Providing tenant alternate accommodation when i need to fix the house

San Diego, California
General Landlording & Rental Properties
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Providing tenant alternate accommodation when i need to fix the house

Wai Chan
Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes

There is some deferred maintenance tenant want me to take care of in the bathroom and kitchen in a 2 bedroom/1 bathroom house. The work should take about 4-5 days. The work is pretty extensive so I want tenant to move out temporarily while the contractor can do the job easier. The tenant has a few other people that I am not aware of living in the unit and also have two dogs. I have been graciously turning a blind eye to the occupant and dogs situation for the past. However, when I told the tenant that I will provide one hotel suite for 4 people (2 queen bed with kitchen and free breakfast), she has started demanding me to provide room and board for everyone including the dogs. She told me I know the dogs live there so I should also take care of it. The hotel is about 4 miles away from where she lives but she demands that the location has to be close to her grandkids' school (I actually have no idea her grandkids live there). I thought I have been providing enough assistance to help with the situation but it seems that she now tries to take advantage of me. I am only asking her to move out for 6 nights but what she is demanding will cost me ~2/3 of the rent. At one point she even said if the hotel doesn't provide kitchen then I need to pay her $500 just for food for 6 nights.

If you were the landlord, what would you do? 

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Wai Chan:

You've made a terrible mistake of allowing the tenant to violate the lease with unauthorized occupants and pets. They now see you as a weak landlord and will walk all over you every chance they get.

Please don't make another mistake by housing them for a renovation and then handing them keys to a renovated rental. In fact, I wouldn't do the renovation at all unless it is 100% necessary. Let them finish their lease, get rid of them, then renovate.

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  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    2y

    Then charge her pet fees, pet rent, additional deposit and additional rent for the extra people and demand a 2 year or longer lease.

    Then you can get them a second room and find a place that allows dogs.

    Red roof Inn is cheap.

    Maybe just do a couple nights while the bathroom is being redone and have contractor work around them for the other stuff 

    Tell the contractor you'll give him a bonus if he can work longer days and finish sooner.

    4Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Wai Chan:

    You've made a terrible mistake of allowing the tenant to violate the lease with unauthorized occupants and pets. They now see you as a weak landlord and will walk all over you every chance they get.

    Please don't make another mistake by housing them for a renovation and then handing them keys to a renovated rental. In fact, I wouldn't do the renovation at all unless it is 100% necessary. Let them finish their lease, get rid of them, then renovate.

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    8Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    2y

    I would give them a 30 days notice to vacate .

    1Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @John Underwood

    That's one of the option if the tenant is being cooperative and willing to put the extra people and pet on lease and pay the extra fee. I highly doubt they will do that.

    0Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner

    I agree that I have made a big mistake by being too nice to tenant. I should have drawn a clear line beforehand. I have thought of not doing the repair work but she has implied complaining that to City and said the house is not habitable.

    The sad thing is that even the tenant has violated the lease and if I want to evict them with just cause, it will take 6-9 months from start to finish and 25K loss of rent + fee.

    In California tenant can pretty much do whatever they want and the policy encourage them doing that. It is pretty sad.

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Wai Chan  What is necessary?  Follow the law only exactly in California. She has already proven herself difficult.  I would not expect someone with extra people and two dogs not declared when she moved in to take nice care of the property. And she is fighting with you already.   You are renovating and she will make a mess of your reno.  Stick by what you offer. Maybe offer less as an option.  Code requires functional not fancy. Think she may be washing the dogs in the new tub if you put one in.

    2Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @Colleen F.

    @Colleen F.

    The problem is that it is difficult to define what is necessary when you run into this kind of situation. It is not black and white written on any document. Different people can interpretate the policy differently. If we need clear definition I do think it will involve legal process which will be expensive and even more unnecessary. It is the sad story of being in landlord-unfriendly state.

    I will definitely try making the repair as minimal as possible until I can evict the tenant more efficiently.

    0Reply
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    2y

    It is maintenance she wants done, the other tenants and dogs are not on the lease...tell her no.  As soon as her lease is coming up for renewal, get her out.  If she's month to month, give her 30 or 60 days' notices (whatever is required by law) and once she's out, do the repairs.  She has extra people living there, they are getting a free ride, they can pay for their own place to stay.  If parents and grandkids are also staying there and it is a 2 bedroom house, I'd also tell her the number of unlawful occupants exceeds the number that can legally live there.

