Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
One of the tenants in my Triplex consistently pays rent late each month, the latest date paid so far has been the 11th of the month, the tenant adds to the fire by being impossible to reach, doesn't respond to calls or texts. Im located in Quebec, Canada where local laws heavily protect the tenant, basically can't do anything until the 21st of the month before taking any legal action and even at that the process is dauntingly long. The property is in a decent working class neighbourhood surrounded by businesses and generally has good renters, unfortunately I inherited this tenant on the purchase.. Anyone else see this kind of activity? Any feedback is highly appreciated :)
Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
We have two tenants who never pay due to their pay day schedules (and of course living paycheck to paycheck). it drives me nutso, but I have come to terms with it. You can try to institute stronger late fees, offer to accept the rent in two payments, work to align it to the date when they can pay, or if the tenant is otherwise great, just roll with it. It would be interesting to know if you get it at the same time of the month whether you nag or not. We at least don't have to nag.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
Hi @Michele Fischer, thanks for your reply and glad to hear im not the only one in this situation dealing with the pay check to pay check tenant... drives me nuts too! Sadly here in Canada, or at least in Quebec, theres no such thing as late fees (insanity) so the only thing we can do is nag... If i look back i get it on the Thursday that pay checks come in..go figure
St Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2013 · 575 posts · 408 votes
9y
@Account Closed I am not at all familiar with rental laws in Quebec but there must be some form used in the first stage to give notice that you may apply for an eviction. If you have to wait until the 21st, fine, but have a form written up and ready to go then serve it on the tenant. You need to show that you mean business, and that means consistently late payments will be met with an appropriate response. You are better off without this tenant. I would make it plain that bad behaviour is unwelcome. The tenant either has been doing this for years with the old landlord and thinks it is OK to do this with you, or else they are testing you as the new landlord to see what they can get away with. It is time to set boundaries.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
@Stephen E. My thoughts exactly, the laws in Quebec are nonsense, only on the 21st day can the first notice filing for eviction be sent ($66) and six weeks after that a hearing is had, but if the tenant pays before, the whole thing is scrapped and everything resumes back to normal. Really no way to deal with late payments in Quebec
St Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2013 · 575 posts · 408 votes
9y
@Account Closed The only way to deal with this is to be disciplined. Serve a notice every 21st if rent is not paid. Is there a way of getting an order for costs so that the tenant has to pay for this inconvenience? Is there a provision that repeated late payment constitutes grounds for an eviction? There is supposed to be something along these lines in Ontario but I have heard it takes some pretty extreme behavior before the Landlord and Tenant Board will authorise an eviction for this alone.
You could just try cash for keys. Offer a few hundred towards moving costs and say that their payment practices are no longer welcome at your property. This tenant is a headache and your time is better spent growing your business, not chasing irritants.
In Ontario you can serve a tenant with an N4 eviction notice but you do not have to pay the LTB until you file for an application to evict, and at that stage you have to pay $190. Is it a similar process in Quebec or do you have to pay even if just handing the tenant a form? This is worth thinking about.
St Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2013 · 575 posts · 408 votes
9y
@Joseph Venne Renting a property to tenants is not something to be entered into casually in Ontario. You really need to read the Residential Tenancies Act to get a sense of the bureaucracy and over regulation as well as the bias in the system towards tenants. It is very easy for small landlords with one property or a handful of properties to get taken. Either be prepared to spend the time necessary to understand the system or sell the property and invest in a stock market index fund. Whatever you do, if you decide to lease your unit use good forms such as the lease and tenant application forms sold by FRPO or LPMA. Be sure to run credit checks, confirm rental history and obtain conclusive proof of income. You need to read up on the Human Rights Code as well as one wrong word could get you into thousands of dollars worth of trouble. Look for landlords associations and see if they have educational programs that might help you get up to speed. As soon as you have a nonpaying tenant, serve them with an N4 and hand the problem over to a decent lawyer. When things get to the LTB any mistakes the tenant makes will be papered over, any mistakes in process that you make could cost you dearly. I am afraid that is the way things are in Ontario.
Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
9y
@Account Closed, you have my sympathies, and I thought California was too tenant friendly! Since this is the place you chose to invest, then learn the laws of the province, and it sounds like you are doing that already. Is there a way for a landlord to not renew the lease or agreement? Hopefully you won't have to wait it out until the lease comes up for renewal. It may just be a matter of not accepting rent and going through the eviction process.
