HELP! Should I stick with law school or start my life?

HELP! Should I stick with law school or start my life?

The Poconos, PA · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 9 votes

Hey Guys and Gals,

This is not your typical post on BP but, since y'all are going to be similar to me and looking at things from a financial sense I would like to hear your opinions. And a lot of you have experience with what I would eventually like to get into also.

First off, I graduated from a state university with an undergrad in Finance then decided to make the plunge into law school. Moved down to North Carolina and am currently a 1L law student. Took out a 25k graduate loan that has a 6.9% interest rate that is accruing from the moment taken out, even while in school and now I am scared.

Law school is okay, I am top 30% in my class which is okay, but the debt concerns me. As you all know lawyers are a dime a dozen. The market is saturated and I am seeing that even for an "unpaid internship" the market is competitive! It disgusts me. I am questioning whether I made the right financial choice and have plans to finish my 1L year and move on with my life.

At the end of the day I do things as most of you that benefit me financially and will make my life more comfortable. Multiple people and attorneys told me to be weary of law school but I said, "no I will be the exception" and get those high paying jobs. Now I am thinking I may have made a mistake.

I guess I was hoping if any of you are attorneys or have experience with them in real estate what you thought or recommend? Just trying to learn from people's experience that have gone through what I am doing and what others can see.

Thanks in advance!

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Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y

Same basic concerns of a burned out biology engineering student last night, after discussions he has decided to bite the bullet and finish school. Which is what I'd suggest you do too.

Along with Andrew's comment as to work and go to school, a couple options maybe.

You might really dislike the military, but you'd be a JAG Officer out of school, you'll be an O3 by the end of a year, hang around into year 4 you'll be an O4, not sure what the pay scale is but I'll bet is better than most firms starting off. Just to set you at ease, JAGs are not out in the field as seen on TV, you're at a Division level (Army) or higher, not many bullets fly in that area. Then get out with bills paid and hang your shingle out.

Look to government. If your finance degree had 12 hours or more that qualifies as an accounting major, look to regulatory agencies in banking FDIC, Treasury, Fed, and even the CFBP (who has a great pay schedule) would allow you to work and finish school. Finance is the key to the door of RE, any type of RE.

I know several attorneys well, all are successful in their practice. I know of many more. One comes to mind in family law that I doubt he can afford new shoes to go to court, that or he's very thrifty. I hired an attorney full time with about 5 years out for, well, I better not say, but a GS 9 or an O2 in the military would make more.

No degree of any kind will make you wealthy, it only opens the door to opportunities of a better quality of life, financially and socially. What you do with it is up to you and a law degree opens about any door in business.

You won't be walking into an institution as an underwriter where you are right now, you're about two years out if you got in the right position starting as a loan officer. You might get into compliance to train, that's another alternative in a larger bank. Neither are exciting nor are you overpaid. What you get is experience that you can adopt in your own business.

Obviously you had a goal, so now the question is, what are you made of? That's giving you a swift kick in the tail, employers and successful people want those who complete goals, will make things happen, regardless of the roadblocks or hardships encountered. Nothing will be handed to you, unless you have a wealthy family, you will have to work hard and make sacrifices to succeed, that's part of success, the fight getting there. When you are my age will you be able to truthfully say that you did everything you could to be what and who you wanted to be?

I'd say finish the cheapest way you can. Unless your heart lies in corporate law in a large firm or getting into politics, the license is the goal, not trying to set yourself up with old college buddies. Most likely, your social network will be local in your area of operations. While I know folks nationally, they don't really impact RE in my area and really never had to call on them as all RE is local. If you go into a planning and zoning hearing it won't matter one bit if you went to Harvard or if you went to night school at some state school. Old school buddies aren't likely to influence your building department or your city council in getting what you need, unless they are on city council. RE is political and any law degree can open that door.

It's impossible for you to measure the opportunity costs of your choice, but I think you may be overvaluing the jobs you might get now and undervaluing the value of your future as an attorney or having a JD. Three of the largest developers in this area are/were attorneys. Three others are attorneys who are in home developments and custom homes. They are all self made multi millionaires, and really, they ain't that brilliant, but they do have the gonads to go after goals and make things happen.

