The Poconos, PA · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 9 votes
Hey Guys and Gals,
This is not your typical post on BP but, since y'all are going to be similar to me and looking at things from a financial sense I would like to hear your opinions. And a lot of you have experience with what I would eventually like to get into also.
First off, I graduated from a state university with an undergrad in Finance then decided to make the plunge into law school. Moved down to North Carolina and am currently a 1L law student. Took out a 25k graduate loan that has a 6.9% interest rate that is accruing from the moment taken out, even while in school and now I am scared.
Law school is okay, I am top 30% in my class which is okay, but the debt concerns me. As you all know lawyers are a dime a dozen. The market is saturated and I am seeing that even for an "unpaid internship" the market is competitive! It disgusts me. I am questioning whether I made the right financial choice and have plans to finish my 1L year and move on with my life.
At the end of the day I do things as most of you that benefit me financially and will make my life more comfortable. Multiple people and attorneys told me to be weary of law school but I said, "no I will be the exception" and get those high paying jobs. Now I am thinking I may have made a mistake.
I guess I was hoping if any of you are attorneys or have experience with them in real estate what you thought or recommend? Just trying to learn from people's experience that have gone through what I am doing and what others can see.
Same basic concerns of a burned out biology engineering student last night, after discussions he has decided to bite the bullet and finish school. Which is what I'd suggest you do too.
Along with Andrew's comment as to work and go to school, a couple options maybe.
You might really dislike the military, but you'd be a JAG Officer out of school, you'll be an O3 by the end of a year, hang around into year 4 you'll be an O4, not sure what the pay scale is but I'll bet is better than most firms starting off. Just to set you at ease, JAGs are not out in the field as seen on TV, you're at a Division level (Army) or higher, not many bullets fly in that area. Then get out with bills paid and hang your shingle out.
Look to government. If your finance degree had 12 hours or more that qualifies as an accounting major, look to regulatory agencies in banking FDIC, Treasury, Fed, and even the CFBP (who has a great pay schedule) would allow you to work and finish school. Finance is the key to the door of RE, any type of RE.
I know several attorneys well, all are successful in their practice. I know of many more. One comes to mind in family law that I doubt he can afford new shoes to go to court, that or he's very thrifty. I hired an attorney full time with about 5 years out for, well, I better not say, but a GS 9 or an O2 in the military would make more.
No degree of any kind will make you wealthy, it only opens the door to opportunities of a better quality of life, financially and socially. What you do with it is up to you and a law degree opens about any door in business.
You won't be walking into an institution as an underwriter where you are right now, you're about two years out if you got in the right position starting as a loan officer. You might get into compliance to train, that's another alternative in a larger bank. Neither are exciting nor are you overpaid. What you get is experience that you can adopt in your own business.
Obviously you had a goal, so now the question is, what are you made of? That's giving you a swift kick in the tail, employers and successful people want those who complete goals, will make things happen, regardless of the roadblocks or hardships encountered. Nothing will be handed to you, unless you have a wealthy family, you will have to work hard and make sacrifices to succeed, that's part of success, the fight getting there. When you are my age will you be able to truthfully say that you did everything you could to be what and who you wanted to be?
I'd say finish the cheapest way you can. Unless your heart lies in corporate law in a large firm or getting into politics, the license is the goal, not trying to set yourself up with old college buddies. Most likely, your social network will be local in your area of operations. While I know folks nationally, they don't really impact RE in my area and really never had to call on them as all RE is local. If you go into a planning and zoning hearing it won't matter one bit if you went to Harvard or if you went to night school at some state school. Old school buddies aren't likely to influence your building department or your city council in getting what you need, unless they are on city council. RE is political and any law degree can open that door.
It's impossible for you to measure the opportunity costs of your choice, but I think you may be overvaluing the jobs you might get now and undervaluing the value of your future as an attorney or having a JD. Three of the largest developers in this area are/were attorneys. Three others are attorneys who are in home developments and custom homes. They are all self made multi millionaires, and really, they ain't that brilliant, but they do have the gonads to go after goals and make things happen.
My crystal ball says finish school, one way or another, succeed! Your worst enemy is often yourself. :)
I know you said the debt is scaring you, but why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't you do both?
How could you start saving money now for a rental property? How could you start getting more experience today to help build your real estate investing career while earning your law degree?
