Do appraisers check the lot line for the subject property

Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 92 votes

Hi all,

We are in contract for a property and just discovered part of the house may sit on a separate lot owned by another party. Property is located in Gatlinburg, TN.

We just checked the county website and discovered it.

Question- does an appraisal check to make sure a house actually sits on the lot you are buying? The current owner has an appraisal that says the property is worth $X, which is impossible if part of the house is on a different lot.

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Avery CarlBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes

@Michael Chang the Sevier county tax records are terribly unreliable. Appraisers also do not check the lot line, you’d need to get a survey to check exact lot lines.

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Avery CarlBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Michael Chang the Sevier county tax records are terribly unreliable. Appraisers also do not check the lot line, you’d need to get a survey to check exact lot lines.
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John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
6y
Appraisers nor inspectors check property lines.
You would need to get property surveyed if you suspect a problem.
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Derek Tellier
Real Estate Agent · Sevierville TN · Member since 2018 · 305 posts · 224 votes
6y
@Michael Chang
The tax records show the lot line on mine cuts through my back deck.
The electronic records for these are way off in most of East TN.
Check the road around you in those records. That helps to give reference to how far off the are.
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Michael C.
OP
Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 92 votes
6y
Originally posted by @Avery Carl:
@Michael Chang the Sevier county tax records are terribly unreliable. Appraisers also do not check the lot line, you’d need to get a survey to check exact lot lines.

Thanks again. We were very excited to get the subject property under contract so this was definitely a surprise.

See image. https://imgur.com/a/lPtGS4A
Will call City planning office tomorrow but the responses here give me little confidence that this can be definitely resolved without getting a survey.
How do we message this with the seller?

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Michael C.
OP
Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 92 votes
6y
Originally posted by @Derek Tellier:
@Michael Chang
The tax records show the lot line on mine cuts through my back deck.
The electronic records for these are way off in most of East TN.
Check the road around you in those records. That helps to give reference to how far off the are.

Thanks Derek. The tax records (https://imgur.com/a/lPtGS4A) show the adjacent lot cuts through the entire back of the house, including part of the actual house, the HVAC units outside, the shed, and basically all of the backyard.
Any suggestions on how to proceed? I'm going to contact the City planning office tomorrow and the county planning office.
My instinct tells me to get a surveyor and a real estate lawyer involved...there are alot of unknowns here.
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Michael C.
OP
Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 92 votes
6y
Originally posted by @John Underwood:
Appraisers nor inspectors check property lines.
You would need to get property surveyed if you suspect a problem.

Thanks John. This is good advice. I'm always an advocate of doing the work upfront to avoid any surprises.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6y
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
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Account Closed
Specialist · OverTheRainbow · Member since 2020 · 607 posts · 909 votes
6y
Originally posted by @Michael C.:
Originally posted by @Avery Carl:
@Michael Chang the Sevier county tax records are terribly unreliable. Appraisers also do not check the lot line, you’d need to get a survey to check exact lot lines.

Thanks again. We were very excited to get the subject property under contract so this was definitely a surprise.

See image. https://imgur.com/a/lPtGS4A
Will call City planning office tomorrow but the responses here give me little confidence that this can be definitely resolved without getting a survey.
How do we message this with the seller?

The first thing you ought to do is order a title report and see if they discover any issues. Ask them if there is a lot line problem and if it has previously been resolved. All you really need is an insurable title. Then it's the title company's problem if it ever becomes an issue. I bought a house in Seattle that was built on the lot line and someone previously got it adjusted to include the required several feet for fire safety space. The property shows as on the lot line at the county but Title shows the adjustment.

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Derek Tellier
Real Estate Agent · Sevierville TN · Member since 2018 · 305 posts · 224 votes
6y
@Michael C.
It's not typical for lending or title to order a survey here. If you are concerned the only thing you can do is hire a surveyor. I don't see any reason to involve an attorney without a survey.
Again these digital maps you find online, even the "official" ones on the tax assessor website are just not accurate. Hard to truly translate lot lines on a 2D map when there terrain around here is nothing close to flat.
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Dennis Cosgrave
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 304 posts · 462 votes
6y
You need to contact the seller prior to the expiration of the inspection period. If you don't you might have bigger problems. You definitely need to get a survey done and have a real estate attorney handle this deal going forward.
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Steve Morris
Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
Question- does an appraisal check to make sure a house actually sits on the lot you are buying?
Unless it is patently obvious, no. On the PTR was there some sort of easement recorded?
If you suspect that, you may want to pay for extended title, then you can get a surveyor. Or you can hire your own.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Michael C.:
Originally posted by @Avery Carl:
@Michael Chang the Sevier county tax records are terribly unreliable. Appraisers also do not check the lot line, you’d need to get a survey to check exact lot lines.

