Tenant caused fire and has no renters insurance

Tenant caused fire and has no renters insurance

Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes

Hi all,

Looking for advice for my new real estate dilemma. I had a tenant call me the other day informing me of a fire on the front porch. The tenant left me a message in the middle of the night informing me of the fire and told me her and her bf were in bed sleeping and her bf smelled smoke. The fire extinguisher was used and they called 911. Fire department came out and was able to put out the fire. I went out there that morning to assess damages, take pictures and clean up. I talked to the bf who informed me he was playing video games when he noticed an orange tint in the window and went outside and noticed the fire, grabbed the fire extinguisher and called 911. A different story than what the gf told me. Either way, the fire was odd, and there was no electrical around the area of the fire. However, they are smokers. Where the fire was, you can tell in started outside, and there is no damage on the interior of the house. My theory, he went outside, threw a cigarette butt in the planter and that is where the fire originated. I asked him if he was outside prior to, and he told me no. Regardless, I talked to the gf later that day.....I'm not an idiot and I explained my theory to the gf.  

Long story short we have had a decent landlord/tenant relationship for 4 years, and they are okay tenants. Nothing extraordinary about them. They pay rent on time and take care of the property just enough-ish. It's a duplex so they are responsible for yardwork and shoveling, which quite honestly lacks, as the grass is sometimes is a bit overgrown for my liking. Anyways, she does not argue my story, and things were left as is. The next day I got her renters insurance information and her policy number and was going to file a claim with them. However, when I spoke to her she informed me she was going to contact her insurance to let them know. She gets back to me later that night to inform me some story about how her insurance was never renewed after the year and they stopped auto deducting the payment, blah blah blah. So, no renters insurance. (I will confirm with the info she gave me, but I assume they have none). I have a high deductible plan with my insurance and I think the damage is less than the 5K deductible of my insurance. I have no problem paying out of pocket, but how would you go about making sure they pay you back, other than going to court? Court costs I'm sure wouldn't be worth it and seems to be a pain in the ***. I thought about talking with them and seeing how they would work with a payment plan and I would write up a legal agreement for that. Not really sure how to go about it, as I think they  would take responsibility for it, but I have my doubts. I have not brought up anything to them yet after her she told me about the lack of insurance. 

Those with more experience, what would you do? I have no  problems eating the cost and I have plenty of reserves and I know that is the name of the game. Clearly, for me lesson learned about making sure tenants have renters insurance. I want to play nice and try to get the money back that it will cost to fix it and then not renew their lease. Or tell them if they do not take the financial responsibility for the damage that I would evict and take them to court? I know she is worried, as she informed me she would hope I would work through this with her, as I know she wants to stay as a tenant. I think she is worried about her tenancy (clearly, they almost burnt my house down!). Just curious as to others thoughts on the manner?

Thanks in advance for any advice, I would appreciate it.

-Amy

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
2y

Honestly, I stopped reading halfway through.

They are mediocre tenants. They started a fire that could have burned the entire structure down and cost someone their life. They refuse to take responsibility even though it's clear what happened.

Charge them for the damages. Terminate their lease. If they refuse to leave, talk with an attorney about eviction.

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    @Amy Oltendorf

    Do you have a property manager? If so I would get them involved in why they let the tenants renters insurance expire?

    If not, then each of these

    Situations is handled differently

    I would put them on a payment plan as they probably don’t have the $5k for the deductible

    Whatever you do make sure it’s in writing and clearly outlined and defined

    I would have an attorney draft it up as well

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y

    Honestly, I stopped reading halfway through.

    They are mediocre tenants. They started a fire that could have burned the entire structure down and cost someone their life. They refuse to take responsibility even though it's clear what happened.

    Charge them for the damages. Terminate their lease. If they refuse to leave, talk with an attorney about eviction.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7244 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    This has never happened to me or my clients for a couple of reasons: our properties are all non-smoking and we don't renew a lease until the renter's insurance has been renewed and proof is submitted - that policy is a big deal to us.  There's a lot online about the landlord's right to sue for damages when an event, like a fire, is definitively the tenant's fault.  In this case, I'm not sure you have that.  Is the boyfriend on the lease?  Is the requirement for renter's insurance in the lease?  I think I would consider a couple of options:

    Require that renter's insurance be engaged immediately to include "landlord as additionally insured."  This is your responsibility to vet so make sure you have a copy of the policy.  All tenants should have coverage (meaning the bf too).  And, if this is in your lease, the tenant has violated the lease covenant and you would want to let them know that they have (in most states) five days to cure the deficiency or eviction could occur.  It's not their option to renew...