Where are you getting your law degree from? NCCU, UNC or Duke? While I agree with you the market place is getting over-saturated with lawyers, where you get the degree from can really make a difference too. Sometimes the alumni network could easily be worth the 70-80k in debt.
Andrew,
That is my issue. There is no way I can start saving much now. I am making interest payments on my loans so they do not spiral out of control when I am done or leave law school after this year. And I moved down from Pennsylvania and decided to go to NCCU mostly because of the law school price. But, I quickly learned in this area the school is not highly respected and many attorneys from the school told me, 'it is going to be feasible to get where I want, just a hell of a lot harder."
NCCU's law school, while a decent school, doesn't carry the reputation as the others in the area.
Perhaps you could plan to finish out the semester while looking for a job in finance. Maybe a job offer comes up that you like and helps you make the decision to leave law school and go to work full time. Then you can build your real estate career. You have a touch choice ahead of you, I wish you the best of luck on making the choice.
On another note, I have a couple properities in Durham between NCCU and Durham Tech. I am over that way a couple times a month. Let me know if you want to grab coffee some time and chat about real estate.
Same basic concerns of a burned out biology engineering student last night, after discussions he has decided to bite the bullet and finish school. Which is what I'd suggest you do too.
Along with Andrew's comment as to work and go to school, a couple options maybe.
You might really dislike the military, but you'd be a JAG Officer out of school, you'll be an O3 by the end of a year, hang around into year 4 you'll be an O4, not sure what the pay scale is but I'll bet is better than most firms starting off. Just to set you at ease, JAGs are not out in the field as seen on TV, you're at a Division level (Army) or higher, not many bullets fly in that area. Then get out with bills paid and hang your shingle out.
Look to government. If your finance degree had 12 hours or more that qualifies as an accounting major, look to regulatory agencies in banking FDIC, Treasury, Fed, and even the CFBP (who has a great pay schedule) would allow you to work and finish school. Finance is the key to the door of RE, any type of RE.
I know several attorneys well, all are successful in their practice. I know of many more. One comes to mind in family law that I doubt he can afford new shoes to go to court, that or he's very thrifty. I hired an attorney full time with about 5 years out for, well, I better not say, but a GS 9 or an O2 in the military would make more.
No degree of any kind will make you wealthy, it only opens the door to opportunities of a better quality of life, financially and socially. What you do with it is up to you and a law degree opens about any door in business.
You won't be walking into an institution as an underwriter where you are right now, you're about two years out if you got in the right position starting as a loan officer. You might get into compliance to train, that's another alternative in a larger bank. Neither are exciting nor are you overpaid. What you get is experience that you can adopt in your own business.
Obviously you had a goal, so now the question is, what are you made of? That's giving you a swift kick in the tail, employers and successful people want those who complete goals, will make things happen, regardless of the roadblocks or hardships encountered. Nothing will be handed to you, unless you have a wealthy family, you will have to work hard and make sacrifices to succeed, that's part of success, the fight getting there. When you are my age will you be able to truthfully say that you did everything you could to be what and who you wanted to be?
I'd say finish the cheapest way you can. Unless your heart lies in corporate law in a large firm or getting into politics, the license is the goal, not trying to set yourself up with old college buddies. Most likely, your social network will be local in your area of operations. While I know folks nationally, they don't really impact RE in my area and really never had to call on them as all RE is local. If you go into a planning and zoning hearing it won't matter one bit if you went to Harvard or if you went to night school at some state school. Old school buddies aren't likely to influence your building department or your city council in getting what you need, unless they are on city council. RE is political and any law degree can open that door.
It's impossible for you to measure the opportunity costs of your choice, but I think you may be overvaluing the jobs you might get now and undervaluing the value of your future as an attorney or having a JD. Three of the largest developers in this area are/were attorneys. Three others are attorneys who are in home developments and custom homes. They are all self made multi millionaires, and really, they ain't that brilliant, but they do have the gonads to go after goals and make things happen.
My crystal ball says finish school, one way or another, succeed! Your worst enemy is often yourself. :)
If you took the debt away your choice would be clear.
Come up with the way to make $. I suggest you arrange student housing for the law students. Connect with those in the area with places for rent offer to fill them with law students renting per bed for more. Take $100 a month for each bed filled. Every 10 beds is $1,000 a month for properties you don't own nor manage.
The debt you are incurring is obviously a concern, but do not let it become a fear that leads to paralysis. It is more debt than I incurred when I went to law school, but if you are still single without any family obligations, have passion and drive, you should be OK. If you drop out, you will probably always regret it.