Thanks again. We were very excited to get the subject property under contract so this was definitely a surprise.

See image. https://imgur.com/a/lPtGS4A
Will call City planning office tomorrow but the responses here give me little confidence that this can be definitely resolved without getting a survey.
How do we message this with the seller?

The first thing you ought to do is order a title report and see if they discover any issues. Ask them if there is a lot line problem and if it has previously been resolved. All you really need is an insurable title. Then it's the title company's problem if it ever becomes an issue. I bought a house in Seattle that was built on the lot line and someone previously got it adjusted to include the required several feet for fire safety space. The property shows as on the lot line at the county but Title shows the adjustment.

You have to order an Alta policy .. but looking at that plat map he linked that's a funky looking lot.. I would survey it to be sure. and what shows on county GIS websites like that are not accurate many times..

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
Russ this would be very rare in most parts of the country .. unless it was a very large commercial deal with multi million dollar ALTA policy then title will survey and guarantee lot lines.. on something like this in most areas of the country its up to the buyer to survey .. or request the seller to survey .. and with that lot layout I would for sure do that it is an Odd shaped lot.

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Steve Morris
Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.

Why would they do that? Maybe MD is different, but:

1) If there's nothing recorded on the title like an easement title won't say anything for STANDARD title since it doesn't cover stuff like that. Relying on some graphic from a county WEBsite is kinda dumb since it's probably not warrantied.

2) Buyer prob needs to pay $3K-$5K for a ALTA survey + extra (usual/cust) cost of extended title.

Looking at the picture, builder of his house prob bought one big tax lot, then did a partition with a survey aster he built (which he ignored) or easement and then built the burdened house.

I've had it happen on a 150-unit apartment when the builder sold a chunk of the existing apt lot to another builder. Got VERY lucky with a lot line adjustment since both sides were cooperative.
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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
Russ this would be very rare in most parts of the country .. unless it was a very large commercial deal with multi million dollar ALTA policy then title will survey and guarantee lot lines.. on something like this in most areas of the country its up to the buyer to survey .. or request the seller to survey .. and with that lot layout I would for sure do that it is an Odd shaped lot.

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

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Michael C.
OP
Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 92 votes
6y
Thank you everyone. Extremely helpful! Appreciate your insight and love the BP community!
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
Russ this would be very rare in most parts of the country .. unless it was a very large commercial deal with multi million dollar ALTA policy then title will survey and guarantee lot lines.. on something like this in most areas of the country its up to the buyer to survey .. or request the seller to survey .. and with that lot layout I would for sure do that it is an Odd shaped lot.

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

YUP just like Texas they survey everything.. WE dont survey lot and block as a general rule.

Like our new homes we are building NO one will survey them .. the lender though does whats called a foundation survey and we do whats called a Hub and tac lender before we get vertical draws on the construction loan wants to make sure the foundation is on the lot and in the right spot.. But buyer nope they rarely survey.. Now if its rural lands thats different.. but again most wont survey if there is a pretty good indication where the properties are located.. cost to survey rural land can run into the multi thousands and thousands

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Steve Morris
Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

Sorry, agree with Jay on existing apartments almost all the deals are with STANDARD title and no ALTA.
Only way it happens, since surveyors are like $3K and EXTENDED title is more money from buyer:
1) Lender requires it
2) New construction and a raw lot out in the country
3) Title shows an easement that buyer wants to verify
4) Obvious by inspection like fence is straight save for a zig to accommodate a building.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Steve Morris:

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

Sorry, agree with Jay on existing apartments almost all the deals are with STANDARD title and no ALTA.
Only way it happens, since surveyors are like $3K and EXTENDED title is more money from buyer:
1) Lender requires it
2) New construction and a raw lot out in the country
3) Title shows an easement that buyer wants to verify
4) Obvious by inspection like fence is straight save for a zig to accommodate a building.

