Attic Insulation on Rental - Install or not?
Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes
Attic Insulation on Rental - Install or not?
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Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10yIt's a good investment to make sure all of your properties have sufficient insulation and are weatherized appropriately, regardless of who lives there. When we make improvements to our units, it becomes another selling point. Very few prospective tenants ask in advance about how well insulated a building is, but if there is a deficiency, they will let you know.
When we get a heat wave, I encourage tenants to block as much sun coming through south facing windows as they can. Good trees can be strategically planted to provide beneficial shade too.
Step up and do for the property what you would do for your own home to make it comfortable. Don't look to charging the tenants for this either. Sometimes the local utility district will offer incentives that will bring you some savings. It's a business expense that will pay you back many times over. Doing this now will really win your tenants over and be great for the relationship. Good start!
38 Replies
- Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes10y
It's a good investment to make sure all of your properties have sufficient insulation and are weatherized appropriately, regardless of who lives there. When we make improvements to our units, it becomes another selling point. Very few prospective tenants ask in advance about how well insulated a building is, but if there is a deficiency, they will let you know.
When we get a heat wave, I encourage tenants to block as much sun coming through south facing windows as they can. Good trees can be strategically planted to provide beneficial shade too.
Step up and do for the property what you would do for your own home to make it comfortable. Don't look to charging the tenants for this either. Sometimes the local utility district will offer incentives that will bring you some savings. It's a business expense that will pay you back many times over. Doing this now will really win your tenants over and be great for the relationship. Good start!
- Property Manager · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 87 votes10y
I have found residents who have large utility bills tend to use the bill as an excuse to not pay rent on time. Also, blown in insulation is pretty inexpensive. Just do it and you won't have to do it again.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes10y
Insulation is a reasonable investment, but beware: it is unlikely they're going to see huge drops in utility costs from insulating the attic, especially in cooling season (more likely to see a difference in the winter) because hot air naturally rises and cold air naturally sinks. Without insulation you're going to get some bleed-through of heat transfer, but unless the paint is blistering off the drywall ceiling it's not as big as you think.
But as far as asking them for money to help with the insulation, I think that's poor form. You get the benefit of the insulation as long as you own the house, wherein they only get as long as they live there. Insulation is (more or less) a permanent improvement that's not done more than once.
Skyline Properties - Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Current codes require R-38 of attic insulation, based on IECC 2012. Assuming you have an older house you may have R-30 or lower in the attic. When its 100 degrees out nothing cools quickly or efficiently. Its your property and you don't have to entertain there opinion if you don't want to. If you are grossly low on the R-value then I would add insulation but I think I would pass and wait till the winter to see how things are before adding insulation.
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
Thank you for all the excellent replies. I appreciate the input. I guess I'm grasping at straws as far as what else could cause these difficult issues with the cooling. They had just moved in and there wasn't much furniture in there and like I said we've seen several 100+ degree days. But the main reason I was looking into this insulation was to appease them and get the house cooled down, but it sounds like the insulation won't help that much in the hot summers? Am I right on that? Our winters are very mild here and I don't foresee the same issues we're seeing now. Any other items in a house to examine that may help?
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
and @Jim Adrian you make a good point; it is an older home (1961) and we're looking at about 3 inches or so of insulation so far below the R-38 standard (which I believe is 13"?).
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
With only 3" of insulation, R-10 at best, blown-in or batts, this is now a no brainer to me. Insulate the attic! Protect the bones/infrastructure of the house, which this is. This will allow your hvac system work less hard and last longer. You will get the tax write off on this as well. There may be an energy credit/rebate for this as well. Yes it sucks to spend money on something no one sees. This is something you can do yourself. Make sure you don't block the eave/soffit vents with the insulation. They make stryofoam baffles for this. If you use batts do not use the ones with the paper backing. This paper backing is a vapor barrier and will trap moisture in the attic and you will have mold from the moisture trapped by this. I would wait to cooler time of the year to do this. Now because this was probably was code back in the day, you would not have to install insulation if you don't want to.
I would also check the walls for insulation as you may not have any if you had so little in the attic. Spray foam (open-celled) is your best option for the walls, if you don't have any. This runs about $2-3 per sf. I have done this to my house and it made a world of difference. Money well spent. This lowered my thermostat set point by 3 degrees in the winter.
- Specialist · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 564 posts · 425 votes10y
I agree with @Jim Adrian - insulate the attic. As he says, make sure you don't block the soffit vents as you need air flow in an attic or you can have more problems. And while you are at it, blow in more insulation than you need. If you're doing the job anyways, you might as well try to get closer to an R-50.
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
If this becomes a DIY job, @Jim Adrian, would I just lay the rolls perpendicular across the existing insulation or remove the existing stuff and start fresh? Also, for climates like mine, where the main issue is cooling, would it make more sense to focus on attic foil/radiant barrier rather than, or in addition to, insulation?
You bought the house the way it is and I assume it had air conditioning. Since the tenants pay the utilities and the building is otherwise OK I would not waste any money on additional insulation. The benefit will be negligible and a waste of your money.