    0Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @Theresa Harris

    I plan to give her notice when the lease is up next May. However my understanding is that with or without just cause landlord cannot move the tenant out easily in San Diego nowadays. If she doesn't cooperate I will need to evict her which will take 6-9 months and 25K loss of rent and fee.

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Wai Chan maybe you should get legal advice or talk with an experienced california landlord hopefully someone with a property in a similar area. I think that it is hard for us who are not under the same California laws to advise generally on what would be necessary in this case. I would make the property habitable whatever that might mean fixing plumbing and paint and concurrently I think you have to do lease violations and start eviction. The issue here is that if you wait until may you are accepting the situation and that is what a judge may see. She may also change the dogs to ESAs and you will be stuck and depending on the size of the property you can be stuck with more people. You could get a PM but I would understand the issues first because its your property and you should be in the know on what to do.  Being nice and turning a blind eye will not help you in this situation.

    2Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y

    I recommend you join the California Apartment Association and start educating yourself on the law. I believe they have resources available to help you in situations like this, such as legal advisors.

    You have to get a grip on your property or this tenant is going to run you into the ground.

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  • Adam BartomeoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Oh boy... Painted yourself into a corner by renting in CA... I do not recommended listening to the majority of folks on this thread. Normally, we hold all of our tenants to a higher standard but in your case your will need to play nice and give her what she is asking or find a way to meet in the middle.  Like you said, you have to find just cause to move them out. Maybe while they are doing the work they find mold, that is a big problem, and there is just cause. 

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    1Reply
  • Peter W.
    Member since 2020 · 351 posts · 329 votes
    2y

    Without knowing the exact issues, one of the key things you said is "tenant wants".   The solution is you aren't going to take care deferred maintenance, if the tenant isn't going to play nice with you.

    As others have said, learn the law in your area, usually tenants' rights groups have good summaries which I would read before reading the actual code.  Here is one from San Diego 
    Tenant-Protections-Guide.pdf (sdhc.org) and California courts.ca.gov/documents/California-Tenants-Guide.pdf. Based on my five minutes glancing at those links (CA is more relevant than San Diego), it seems in your case as long as the plumbing is in order, you aren't required to make the repairs.

    Best wishes and good luck.

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    2y

    Do not do anything to the house, start eviction today. They have broken your lease and will be nothng but trouble down the road. Sure it will cost you some $$, but it will probably be more if you keep them.

    Consider moving out of Cali, or at least go OOS with your rentals. Also, maybe just get out of the landlord business if this is how you run things. You can make a better return with less hassles like this. At the very least, hire a good PM company.

    0Reply
  • Sean McKee
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 266 posts · 188 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Wai Chan:

    @Nathan Gesner

    I agree that I have made a big mistake by being too nice to tenant. I should have drawn a clear line beforehand. I have thought of not doing the repair work but she has implied complaining that to City and said the house is not habitable.

    The sad thing is that even the tenant has violated the lease and if I want to evict them with just cause, it will take 6-9 months from start to finish and 25K loss of rent + fee.

    In California tenant can pretty much do whatever they want and the policy encourage them doing that. It is pretty sad.

    I'm sorry this is happening. I agree with getting legal advice. I moved to evict a  non-paying tenant and they called the city. They said my attic addition was illegal. It wasn't and we had it permitted. I sorted it out and I filed for an eviction, and she jumped ship a few weeks later. We didn't even make it to the court date.

    Tenants threaten these kinds of actions as a form of leverage. Take it away from her. Your already dealing with the maintenance issues. Only do what is required by law. Are you sure they need to move out for the repairs? Once any issues are dealt with, their leverage over you goes down quite a bit.  

    As long as you are addressing the issues you should be fine. You start getting in trouble when you do absolutely nothing, which is doesn't sound like you are doing. If this tenant is as bad as you say they are, they won't stop there. They will continue to demand more and threaten more.

    I'm in a slow eviction city as well, so I understand the fear of losing money for a long period. But an eviction is mutually destructive for both parties. You lose money and they end up with an eviction on their record. They get black listed from housing, etc. Most tenants are equally if not more fearful of this, than you are of losing money.




    1Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @Adam Bartomeo

    I agree with you. Most people do not understand the rule in CA. I would rather work around the situation for now. Eviction is really the last resort if I can't withstand any more

    1Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y

    @Bruce Woodruff

    Haha. Thanks for the discouraging comments. I also own properties in Texas and I can evict tenant within 45 days with less than 1K of fee. I understand the pros and cons with OOS vs San Diego investing. For the past 10 years she is the first tenant give me trouble. I take it as lesson learned and I am sure this thing will happen if you have invested long enough.