I would not get to hung up on the lack of job opportunities you currently see. Don't get to hung up on the pressure of second year interviews either. There are a lot of ways to get going in your legal career, not just the advancement track through the large firms, especially if you are entrepreneurial.
I clerked for other firms beginning my second year.When I graduated law school and became an attorney, I worked for three years for other small law firms, where you get more experience in the trenches, opportunities to try cases, and if you demonstrate your work ethic, abilities, and focus on practical learning, you are given more responsibility which you should let it be known you want. After three years, I had six months savings in the bank and figured it was time to hang my own shingle. The way I looked at it then (I was single and had no family obligations) if I failed, the downside would be I would lose my savings and have to get another job. Fortunately, I never had to look back.
Once I tasted what it was like to work for myself though, there was never a chance I could go back to work as a lawyer employee for anyone else ever again.
Mike, I was always interested in the law and wanted to learn the ins and outs if you will of the process. But, I do not picture myself being a practicing attorney at this point. I had a mentor in undergrad who I looked up to greatly. She was a realtor and an attorney/professor. I thought she knew all the secrets of the game because of going to law school and I am learning that it is not so much going to benefit me in REI. Rather I could learn things from experience and as I need rather than take 2 more years of life and debt/opportunity cost.
@Steve Hyduchak It depends on your goals in life and your passion. If you have a passion for the law, do that. If you have a passion for real estate, I would think very carefully about continuing. If you want to make big money in law, you need to get your grades up. Top 10% minimum to work at one of the big firms making big money. You can always start at a smaller firm and move at some point. Keep in mind that if you get there, you will work a lot of hours. If you want to be a superstar associate at one of those firms and make partner quickly, you will work a LOT of hours. Go take an associate at one of those firms out for coffee and ask about his/her work schedule.
If you just want to make the most money for the least work, REI is a better deal. However, it's still work. I haven't found that being an attorney gives me any real advantage in REI. It helps some, but the parts that are relevant could be learned in 6 months of "on the job" REI training. I think the biggest advantage is that everyone THINKS I know all the secrets.
If you want to chat more, feel free to give me a call.
I agree...Adrian hit the nail on the head. There are far too many disappointed, frustrated, and miserable attorneys in existence. In my opinion that is the result of being unfocused. If you have a passion for real estate that should be your focus. That being said, the law degree could never hurt you, it can only open more doors and also give you the chance to build your own practice. My personal advise is there is a certain amount of personal satisfaction with completing a law degree and passing the bar. I would see it through if you intend to be a real estate attorney AND a real estate investor. Also, be sure to work as a summer associate in the field of real estate law, that should give you a good feel for what the day to day grind is really like. Don't hesitate to reach out to me if you want to discuss this further. Good Luck.
I would say run, don't walk, for the exit. Er ... Okay, finish this year but then bid adieu.
NCCU isn't a well rated school, and there just are too many lawyers from ttt schools looking for work these days. Being in the top 30% of low rated school just isn't going be of much value when it comes to salary. Way too many young lawyers of today are spending their days doing document review and short term contract gigs for $30/hour. Add in the loan payments and you're looking at a decade of poverty to pay for the next 2 years.
If you consider the $50k or so that you'll spend on the degree and also the foregone salary for the next 2 years it means you'll be 50 by the time you recoup the investment. Law school, once one of the most prestigious of careers, is just no longer worth the investment if you're not going to one of the top 10 schools or planning to join Daddy's firm after graduation.
Pretty tough when you're looking for career guidance here. No matter what we say, you're the one that has to deal with the life stuff.
I briefly considered law school. The thought passed after about two weeks. Lots of attorneys here in CA. Over 160K currently admitted, per Calbar.org. At any given time I typically employ at least six probate attorneys. Better use of my time and money. Even at $300-600/hour.
I discovered that trading money for time would not make me rich. Consequently, I decided that what I would do is focus on being compensated based on the perceived added value that people derived from the problems that I solved. And I changed from a broker mentality to an investor mindset.
I've made a career out of solving attorneys' problems. Way more lucrative. I work when I want with who I want to, on my terms. I don't work with people who want a commodity-priced solution or those that want to run the show.
And that, my friend, is just one of many reasons why I'm glad I'm not an attorney.
Passion for the law? Just the fact that you posted this thread, Steve, indicates to me that you don't have a passion for it (which is totally fine).