My crystal ball says finish school, one way or another, succeed! Your worst enemy is often yourself. :)

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  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    @Steve Hyduchak

    I didn't see on the thread but are you at UNC Chapel Hill or somewhere else? I think law school ranking makes a huge difference in job opportunities however I would stick out school on your end either way and push to get a good paying firm job. Having money and income makes real estate way better in the beginning. It's always easier to transition out of law after you are established in real estate but somewhat harder to do it the other way around. Whatever funds you think you need to start investing in real estate just double or triple it. Education has so many benefits especially when you are committed to learning the curriculum. Law will only help you in real estate in the future.

    My fiancé is finishing law school at the University of Chicago this year and her education was worth every penny of the 55-60k year she paid. It helps being a top 5 school however it sounds like you have a good background in finance which should help with job prospects.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Steve--

    I did one year of law school before dropping the JD part of the JD/MBA program and just finishing my MBA. However, I was at a top 10 school, which meant greater career options than had I not been at a top tier school. Like it or not, in law, brand name matters if you want to do something besides personal law. The other escape hatch would be law review to potentially differentiate yourself. Networking like mad would help too.

    When I was faced with the decision of whether or not to continue law school, I did an opportunity cost analysis. Would the JD help me get incrementally more income? Not unless I did M&A, VC, or private equity, and I had no desire to work 30 hours a day, 8 days a week.

    As an entrepreneur, being an attorney would have helped in contract negotiations, but not that much. Had we raised outside capital, it would have probably helped too.

    Since none of those applied, I am glad that I dropped it. I loved the study of law, but was miserable in a law library. I do wish I would have finished, but only from the perspective of having not accomplished it. Then again, if it meant *that* much to me, I could always reenroll.

    As you've made your decision, why not network like crazy with BB&T or Bank of America to get into their i-banking side? You have a finance degree and finance experience, and there's probably some RE M&A work you could do. Then, if they want you to become an attorney, they can pay for the last two years, or you could do distance education and use tuition reimbursement.

  • Investor · Yokosuka, Japan · Member since 2014 · 631 posts · 184 votes
    12y

    @Steve Hyduchak You have a tough decision to make and I applaud you for asking for help. I look at all the great food for thought and while not as eloquent or sophisticated, want to add a bit more for you to think about. @Paul Timmins

    Would you consider following Paul Timins or @Andraise Scott 's advice? Get your life “started” by investing in some good cash flowing deals, get that established so you can scale down your involvement by delegating, but only after you have learned the things you will delegate. Once that is working you could resume your “love for the law” if the love remains. Then the debt won’t hinder your commitment because you have robust income and you can tailor your law education toward benefiting your business. It could mean the best of both worlds for you. If you love the law, go for it! Depends on your beliefs, but I always find prayer for discernment to be helpful.

    I wish you a wise, regret-free decision,

    Pyrrha

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    It's definitely a personal decision. At the end of the day, you have to decide what matters the most to you. Sometimes what we think is important at a certain age becomes disregarded later in life. Both time and experience may change your perspective down the road.

    Best of luck!

  • Rantoul, IL · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    So how are things going with your decision? Have you changed your mind? You already know it would have been best to have a focus of what you wanted to do with a law degree before you jumped in, but oh well.

    I agree with what Sharon said, but I wouldn't limit it to a year. I think when you really have an application for your degree is the time to go back. I suspect that someone with an entrepreneurial bent would not be happy at a cubicle in a big law firm and, as you also know, Big Law isn't going to be looking for you - no offense intended.

    I am 50 and actually planning to go to Law School because I know specifically why I want to go. Another thing to consider is that you can do both lawyering and RE Investing in the right situation because they can be complementary. Also, 70K is not really that much considering you can still work at least part time well past ordinary retirement age if you want.

    Best of luck whatever you eventually do.

  • The Poconos, PA · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 9 votes
    12y

    Thanks for the replies and the follow up messages, @Dirk Richmond and @Rachel H.

