had more activity, the single rental could have been viewed as a trade or business. This principle has stood since at least the 1940’s and is most unlikely to change now.

    Natalie said: “as well as qualifying someone who has all their properties managed as a business.”

    As to qualifying even though someone also manages the properties……see Gilford, 201 F.2d 735, 2nd Circuit (1953). See also Murtaugh, T.C. Memo. 1997-319. In both cases, delegated activity explicitly counted in determining that delegated activity “counted”. Murtaugh was especially fun. It involved rental of a time share via the management company that sold the time share to the taxpayers and screwed the taxpayers by renting their units (predictably) last.

    Here’s some relevant language from Gilford:

    “Although it does not appear that the * * * [taxpayer] did anything herself in connection with the management of these * * * buildings, an appreciable amount of time and work was necessarily required on the part of the managing agent. And if such management was a "trade or business," the * * * [taxpayer] was so engaged although she acted only through an agent.”

    Passive indeed.

    Here’s some language from the Murtaugh case:

    “The principle of Gilford was more recently reaffirmed by this Court in Whyte v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1986-486 n.22 ("It is well settled that where an agent is acting on behalf of an owner in managing a business, the owner is still considered to be engaged in a trade or business." (Emphasis added.)), affd. 852 F.2d 306 (7th Cir. 1988).”

    and

    “We believe the record in this case, although sparse, establishes that B'Mae's (the management company) was acting as petitioner's agent when it undertook the various activities incident to renting out the timeshares. Petitioner's (taxpayer’s) uncontroverted testimony was that B'Mae's undertook the advertising, guest registration, housekeeping, and inventory replenishment in exchange for a fee equal to 40 percent of the proceeds of any rentals. Documents in evidence substantiate this fee arrangement.”

    and (bold & underlining mine)

    “In both Grier v. United States, supra , and Balsamo v. Commissioner , supra , neither the taxpayers themselves nor their agents had been sufficiently active with respect to the real property involved to be engaged in a trade or business. In Gilford v. Commissioner, supra , the agents were actively involved in managing commercial real property, to a sufficient degree to be engaged in a trade or business. In the present case, the transient rentals of petitioners' property likewise entailed sufficient activities to constitute a trade or business, and while these activities were conducted by B'Mae's, they are attributable to petitioners for purposes of determining whether petitioners were engaged in a trade

    or business.”

    Again, that the taxpayer was “passive” did not matter. Delegation “counts” for examining activity levels.

    Natalie said: “It generates passive income…… You don't qualify as a RE pro in term of hours.”

    Code Section 469 (Passive Activity Losses) is irrelevant to TB discussion under Section 162.

    Natalie said: “You pay no self employment tax”

    Code Section 1402 (Self Employment Tax) is irrelevant to TB discussion under Section 162.

    Finally: Some of the cases I have cited decided what’s a “trade or business” under sections other than 162. So they are irrelevant, right? Not so fast.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, the term “trade or business” has been consistently used throughout the Code. The cases cite each other even when a different Code Section is involved. The reasoning does not change at all, regardless of which section is in play. The Tax Court hates making up new law and likes to borrow from existing law.

    Here’s an interesting quote from a law journal article written in 1955 (“The Single Rental as a ‘Trade or Business’ Under the Internal Revenue Code,” U. of Chi. L. Rev. 111 (1955) – talk about a relevant title.

    “The courts apparently agree that the meaning of the words "trade or business" is uniform throughout the Code provisions here considered…No court has made an explicit distinction between a "trade or business" authority under one section of the Code and another under a different section. On the contrary, the courts cite indiscriminately any case having to do with "trade or business" whether under

    Section 1221, 1231, 165 or 162.”

    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

    The above represents part of my research. I spent around 15 hours in December & January answering the question of “When are rentals a Trade or Business”.

    Whenever possible I do my homework. I do like to sometimes post to see I am full of it. Like anyone else, I am sometimes off or flat out wrong. And I appreciate being shown to be off or wrong in the spirit of informed debate and intellectual honesty. I do get peeved when people get needlessly personal or resort to unfortunate short cuts.

    I will post links to references cited as well as a few other useful cases & articles.

    Bottom line, as I stated before (and still open for logical refutation, I want to know if I am in fact mistaken):

    - Most taxpayers with 2+ rentals that are not triple-net leased should qualify as a TB

    -Many taxpayers with 1 rental that is not triple net leased may qualify

    -Delegation counts, even if the taxpayer is completely “passive”

    -Pass-through from partnerships/S-Corps/certain kinds of trust should count

  • Accountant / Attorney · San Juan, PR · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 171 votes
    8y

    Links to cases & articles:

    Fackler: https://casetext.com/case/fackler-v-commissioner-o...

    Balsamo: https://www.leagle.com/decision/198766254cutcm6081...

    Gilford: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-cou...

    Murtaugh: https://www.leagle.com/decision/199714974qtcm75113...

    Grier: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-cour...

    Chicago Law Journal Article: https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewconten...

    Other relevant reading not mentioned above:

    Anderson: https://www.leagle.com/decision/1982134944jptcm130...

    Curphey: https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Endnotes/73_TC_76...

    Alvary: https://casetext.com/case/alvary-v-united-states

    Revenue Ruling 73-522 (no link, also language is not quite the same as 162, unlike other links - but illustrative that triple net lease may be a problem)

    Good Article: https://www.taxnotes.com/tax-reform/economic-analy...

    Good Article, mentions "Kissing Cousin Issues" as one of the other posters here pointed out: https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2013/may/clin...

    Another Kissing Cousin Article: http://www.mntaxclass.com/files/RRETOB_Part_I.pdf

    Enjoy!

  • Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    I would be very cautious on the rental property-I am not convinced that rental property will not qualify for the new deduction-borrowing from Hedge Fund land -trader vs investor-it is not defined in the code and as alluded to previously trade or business under 162 goes to case law-in financial services one of the items to determine a trader-which is a better tax position (deductions not subject to AGI 2% limitation)-is regular and continuous activity-lots of trading-turning over portfolio multiple times a year

    In Real Estate World-if someone owns 6 or 7 houses and is always involved-think tenants, busted pipes, collection of rent, evictions when necessary-can you say that does not rise to the level of a trade or business-why is a grocery store any different

    I have looked around and I don't see any major commentators saying rental wont qualify unless common ownership (I did see the verbiage in the proposed reg and I think there is a different reason that was put it-something about aggregating rental with non-rental activity)

    Bottom Line-all I am saying is lets wait and see as comments are submitted to Treasury and not rule anything in or out as far as rental properties are concerned 

  • Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2015 · 249 posts · 52 votes
    8y
    @Natalie Kolodij But that individual that manages all those properties himself is NOT a real estate professional if he spends the majority of his time in another profession, for example, a Doctor. I can continue my career as an accountant and own 100 self managed properties, but as long as more of my time is spent as an accountant than managing rentals, I am not a real estate professional.
  • Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2015 · 249 posts · 52 votes
    8y
    @Natalie Kolodij IRC162
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