You need to consider the totality of the circumstances. Given the law school you attend, and your connections (whatever they may be), what are the odds you can get a well-paying job (six figures, lets say) after graduation? Given your declining interest in the subject matter, what are the odds you can stick with it and perform at that job long enough to pay off your debt and be financially rewarded (lets say, finish 5 years)?
The conventional wisdom is going to say to keep on chugging and get that piece of paper. Personally, I'd move on and seek other opportunities.
As a little background, I did go to law school (a top 10 school at that). I did borrow significantly. And I did get that well paying gig. And it still all sucked. I quit and moved on to a different career in less than 2 years, and I still have a nice chunk of debt hanging over my head (I like to think about it as a beautiful Mercedes that I've never had the pleasure of seeing but get the honor of paying for, monthly).
A legal education is worthwhile. But you can educate yourself cheaply at a library, or by taking cheap classes at a local community college. A law degree? Only really useful if you plan to practice law. And it sounds to me like you already know that is a bad fit for you.
Finish this year, take a year off and decide which course of action makes you happy. :) In the end, we all want a lifestyle business,
You need to decide. Exactly what is it you want your life to look like? How do you want to spend your days? What will make you have a happy life. Money is only one part of that answer.
Thank you all for your feedback and getting back to me. My tentative plan as of today is to finish the year on good terms and then take my "leave of absence." This will allow me to walk away for a year without burning any bridges as they say. I plan on using this next month or so planning my next move. I am hoping to find a helpful real estate investor in the area or back home (PA) and learn all I can from them while gaining experience and working. To me this makes the most financial sense at this point in my life, as I do not have that wealthy family who is going to fund every hope and dream of mine. @Sharon Vornholt this is similar to what you recommend and I do think that is a smart and safe course of action.
@Mike Hurney I hope this gives a little closure on the post, rather than it being up in the air haha.
I won't pretend to know what is a better choice, pursuing a law career or not, but I will make this observation: While you are busy deciding whether or not to go to law school, your life has been moving along at a steady pace which will only increase as you age. Before you know it you will be looking back and wondering whear the time went. Whatever you pursue, do it with enthusiasm and energy. $70,000 is not too much to invest in yourself but if you plan to spend the next few years studying law and it holds no interest for you, you will have wasted time and energy and that far outweighs the money.
Real estate is better than law in my (very biased) opinion. But I guess I would say it depends on how sure you are that you want to do real estate. I am really against investing on the side. You have to treat it as a full time job or more aptly as your vocation for it to really work. I have met a lot of real estate attorney's but never an active real estate investor who was also an active attorney.
I have met a lot of real estate attorney's but never an active real estate investor who was also an active attorney.
Here! I just had to chime in with my $.02 - REI is not "better" than law. What is "better" is whatever you have a passion for. If you love it it's not work. If you don't know your passion, do whatever makes you the most money for the least hours of work.
@Adrian Tilley I couldn't agree more with you. Especially if you are uncertain just do what makes you the most money with the least amount of hours.
Law was looked to me as beneficial but not a passion unfortunately. Just the thought of getting into managing real estate investments and getting into myself gives me goosebumps and excites me like a young boy on Christmas! I see so much potential and it greatly interests me. And obviously the potential for large income growth :)
Of course I did say my opinion was "very biased." Adrian is right, it comes down to what you're passionate about. I do think that real estate, generally speaking, has a higher upside and has much lower barriers to entry.
@Andrew Syrios well we all have a bias towards something no matter whether we say it or not! haha but I do agree with yours. Got to go with our gut instinct and at the end of the day what is going to make our lives the most comfortable.
On a positive note, I sat in at my first REIA meeting tonight and it was one of the most influential few hours I had in my life. Met many great people who are middle class like me and have learned to find a niche and make it out there, great to hear about entrepreneurial success! @Nicholas Miceli great job and presentation tonight!
I am thoroughly impressed with the turn out and advice from everybody on BiggerPockets. I am glad to see others willing to give advice and help a young buck like myself with their own personal stories and experiences. I cannot put a price on how much I appreciate everyones' advice.
Several of the people in my mastermind group either left their careers after college to become a real estate investor or never took that first corporate job after they graduated.
On person has an MBA in finance and never worked a single day in a corporate job. Another one has an MBA and was a CPA and tax strategist. He closed his business and began investing when he realized that all of the folks on the "other side of the table" were making more money than he was an accountant . Another was in the mortgage business. These folks have all been successful.