    No offense but most PM are useless. The resource/tool they have is same as me. There is no other legal way to end this other than filing eviction. Hiring PM or not will give me the same story.

    1Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Wai Chan:

    @Bruce Woodruff

    Haha. Thanks for the discouraging comments. 

    Don't take it personally, I did not mean it that way. I'm from San Diego as well and the Cali anti-landlord sentiments just tick me off. And I suspect that it will only get worse as Gavin doubles down on his policies...

    Good luck to you, but I would still sell the Cali property and put that money in Texas as well..... you could get 2 or maybe 3 properties there, right?

    0Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Wai Chan:

    @Bruce Woodruff

    Haha. Thanks for the discouraging comments. 

    Don't take it personally, I did not mean it that way. I'm from San Diego as well and the Cali anti-landlord sentiments just tick me off. And I suspect that it will only get worse as Gavin doubles down on his policies...

    Good luck to you, but I would still sell the Cali property and put that money in Texas as well..... you could get 2 or maybe 3 properties there, right?


     No worry. I found this also frustrating sometimes investing in CA with all these left-wing policies trying to ask you not to do it. I hope there will be some changes after November but we will see.

    Even with all these speed bump I still want to invest in CA vs OOS. I am actually selling a few in Dallas to do a exchange in San Diego....

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Wai Chan:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Wai Chan:

    @Bruce Woodruff

    Haha. Thanks for the discouraging comments. 

    Don't take it personally, I did not mean it that way. I'm from San Diego as well and the Cali anti-landlord sentiments just tick me off. And I suspect that it will only get worse as Gavin doubles down on his policies...

    Good luck to you, but I would still sell the Cali property and put that money in Texas as well..... you could get 2 or maybe 3 properties there, right?


     No worry. I found this also frustrating sometimes investing in CA with all these left-wing policies trying to ask you not to do it. I hope there will be some changes after November but we will see.

    Even with all these speed bump I still want to invest in CA vs OOS. I am actually selling a few in Dallas to do a exchange in San Diego....

    Well, I certainly wish you luck! I took advantage of the California appreciation for decades. I am not sure that it will continue forever though, with the Exodus of the middle class out of that state. I think if you make that move pretty soon you'll be good though!
    0Reply
  • Wai Chan
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 44 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Peter W.:

    Without knowing the exact issues, one of the key things you said is "tenant wants".   The solution is you aren't going to take care deferred maintenance, if the tenant isn't going to play nice with you.

    As others have said, learn the law in your area, usually tenants' rights groups have good summaries which I would read before reading the actual code.  Here is one from San Diego 
    Tenant-Protections-Guide.pdf (sdhc.org) and California courts.ca.gov/documents/California-Tenants-Guide.pdf. Based on my five minutes glancing at those links (CA is more relevant than San Diego), it seems in your case as long as the plumbing is in order, you aren't required to make the repairs.

    Best wishes and good luck.


     Thank you for the link. That's a good idea to learn from the tenants' right group first!

    0Reply
  • Alecia LovelessPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Wai Chan I made the mistake of renovating a unit for a difficult tenant last fall. Now they have become unbearable to me and the other tenants in the building and I have no means to get rid of them because I need a reason to non-renew.

    If she’s already violating your lease get rid of her then do the renovation and get a new, better tenant in that will respect your lease.

    1Reply
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    2y

    I have units in San Diego.  

    Tenants use to threaten to sue me or complain to authorities regularly.  It never happened. 

    When a tenant moves a new dog into Unit, I give them 3 days to get rid of it.  They have claimed esa.  I state ab468 requires medical provider to have long relationship, far longer than 3 days so there is no way for them to get a CA legal ESA authorization.  

    if you do not know the laws better than your tenants, hire a pm that does.  

    My lease requires tenant insurance and is clear that all the tenant gets is a reduction of rent for the days the unit is not occupied. We are not obligated to pay their lodging.  Their renters insurance hopefully will cover this. 

    With ab1482, we do not do rehabs beyond health and safety.  We seldom paint, we seldom replace flooring.  We do not replace cabinets or vanities without charging the tenant for the damages they caused.   

    Hire a pm.  It will save you money.  

    Good luck

    0Reply
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