Late rents happen for a couple of reasons: 1) Landlord accepts rent after the due date without issuing a three day notice prior to receiving it 2) Tenant tells landlord in advance it will be late and landlord consents and does not enforce fee and/or issue a three day notice. Before long, the late pay becomes the norm, not only for the tenant but also a pattern for the courts to see if it goes to eviction. Renting to late payers can happen to any landlord if it is not said with great emphasis and enforced every time that RENT IS DUE ON THE FIRST. THE LATE FEE KICKS IN ON THE 3RD or the 5TH IF NOT RECEIVED BY 5pm. Any rent paid after the due date is late. If this is not stressed to the tenant from the beginning, they get the impression that the period between the due date and the time the late fee kicks in is a grace period. This is why many tenants think it is acceptable to wait until the 5th to pay rent. Landlords enforce this view by accepting rent after the late fee and not issuing notice prior to accepting payment.
As far as not being able to contact your tenant, that is a problem. Before allowing any tenant possession to your property, make sure you have accurate information from their application - cell phones, emails, work addresses and phone numbers, emergency contacts - and take the time to update them when they change. This becomes very important when you have to contact the tenant and serve notices.
When I am screening applicants for my rentals or my clients' rentals, I pay attention to how responsive they are in getting me the verification needed to qualify as well as returning my calls and emails. I also look for timeliness for keeping appointments for showings. If they're late or forget to fill in information on their application or worse, expect you to track it down for them, move on to the next one. In my experience an applicant's conduct during the screening process does not change when becoming a tenant.
Good luck to you and share with the community what the outcome was with the tenant.
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y
@Account Closed posted about, where the pay dates just didn't line up. I ended up prorating the week and a half around tax time (when I knew they had the $ to do so) and we changed the due date to a date they could agree to each month.
Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Only 5 things you could do in my view (or combination of):
Refine your screening methodology to select better tenants in the future. It would be difficult to screen for late payments if they are not recorded until 21st of the month, but you could set stricter credit score and income to rent ratios and that may help. Also, never rent to anyone who is even 5 min late to a viewing appointment ... you'll know they'll always be late.
Strictly enforce the law, serve notices ASAP, and don't stop the eviction process until paid in full. Sounds like they haven't been later than 21 days yet, but if they ever are and you listen to their sob story and let them slide awhile, then guess what, you just gave them permission to pay late every time. This goes equally for any terms of the lease.
In the future buy in a nicer neighborhood. This is the number one way to avoid this, but doesn't help you too much at this very moment.
If legal in your market, charge a late fee that escalates the later they are. If not legal, you could look into structuring it as higher rent, but a reduction if paid on time ... this sometimes gets around such laws, but consult a local attorney if in question. This may not stop the issue, but at least it will partially compensate you for the hassle.
Let it be until it gets out of hand. Not recommended.
Property Management · Marietta, GA · Member since 2015 · 45 posts · 25 votes
9y
Communication is the key. I do have one case. tenants always late paying their rent. Even though they paid late fees the payment date kept getting later.
So I agreed to give them 1 month break so they can keep up. We have that 1 month rent in installment. Then change the due date to biweekly according to their pay schedule. (we have this in writing via lease amendment)
Now they pay on time. They installment Is almost paid in full.
We all happy.
I always try to work out the issue first. Most tenants are good, they just bad with money management that's why they are tenants.
But if they are bad tenants. I would Eviction without a blink. Life is too short to deal with bad tenants it's not worth any amount of money.
I've seen a couple of property management companies do some interesting things with tenets like this. When their lease is up make is mandatory that they resign a 12 month (if they are good tenants besides that). In your new lease you state that the rent is X amount higher then normal but give them a discount if they do direct deposit or pay before the 2nd every month. I've seen multiple places do this with tenants who pay late to curb the late fee issue and give them incentive to pay on time.
But like everyone has said here..... Read the rules of your local area
Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
The application and process for unpaid rent (if you are able to read French, I would recommend following the Régie site en français as the English translation is frequently cumbersome). BTW: Filing costs are now $74.00 as of 2016.11.01
Investor · SE, MI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 461 votes
9y
Hello Elias,
Sorry you are going through this, it must be frustrating when there isn't really much you can do about it. It sounds like the only thing you could possibly do is not renew their lease whenever that lease is up, and if it was me and I thought I could get a tenant that was more compliant, that is exactly what I would do.