Your education will serve you well in either business.
@Sharon Vornholt I agree with you completely. My finance and accounting background should help me get going with some real estate investing company that I can cling and learn all I can from. And in time hopefully I can start my own business and live the dream like so many on this forum and yourself.
This is not your typical post on BP but, since y'all are going to be similar to me and looking at things from a financial sense I would like to hear your opinions. And a lot of you have experience with what I would eventually like to get into also.
First off, I graduated from a state university with an undergrad in Finance then decided to make the plunge into law school. Moved down to North Carolina and am currently a 1L law student. Took out a 25k graduate loan that has a 6.9% interest rate that is accruing from the moment taken out, even while in school and now I am scared.
Law school is okay, I am top 30% in my class which is okay, but the debt concerns me. As you all know lawyers are a dime a dozen. The market is saturated and I am seeing that even for an "unpaid internship" the market is competitive! It disgusts me. I am questioning whether I made the right financial choice and have plans to finish my 1L year and move on with my life.
At the end of the day I do things as most of you that benefit me financially and will make my life more comfortable. Multiple people and attorneys told me to be weary of law school but I said, "no I will be the exception" and get those high paying jobs. Now I am thinking I may have made a mistake.
I guess I was hoping if any of you are attorneys or have experience with them in real estate what you thought or recommend? Just trying to learn from people's experience that have gone through what I am doing and what others can see.
Thanks in advance!
For what it's worth, my sister went to Harvard with the intent to be an MD, but decided to go with a more predictable field such as law....went on and graduated from Penn Law in '07, worked for a couple years at a big corporate firm(6-7 days/week). Decided that she had enough of it, and now is in medical school to pursue her dream of helping people. Will she make more as an MD? Doubtful, but she will be happy. Almost all of her friends are still practicing law, and probably will the rest of their lives, I would imagine(great pay).In the end you will either end up at where your passion is...or WISH that you had. If money were not an issue- which one would you rather do?
I am on a similar path as you are, just past where you are. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad in my last year of dental school and realized I had made a mistake. I made more mistakes compounded with the real estate decline of 2008-2010 that set me back further. I would finish school unless you really dislike law school. Having a law degree will give you a fall back and the ability to have an income for financing, credibility to many investors and business people and many contacts. A high paying job like law, medical and the numerous other "dream jobs" many kids are sold are not a great way to become financially independent. I am currently trying to get debt free and get cash to invest debt free.
My advice is to stay in law school if you enjoy it/ do not hate it. If you hate it get out. Also you should decide where you would like to invest and start laying the foundation for your business there.
Sebastian, I bet she doesn't get through Med school, if she does she'll have her internship where it's easy to wash'em out.
Why, because she has a law degree!
She might get through but what a friend of mine said, who has a law degree and who is a surgeon, there is only one reason to exist with these two degrees and that's is suing doctor for malpractice!
He became a doctor first and then went to law school, the law school welcomed him with open arms! Doing it the other way around the med school knows where she is or could go and so do all the other professors and students. She can show up at some event and the others can ask, well, what area of medicine will you be suing us in?
BTW, I've never seen anyone make as much money from ground zero in any profession than my MD/JD friend, his father can't believe the millions he's pulled in and he is on the national stage. He also likes what he does, weeding out bad doctors.
Steve, sounds like you're giving up. Your existing degree will open the door and you can slide in.
A law degree knocks the doors off, they go flying, you can enter with your arms extended in both directions. You don't have to practice law, you don't have to go to court, but you could if you needed to. I suggest you talk to Jerry W. a lawyer and landlord/investor.
I don't think you realize how much law is in RE and how effective you could be with it. I'd say you could make 4 or 5 times what you could even possibly make going without a law degree. You could be a hot shot investor and make tons, with a law degree you'll get there faster and make more.
However, you would have to apply what you know, if all you'd do is frame your degree and never mention or use it, it probably wouldn't do much good.
For someone to suggest against any education that they themselves lack just doesn't seem like wise consultation, they have no clue as to the possibilities. :)
John. I'd be a dentist and make some money then invest part time making a transition to what I loved doing.
While I don't totally regret my Army service (especially as much as when I was in, LOL) it wasn't my greatest earning years, I paid a price so to speak that made me more successful, mission oriented, self control, determination, mental endurance, mental toughness, self confidence and a mature bearing all contributed to what followed. Education can do the same thing! :)