$3k? Wow. Surveys here are about $250-350. Maybe $500 for a particularly large lot like over an acre.

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Steve Morris
Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
Just to clarify, that $250-$350 is for an ALTA survey? Those are more rigorous and to get EXTENDED title it needs to be ALTA.
Sounds like they just go out and verify markers?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Steve Morris:

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

Sorry, agree with Jay on existing apartments almost all the deals are with STANDARD title and no ALTA.
Only way it happens, since surveyors are like $3K and EXTENDED title is more money from buyer:
1) Lender requires it
2) New construction and a raw lot out in the country
3) Title shows an easement that buyer wants to verify
4) Obvious by inspection like fence is straight save for a zig to accommodate a building.

$3k? Wow. Surveys here are about $250-350. Maybe $500 for a particularly large lot like over an acre.

that's probably because they do them in volume.. Steve my Buyer on the Gresham 100 unit ordered an ALTA and surveyed it even though it was very apparent that there was no encroachments.. then we bought the 40 units behind it.. and that one had an OLD easement and he got that taken off took about 6 months of wrangling but title removed it.. it went right through the parking lot but previous owner and lender let it say on title.
Inner city portland with all the 25 foot lots those get surveyed .. but really nothing in the burbs in lot and block subdivisions

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Jason Routenberg
Rental Property Investor · Grants Pass, OR · Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 1 vote
6y
@Michael Chang
So, from my experience and knowledge I have accumulated, the lot lines you see are usually automatic pictures and added through the satellite. These are not accurate. Its best to get a surveyor. Tax assessors also sometimes use satelite view to automatically determine square footage of a home, but these are unreliable because of trees and possible square footage that shouldn't be calculated. They measure by the home size and roof layout on homes. A surveyor is what you need to be sure where the line is truly at. They gather the information where to measure from certain street points and or exact coordinates and go from there. This information is found with the title company and maybe the assessor.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
Russ this would be very rare in most parts of the country .. unless it was a very large commercial deal with multi million dollar ALTA policy then title will survey and guarantee lot lines.. on something like this in most areas of the country its up to the buyer to survey .. or request the seller to survey .. and with that lot layout I would for sure do that it is an Odd shaped lot.

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

Russ,
Out of curiosity do you survey those attached row houses that are so common in WA DC Balt Philly etc.. I mean if your a middle unit what is someone going to do if somehow the wall is 4 inchs out of their lot line.. ???

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Title company and lender will likely order a survey as part of clearing the title. Dont stress.
Russ this would be very rare in most parts of the country .. unless it was a very large commercial deal with multi million dollar ALTA policy then title will survey and guarantee lot lines.. on something like this in most areas of the country its up to the buyer to survey .. or request the seller to survey .. and with that lot layout I would for sure do that it is an Odd shaped lot.

that just blew my mind. I think Ive only done 2 transactions without a survey.

Russ,
Out of curiosity do you survey those attached row houses that are so common in WA DC Balt Philly etc.. I mean if your a middle unit what is someone going to do if somehow the wall is 4 inchs out of their lot line.. ???

Yup they all get surveyed too. Just part of the standard title work here. Its mostly useful for the back yard.
Interesting thing on the DC lot lines.....in much of DC (not all) the front yards and porches are not inside the lot lines. The lot lines starts at the front wall, and the porch and front yard are technically city owned property. You still have to maintain it and retain liability for it. Always freeks aome people out when they arnt expecting that on the survey if no one told them ahead of time.
also, in the suburbs at least, most of the lots are marked with steel rebarb lot markers. So they surveyora really are just locating thoose and marking them with a wooden stake. They probably do a survey on a quarter acre lot in 15 or 20 mins.

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Douglas W.
Rental Property Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 4 votes
6y
No unfortunately, a residential appraiser does measure the interior to establish the structure square footage and will pull a plat map from the county outlining the position of the structure on the lot and the dimensions of the lot per the county tax assessor where the subject property is located.
If you want to locate the location of each lot line you need a surveyor. They will locate the lot line markers for you for a fee that varies based upon how many markers you want them to identify.
Hope this helps!
Hope this helps
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