    My decision to leave was a tough one, but I am looking forward and when I look back I am so happy I left. I was going to a sub-tier law school accumulating bad debt. It was so wise and responsible for me to walk away and now I am about to complete my 75 hours and receiving my broker's license in NC. With all that in mind, I hear about Obama forgiving loans and seeing how hard it is to get a job in your degree field and on par with the amount of debt kids have today I am thankful to God I was wise enough to get out. If I need legal tips I will study it on my own or simply consult an attorney.

    Dirk, I know I am young but in my experience even if you get into a top law school it is just not valuable today, the ROI is so minimal. My uncle's brother-in-law is a law professor at Duke and he really, really cautioned me before starting law school. He said, "make sure it truly is a passion of yours, do not expect to make a lot of $$ from it today." Even though it is a passion of mine I couldn't afford the expense and at the end of the day how much can you keep doing things just because you love them.... Yes I realize I am a bloody realist LOL. But, if it something you feel you need then go for it! All I know is there is guys from top law schools like NYU, Duke, Harvard struggling to find legal work... and all those I mentioned I know the lawyers personally.

    Who knows maybe one day I will end up going back to finish my law degree, but at that point I will either be extremely rich and just looking for something to do or my company will damn well be paying for that JD! haha

  • Rantoul, IL · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    Good for you! I know I won't make a boatload of money. In fact, I expect to make about the same or maybe, initially, a little less than I do now, but I want to do it for other reasons and I am pretty certain of a full scholarship at a state school. Lower tier, but what do I care?

    I still think the law degree would be a good complement to your RE efforts, but if you ever come to that conclusion, you have one year down already. Best wishes to you!

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 566 posts · 274 votes
    12y

    @Steve Hyduchak 

    Congratulations on your leap...at the end of the day it comes down to what you want to do with your life.  

    I disagree with you about someone from Havard Law or any other top 5 law school not getting a top tier firm job.  Most if not all graduates from a top 5 law school can get a job in a major metro area with a top firm.   

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 53 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    @Steve Hyduchak 

    Hey Steve. I just wanted to chime in because if you don't have passion for the law, it is best to pursue something you are passionate about. As a practicing attorney that has been practicing law since 2009, I have to admit that some of my former classmates are struggling with understanding their decision to pursue law. Many of those questioning their legal pursuits are (1) chained to practicing law because of law school debt, (2) don't know what else to do, or (3) feel as if it is too late to change careers. Don't be like one of these people. If you love the law, continue with it. Some of my friends truly enjoy their careers. If you don't (and law school was the path of least resistance), then go with something else. 

    I originally worked at a Vault 100 law firm (with offices in China, throughout the US, and London), my classmates (with similar jobs) and I felt as if we were going to be doing groundbreaking work. The reality was that we were stuck in our offices (1) cancelling dinner dates, (2) rescheduling anniversary dinners, (3) sleeping in our offices, or (4) getting fatter, balder, and more depressed because you are working around-the-clock to check a 100 page document for misplaced modifiers or subject-verb disagreements. I was able to tell my family about the deals I worked on, but a lot of my work and that of juniors consisted of simply doing replacement of defined terms, document review, etc. As you continue in your legal career, you start getting more substantive work. Which is nice and rewarding, but by that time you have gone through a few years of destroying friendships, ignoring family calls, etc, for the almighty billable hour. 

    Sure, there is a respite every now and then, but you never fully enjoy the calm. During that respite, you are worried because you have a billable requirement, and you quickly realize that you need to bill to survive.  I can probably go on and on about big law, but the reality is that "you should do what you want to do." That is where you will find true happiness. 

    Admittedly, it was only because of the big firm gig that I ended up at a nice boutique law firm doing hedge fund formation work. I am at a point where I can provide advice to clients with confidence on hedge fund formation, registration, and compliance. It is nice and enjoyable to be at this point of my legal career; however, I still dabble in real estate investing because there is an entrepreneurial fire in some of us. And that fire may be the reason for you questioning whether law is for you and pushing you towards taking on your own endeavors.  Best of luck. 

  • Investor · Mobile, AL · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    Which way did you end up going? 

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