There are a couple of reasons they are paying late:
1. They can get away with it. They have paid this way consistently and there has never been a real consequence, so they will continue to pay this way. Nothing you can do about this except have them move along once the lease is up.
2. The timing of their paychecks dictates how they pay and they are living hand to mouth- they don't have enough savings to pay when they should and don't have the discipline to start saving. There isn't MUCH you can do about this given that you can't charge late fees, unless it actually bothers them to pay "late" each month. We have one tenant that gets paid the first Wednesday of each month, so there are times he just doesn't have the money to pay us by the 5th. We knew that when signing the lease, and since the tenant seemed like he was trying to get his finances in order, we gave him a 6 month grace period in which our late fees wouldn't kick in until the 10th of the month. We felt that 6 months was enough time for them to save up to be able to pay on time regardless of which day he got paid, and figured in the long run it would help them budget and save for their future. We're 5 months in, so time will tell how it goes once that grace period ends, but so far they have by the 5th when he has been paid by the 5th.
The next thing you'll have to somewhat plan for is that when the time comes to move, it will be difficult for them since they likely don't have the cash necessary (here it's one month's rent plus security deposit typically) to move to a new place. They will likely want their deposit back in order to even leave, so be prepared to say no.
Québec is a very different place when it comes to residential rentals. Le Régie du Logement has a long history of humanitarian activism and is traditionally pro-tenant. Unless things have changed recently, there is no security deposit or last month's rent collected at the start of a tenancy.
Québec also has the jour du déménagement, {English: Moving Day} which falls on July 1st. These days it is merely a "tradition" - and one that I hear is falling away - though, in my youth, it was the consequence of mandated, fixed-term leases. The history of "moving day" dates back to Cardinal Richelieu and the seigneurs/seigneuries of New France.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
Hi @Dawn Anastasi thanks for your input, unfortunately here in Quebec there is no such thing as telling a tenant you need the property vacant to remodel :(
Investor · SE, MI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 461 votes
9y
@Roy N.- I know things are very different over the border, but it sounds like it might be easier for these people to move on to another place if they don't have to come up with a sizable amount of cash to do so, great news!
Are there deposits at all, what DO you collect before letting someone move in? In Michigan, we can get the first month's rent plus the security deposit (max 1.5x monthly rent) but in many other states they get the first AND last month's rent plus deposit.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
HI @Penny Clark thanks for your reply! Sadly once again the late fee is nonexistent here in Quebec Canada, theres not much landlords could do except for file late fee applications with the local Government and then wait for them to serve something to the tenant.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
@Matthew Olszak thanks for taking the time to reply! Glad to hear you had some similar situations and i think my situation very closely aligns with yours, the tenant will eventually pay, their finances are just too much of a mess for it to be consistent i.e. living pay check to pay check like in @Account Closed example.
Are there deposits at all, what DO you collect before letting someone move in? In Michigan, we can get the first month's rent plus the security deposit (max 1.5x monthly rent) but in many other states they get the first AND last month's rent plus deposit.
Kelly,
You collect a signature on the lease.
Every province is different: some have security deposits ranging from a half-month's rent to a full month's rent {I do not believe any allow more than 1-month, but am not absolutely certain}; Ontario has no deposit, but allows the collection of the "last month's" rent; In Québec, you collect neither.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Mid West, East Coast · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
@Account Closed it's not uncommon in my market...I really enjoy the late fees and pet fees that I put on top of their rent if it's late. In some cases I get an additional $80 when tenant is late. No very uncommon in C-D class neighborhood where I invest. Best of luck to you.
Investor · Montréal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 17 votes
9y
@Roy N. as usual always providing quality knowledge and help, thanks! If im not mistaken, this application can be filed on the day after a late rent has been made correct?
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
9y
@Account Closed I have one tenant that pays a few days late occasionally and it is usually do to the way paychecks fall that month. They always communicate with me and pay the late fee. So although they are late, I know what day I will get the money and I get paid for my trouble.
In my experience people who avoid phone calls or worse yet lie to you are major trouble. I would have a discussion with them and let them know if they are unable to pay by the 1st, they need to contact you and make payment arrangements by the 1st. Tell them if they are going to avoid phone calls or not return your calls, that it will lead to major problems for them.
If they cannot be responsive, then follow legal steps to get them out.
Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Correct ... your application may also include interest, application fees ($74.00) and reasonable administrative costs related to the pursuit of the application to the Régie.