    If they are unwilling/unable to cover the damages financially, come up with a payment plan that goes on top of the rent for the expense.  Put it in writing.  Please know that if they claim that it is due to landlord negligence, it will be a whole different ball game.  

    Check renter insurance policies.  And, you may find that their original policy - had it been in effect at the time - may have limited reimbursement to a specific dollar amount and or conditions.  Knowing that information could avoid a pushback should they decide to challenge you and claim the fire was not of their making.  Their security deposit is also at risk due to the damage.  If it were me, I would want the repairs made now and without considering the security deposit.

    So sorry this happened...just not good. Hope this helps.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    2y

    You need proof they caused this.

    No proof, just pay for the repairs.

    Make sure you are listed as a loss payee on rental insurance and you will be notified when there is a lapse in coverage. 

    This is less than the cost of a new roof.

    You could raise the rent if they agree or at end of lease to go towards the repair costs.

  • Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Why do you allow smokers? The cost to get rid of that smell plus the fire danger make it a terrible idea.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Chris Seveney

    No, I manage them myself, but I have learned this is a must. Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner

    Yes, I give them too much credit, just because they pay their rent on time, you are exactly right. Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. This will change how I do things in the future. Live and always learning, just glad no one was hurt. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Patricia Steiner

    Thank you for responding. Yes, bf is on lease, however my lease (standard WI lease written up by an attorney) just has renters insurance "recommended." I know now to include this in my non-standard rental provisions along with proof (along with proof of renewal as you mentioned). I appreciate all the advice, as I will be changing things as I move forward to avoid this in the future. I'm just glad the damage was not too extensive and no one was hurt. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @John Underwood

    I know, that is what I was worried about initially, as I already have spoken to neighbors in the area regarding cameras. Cost is minimal, and just glad no one was hurt. I have no problems eating the cost, as that is a part of the business, but I definitely will be changing how I go about this in the future. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Eric Gerakos 

    Good point. I have it in my lease no smoking in the unit. This was after my very first built in tenant that I had to clean up after, and yes, it was disgusting. Now, after this, I guess no more smokers in the future, period. 

  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Amy Oltendorf

    They’ll never be able to afford to pay you. I’d eat the cost and tell them whatever amount it cost you. Then raise their rent aggressively at lease renewal above market rent. They may end up staying and you’ll get some of your $ back with higher rent. If they leave, then good riddance.

  • Michael SmytheBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Mostly good advice, but a few challenges overlooked.

    1) While you can put many things in your lease, including no smoking, good luck monitoring them 24/7/365 and you'll need even more luck getting a judge to enforce them in court.

    2) Sure you can get rid of these tenants, but no one has asked what Class of property/tenant you have. This doesn't sound like a Class A situation. The lower the Class of tenant, the more common issues like this are and they more you have to get creative to deal with them - other than just getting rid of the tenant.

    3) No one addresses that we are in winter, the worst time to find a new tenant. Also, the market in 2024 is expect to be worse for rentals - Days On Market will increase, but rents will decrease. So, are you sure you want to get rid of them after 4 years?

    Understand that a judge will probably at best rule that all you can collect against the tenants is the LOWER of:
    - The cost of the damages or
    - Your insurance deductible.

    Another option:

    - Tell them what this will cost you and ask them what they think is fair for them to compensate you. You might be pleasantly surprised by their response.
    --- Perhaps they will agree to modifying their lease to increase their rent to basically pay you back over time. See if you can get them to also extend their lease for 2 more years. 

    - If they refuse to offer any compensation, or threaten to move, you may need to start a small claims case against them ASAP. It'll be easier to have them served while they still live there. DO NOT threaten them with this to tip them off. Of course, this will lead to them stop paying rent, so you will need to be prepared to start a separate eviction case against them.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    Get a copy of the report from the fire department. If they found the likely ignition source, it will say it in the report. If it was a cigarette, you MAKE the tenants take responsibility. They can pay something down and something extra every month until the damage is paid off. FYI, depending on your location, the fire department may send you a bill for coming out. It is generally not a cheap call.

    If the report does not list a likely cause of fire, best you can do is argue in court that the property needs to be returned to you in the same condition as when rented and the tenants were responsible for its care and therefore liable. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Lansing, MI · Member since 2020 · 172 posts · 94 votes
    2y

    @Amy Oltendorf This whole discussion would be worth $200 - $400 to have an hour chat with a local Real Estate attorney by you. Especially if you would like to collect thousands of dollars in damages from your tenants. All of the advice on here is great, but this definitely involves too much local / state law for BP members to give you the perfect path to take. You could definitely put yourself in a legal battle if you start "forcing" your tenants to pay damages. 

    Once it's taken care of though, I agree with most people above. Politely part ways with these tenants... 