I am assuming these are your first tenants based on the fact that you seem to be wasting a lot of effort trying to make them happy. I would suggest you simply leave them alone. At this point in time you do not know if they are even worth the effort to cater to there comfort needs. As a landlord once they move in you do not want any further contact aside from your quarterly inspections.
- Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 286 posts · 159 votes10y
I've had not cooling complaints about these 100 plus days but there is nothing you can do. It takes time to cool a house.
- Investor · Woodbridge, VA · Member since 2015 · 476 posts · 197 votes10y
I would also look into an attic fan. We recently installed these on our primary since they were not there before and have see a noticeable difference, not necessarily a huge change on our bills (maybe 8-12 dollars a month) but definitely makes the interior of the home and the upstairs in particular FEEL much cooler.
While high utility bills suck, tenants are a lot less likely to complain if the house at least feels nice and cool. If they are paying high bills and still not getting a cool home then I can see where they would be upset.
Its a one time expense, I would go ahead and get the insulation and an attic fan done. Then you will never have to worry about it again.
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
Thank you all for the input. I appreciate it.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes10y
@Bret Weigel some people will leave the temperature high during the day, then get home and crank it down 10 degrees and expect it to be instantly cool. Or in the case of my wife, if it is not cooling fast enough, she turns it down lower. It takes time for AC to cool down a house. They need to keep the temperature consistently lower and not expect the AC to cool it instantly.
I would suggest light blocking blinds to keep the sun out. Insulation is a good idea but heat rises so I don't see it helping here.
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
Thank you, @Joe Splitrock; my wife does the same thing and drives me crazy!! I have told her 8000 times to cool it down gradually 2-3 degrees at a time...that's not the only thing she doesn't listen to me about, but I digress!
- Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 388 posts · 563 votes10y
I agree with the posters on improving your attic insulation, but nobody has mentioned heat sources from within the home. Quite often, people's air conditioning systems end up warring with people's lighting systems. For example, if you're using incandescent and/or halogen bulbs(most people do,) while in operation, ten 75 to 100 watt bulbs function as a small space heater would. Compact fluorescent bulbs are better, but they are not as good as the best solution- LED bulbs.
If your tenants have the cheap incandescent bulbs in their fixtures, I'd recommend swapping them out at your own expense- I won't link these, as I don't think BP likes links to outside pages, but I'd recommend Vivid Lighting's 60 watt replacement bulb, 2700 Kelvin, they're about $3.50 each on Amazon and use only 8 watts, or GE Lighting's 13909 bulb(replaces a 100 watt incandescent while only using 16 watts.) Stick to 2700 K on that one too- anything higher might appear too industrial/white. Hyperikon also makes pretty sweet bulbs, stay between 2700K and 3000K there as well. Any of these are easily searchable on Amazon.
If your tenants pay their electric bill, they'll thank you- the bulbs last for decades and will immediately reduce their electric bill- in summers, there's a double benefit as the air conditioning will not need to run as often. And if you swap these out- spending very little money and not much time, either- your tenants will really think you care, which is more valuable than anything I've written above. And guess what? They'll be right.
Michael
(if you have any special bulbs- like R7s 78mm or 118mm halogens, or T8, etc, please respond to this post and I'll give you some solutions for those)
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Originally posted by @Bret Weigel:
If this becomes a DIY job, @Jim Adrian, would I just lay the rolls perpendicular across the existing insulation or remove the existing stuff and start fresh? Also, for climates like mine, where the main issue is cooling, would it make more sense to focus on attic foil/radiant barrier rather than, or in addition to, insulation?
Keep this simple if you dyi... Keep in the existing insul in place unless its blown in cellulose. I believe you cant mix this but not sure. Rolls of batts is easy to work with. Stagger joints if you use multi layers. Dont waste time with radiant barriers unless you are very sustainable. Yes they work well but not worth the value on a rental for the extra cost.
It might not be a solution for you but it's just my experience with my 2 story home. Our master bed is facing west, it gets up to high 80s when the rest of the house is low 70s. Recently, we have solar panel installed on the roof, and the room temperature drop at least 5 degrees. And the shingles probably last a little longer since the panels are blocking the UV.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Bret Weigel:
Hi all, I had some tenants move in last month to a 3/2 SFR (I just closed on the property a month prior) and I really like them a lot. Good people. Anyways, the first day in, we realized the hot water heater needed replacing. The second day in, they realized that the house was not cooling to the temperature they had the thermostat set at (mind you we're experiencing a 100+ degree heat wave this summer and summers here are always hot); however, the house felt cool and the HVAC folks checked the unit and everything was running accordingly.
Long story short, I told them that I'd look at insulation in the attic as a possible solution. I received a quote and was wondering, since the equipment itself works fine, and adding the insulation will reduce their utility bills by 15-18%/month, does it make sense to ask them what they'd like to do (i.e. ask for some help in the bill) since it's not absolutely necessary to the house? Or what is my approach?Thank you.