  • Mackaylee BeachPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 494 votes
    2y

    Thankfully, there were no injuries! 
    Smoking not only leaves an unpleasant odor, but it can also pose significant risks. To ensure tenant safety, my lease agreements include a strict no-smoking policy. Should any damage occur due to smoking, the tenant is held fully responsible for repairs.
    I would propose discussing a payment arrangement that works for both parties. Additionally, I would suggest making adjustments to the lease agreement to include a no-smoking clause.


  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    2y

    Renters insurance wouldnt pay for this anyways. Renters insurance would cover their own belongings if they were destroyed in a fire, and to pay for their new place to stay while repairs were compelted. It would not cover your properties damage. Thats what your insurance is for. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @John Morgan Yes, that is my worry. That is why I am thinking raise rent or a payment plan. Thanks for the advice. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Michael Smythe

    Yes, you make good points. Certainly not a Class A situation, maybe a B- or C+ neighborhood. I am taking into consideration the longevity of their tenancy as you are correct, I do not want to fill during the winter months, as I am in Wisconsin. Overall, thank you for all of your input as it was really helpful, I appreciate it. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Greg M.

    Yes, I already have that call in to the fire department when the report is done. However, I'm skeptical of the contents of that report, but we will see. Thank you for your two cents, I appreciate it. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Troy DeLong

    Yes of course, all of this information I take with a grain of salt, as I know I cannot "force" them to pay for anything. Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it! 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Mackaylee Beach

    Agreed, just glad no one was hurt. No smoking clause, yes, good idea. I have no smoking clause in the unit, but maybe it should be implemented outside. I just cannot monitor that 24/7. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2012 · 49 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Russell Brazil

    Even if the report I receive says it was started by a cigarette? Renters insurance also covers the property, which is now what I will be implementing in all of my units. Thanks for the advice. 

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Renters insurance wouldnt pay for this anyways. Renters insurance would cover their own belongings if they were destroyed in a fire, and to pay for their new place to stay while repairs were compelted. It would not cover your properties damage. Thats what your insurance is for. 


     This is the right information, renter would not cover building damage.

    What matters is really landlord schedule A dwelling coverage.

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Amy Oltendorf:

    Hi all,

    Looking for advice for my new real estate dilemma. I had a tenant call me the other day informing me of a fire on the front porch. The tenant left me a message in the middle of the night informing me of the fire and told me her and her bf were in bed sleeping and her bf smelled smoke. The fire extinguisher was used and they called 911. Fire department came out and was able to put out the fire. I went out there that morning to assess damages, take pictures and clean up. I talked to the bf who informed me he was playing video games when he noticed an orange tint in the window and went outside and noticed the fire, grabbed the fire extinguisher and called 911. A different story than what the gf told me. Either way, the fire was odd, and there was no electrical around the area of the fire. However, they are smokers. Where the fire was, you can tell in started outside, and there is no damage on the interior of the house. My theory, he went outside, threw a cigarette butt in the planter and that is where the fire originated. I asked him if he was outside prior to, and he told me no. Regardless, I talked to the gf later that day.....I'm not an idiot and I explained my theory to the gf.  

    Long story short we have had a decent landlord/tenant relationship for 4 years, and they are okay tenants. Nothing extraordinary about them. They pay rent on time and take care of the property just enough-ish. It's a duplex so they are responsible for yardwork and shoveling, which quite honestly lacks, as the grass is sometimes is a bit overgrown for my liking. Anyways, she does not argue my story, and things were left as is. The next day I got her renters insurance information and her policy number and was going to file a claim with them. However, when I spoke to her she informed me she was going to contact her insurance to let them know. She gets back to me later that night to inform me some story about how her insurance was never renewed after the year and they stopped auto deducting the payment, blah blah blah. So, no renters insurance. (I will confirm with the info she gave me, but I assume they have none). I have a high deductible plan with my insurance and I think the damage is less than the 5K deductible of my insurance. I have no problem paying out of pocket, but how would you go about making sure they pay you back, other than going to court? Court costs I'm sure wouldn't be worth it and seems to be a pain in the ***. I thought about talking with them and seeing how they would work with a payment plan and I would write up a legal agreement for that. Not really sure how to go about it, as I think they  would take responsibility for it, but I have my doubts. I have not brought up anything to them yet after her she told me about the lack of insurance. 

    Those with more experience, what would you do? I have no  problems eating the cost and I have plenty of reserves and I know that is the name of the game. Clearly, for me lesson learned about making sure tenants have renters insurance. I want to play nice and try to get the money back that it will cost to fix it and then not renew their lease. Or tell them if they do not take the financial responsibility for the damage that I would evict and take them to court? I know she is worried, as she informed me she would hope I would work through this with her, as I know she wants to stay as a tenant. I think she is worried about her tenancy (clearly, they almost burnt my house down!). Just curious as to others thoughts on the manner?

    Thanks in advance for any advice, I would appreciate it.

    -Amy

    Accients happen. Renters insurance would not cover your property and depending how much the damages are you could just present them with a bill / payment plan for all of the cost of half of it. Terminating the lease now makes no sense, as they have just learned an expensive lesson. That's like the old story of an facory worker who caused 10k in damages and is surprised that he is not getting fored. Manager responds: why would I fire you?  I just invested 10k in your education! And you may have to treat the smoke smell, paint and find a new tenant.

    Edit: winter is a bit slower to rent, but there is also almost no inventory around, which makes it kind of a wash. We just rented a couple SF and had about 20 showings per week, the next one will be ready by the end of December and I am not worried about it.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
    Quote from @Amy Oltendorf:

    Hi all,

    Looking for advice for my new real estate dilemma. I had a tenant call me the other day informing me of a fire on the front porch. The tenant left me a message in the middle of the night informing me of the fire and told me her and her bf were in bed sleeping and her bf smelled smoke. The fire extinguisher was used and they called 911. Fire department came out and was able to put out the fire. I went out there that morning to assess damages, take pictures and clean up. I talked to the bf who informed me he was playing video games when he noticed an orange tint in the window and went outside and noticed the fire, grabbed the fire extinguisher and called 911. A different story than what the gf told me. Either way, the fire was odd, and there was no electrical around the area of the fire. However, they are smokers. Where the fire was, you can tell in started outside, and there is no damage on the interior of the house. My theory, he went outside, threw a cigarette butt in the planter and that is where the fire originated. I asked him if he was outside prior to, and he told me no. Regardless, I talked to the gf later that day.....I'm not an idiot and I explained my theory to the gf.  

    Long story short we have had a decent landlord/tenant relationship for 4 years, and they are okay tenants. Nothing extraordinary about them. They pay rent on time and take care of the property just enough-ish. It's a duplex so they are responsible for yardwork and shoveling, which quite honestly lacks, as the grass is sometimes is a bit overgrown for my liking. Anyways, she does not argue my story, and things were left as is. The next day I got her renters insurance information and her policy number and was going to file a claim with them. However, when I spoke to her she informed me she was going to contact her insurance to let them know. She gets back to me later that night to inform me some story about how her insurance was never renewed after the year and they stopped auto deducting the payment, blah blah blah. So, no renters insurance. (I will confirm with the info she gave me, but I assume they have none). I have a high deductible plan with my insurance and I think the damage is less than the 5K deductible of my insurance. I have no problem paying out of pocket, but how would you go about making sure they pay you back, other than going to court? Court costs I'm sure wouldn't be worth it and seems to be a pain in the ***. I thought about talking with them and seeing how they would work with a payment plan and I would write up a legal agreement for that. Not really sure how to go about it, as I think they  would take responsibility for it, but I have my doubts. I have not brought up anything to them yet after her she told me about the lack of insurance. 

    Those with more experience, what would you do? I have no  problems eating the cost and I have plenty of reserves and I know that is the name of the game. Clearly, for me lesson learned about making sure tenants have renters insurance. I want to play nice and try to get the money back that it will cost to fix it and then not renew their lease. Or tell them if they do not take the financial responsibility for the damage that I would evict and take them to court? I know she is worried, as she informed me she would hope I would work through this with her, as I know she wants to stay as a tenant. I think she is worried about her tenancy (clearly, they almost burnt my house down!). Just curious as to others thoughts on the manner?

    Thanks in advance for any advice, I would appreciate it.

    -Amy


    Accients happen. Renters insurance would not cover your property and depending how much the damages are you could just present them with a bill / payment plan for all of the cost of half of it. Terminating the lease now makes no sense, as they have just learned an expensive lesson. That's like the old story of an facory worker who caused 10k in damages and is surprised that he is not getting fored. Manager responds: why would I fire you?  I just invested 10k in your education! And you may have to treat the smoke smell, paint and find a new tenant.


     What is interesting to me is there is this belief that cheap renter insurance will cover property damage , if they cover damage the insurance would be 900 percent more expensive.

    the reason renter insurance is cheap is because the coverage is vague with tons of documentation, I can’t imagine even to use adjuster for renter insurance. They may only cover what ? TV …. And the coverage is capped.

    when there is damage like this there are really three protections : your schedule A, your deductible and reputation of the insurance company. Even if you have zero deduction but if insurance company is not good, they will bring you to worse situation only by not paying their responsibility 

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