I say no, don't do it. Your post says "the house felt cool and the HVAC folks checked the unit and everything was running accordingly."
Enough said. Your tenants are being high maintenance. There is no such home that instantly becomes 70 degrees when you turn the thermostat to 70. It's working. You had it checked out. It's hot outside and this is real life in hot weather with an a/c unit that's working correctly.
If you start climbing around and installing insulation because they say the house isn't cool enough, even though the house was cool and the HVAC guy says it's fine - they will have you tapdancing to all kinds of crazy whims.
One of the most important things you really need to learn as a landlord is how to say no. Even if you like them and they seem like great people, etc. There will always be a time when you have to say no.
So, here is your answer: "The HVAC guys say it's working fine, and doing more than that is not in the budget this year."
If they start blubbering, the one thing I did was use the "happy clause." "If you really aren't happy here, then I understand, and I'll let you out of the lease. But, you'll have to let me know by X date if you decide to take that option, and we can put it in writing,"
What helped me when I was first learning to do this, was to picture a childhood adult figure I knew I could never pull one over on, and that their word was final. They were fair and we had mutual respect, but I always knew that no meant no, so I'd not bother whining. Someone like a coach or teacher you had. That's the person you want to be. Fair and approachable, but decisive and firm and no-nonsense.
Anyway, your answer is no. It's easier if you memorize a sentence and don't explain or defend. Make it your mantra. You can still look nice and diplomatic, but you just don't engage in any explanations.
"The HVAC guy said it's working well, and the place is cool. Doing anything else is not in the budget this year. But, if you want out of the lease, let me know by X." "I understand you're hot and would like things to be different than they are, but, the HVAC guy said it's working well, and the place is cool. Doing anything else is not in the budget this year. But, if you want out of the lease, let me know by X." Then smile and walk away.
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 0 votes10y
Thank you, all. You're right; I'm learning on this whole landlord thing and a small part of me was thinking "if I don't keep them happy, they'll go elsewhere and I'll lose my rent", but in all actuality, the house and system is working as it should and I took steps to try and find anything major that may be causing the issues and didn't find any. Definitely a learning process and I appreciate everyone's input on this. Very helpful for me.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Bret Weigel:
Thank you, all. You're right; I'm learning on this whole landlord thing and a small part of me was thinking "if I don't keep them happy, they'll go elsewhere and I'll lose my rent", but in all actuality, the house and system is working as it should and I took steps to try and find anything major that may be causing the issues and didn't find any. Definitely a learning process and I appreciate everyone's input on this. Very helpful for me.
You're a nice person and you're smart to think about losing rent. However, if you found one tenant, you can find another one :-)
And my experience with these types of situations, is that they will back off and most likely stay.
I don't know if I already told you this one, but another thing you can do when tenants ask for upgrades, is to tell them that you were budgeting the next upgrade to happen with the next rent increase. But, if they want to pay the rent increase now, you can do the upgrade now.
They will say no 99 times out of 100. There will be that 1 in 100 that will shock you and say okay LOL. Which is fine :-)
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 1 vote10y
We do have renters ask about insulation, and utility bills, as they are in an extreme climate zone - Oklahoma. Regardless of how you feel about the renters, if they struggle to pay the utility bills, or are uncomfortable, you are risking retaining a good renter. The attic fan is an excellent idea, as they do make a world of difference, especially in dryer climates. Splitting the cost with a renter is also an option. We have successfully done that on many occasions when someone wants an upgrade that is beyond our current budget. You do need to set your limits on requests, as others have pointed out, but if you are increasing your homes comfort and value, why not?
I'm going to disagree with the herd on this one, especially the point that "insulation doesn't save you money in the heat" - attic insulation can make a huge difference in both comfort & cost in a cooling situation. I'm in Phoenix & going from r19 to r-50 in the attic made a huge difference in the comfort of my own home. You don't necessarily need to go that far, even a 4-6" "topper" of blown cellulose will greatly reduce air leakage into the attic & that's what you and your tenant both want. Adding 10" of blown cellulose to my 1800 sq/ft house was $1500, including labor.
Before the insulation, I couldn't get the house under 76 on 110 degree days, now my everyday set-point is 72 & I'm paying about $100/mo less than my neighbors during peak cooling season to maintain that super-low set-point. Obviously, it helps in winter as well - I can run the heat for ~15 minutes in the morning & not need it again all day most times.
Obviously, cost is a factor, but if your quotes are inline with what I paid, the payoff is huge & well worth doing.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes10y
@Bret Weigel I'm curious as to what was wrong with the water heater? Just wondering if it just wasn't heating the water hot enough (and they could have just turned up the temp on it), or if it was completely dead.
- Investor · Coeur d'Alene, ID · Member since 2016 · 551 posts · 218 votes10y
This is one of those cap -ex projects in my opinion. I would not insulate the attic until I turned the unit over, just to get the property up to code. (I try to do a project each time I turn the unti over just to stay updated) And then use this as a write off due to being energy savings and a repair.
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