Should I kick them out?

Should I kick them out?

Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes

A 3/1 townhouse I own in Baltimore was trashed by a Section 8 tenant who moved out at the end of 2016. I spent more than I expected getting it back in shape. Then had difficulty renting it for several months, for various reasons, some of them my fault. 

Finally brought in a property manager, who immediately placed a tenant, one of his workers, who for some time has wanted to move out of the efficiency he occupied with wife and child. 

So far so good. I liked that the tenant would have a work relationship with the property manager, so would have an extra reason to not mess up the unit. They were set to move in first week of August. 

BUT--the tenant, named Cesar, immediately brought in 2 relatives and their 2 children after he signed the lease for only himself and his wife and child. That makes 7 people—the legal limit for a 3 bedroom house. Had he revealed his plans up front, and had his relatives signed the lease with him, maybe I'd feel differently. But he chose to do it in this sneaky way instead, thereby losing my trust.

Last week he also held a big family party with a lot of yelling and noise that caused a disturbance in the neighborhood (a neighbor called me to complain). I have built good relationships with the neighbors, many of whom are elder homeowners, who watch my property protectively. BTW, it was the neighbor who revealed that there were a great many more people in the house than I'd bargained for. 

Finally, the property manager screened them and I didn't get involved (foolishly, it turns out). But what I've learned subsequently makes me think the family is in the country illegally. Cesar's ID is a provisional driver’s license. His wife’s ID is her driver’s license from Guatemala. 

Now, if they had shown better judgment, their legal status wouldn’t bother me. But the way things are these days, if someone calls the police, say, for a noise violation, they could wind up deported! This is not farfetched under this administration, such things are happening in the community daily. So if they don't have the sense to act responsibly and protect themselves in this insane environment, they put my investment in jeopardy.

Also I have no idea about his relatives—their legal status, their jobs, their income, their credit, their criminal records--the manager has yet to screen them. I also worry about the wear and tear of seven people in the unit even if technically it does not exceed the legal number.

Property manager thinks I should let them stay, all 7 of them, but negotiate a higher rent and a 2-year lease. He thinks we can do quarterly inspections to ensure they are taking care of the unit, and make the tenant responsible for getting them fixed. 

I truly don’t know what to do. Should I let the unit be empty again after all those months? Let this family stay, even if I don't trust them? 

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious in this situation. Please tell me what it is! 

Many thanks,

Nancy Roth

Washington, DC

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Gary NelsonBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Branson, MO · Member since 2016 · 141 posts · 93 votes
9y
I vote to replace the property manager. All of this should have never happened in the first place. I wouldn't tolerate it - hold the manager accountable.
Gary Nelson Real Estate, EXP Realty, LLC554 Reviews
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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Charlie MacPherson:

    @Nancy Roth You want appalling? My E&O provider told me of a case where an agent helped a renter get the apartment she wanted - but in the course of conversation, he asked her where she was from.

    She replied, "Venezuela".  He said, "oh, that's nice" - and proceeded to get her into the rental she wanted.

    SIMPLY BECAUSE HE ASKED THE QUESTION, she sued as national origin is a protected class.  

    Between court costs, attorney fees for both sides and penalties, he paid out just shy of $100,000, even though no actual discrimination occurred.

    That's appalling. 

     That sounds like BS, but if it's not the guy sounds like an idiot for not having insurance, because if something similar happened to me my insurer would have been paying. There have to be damages to be awarded money, and I would have appealed. Yes, frivilous lawsuits happen all the time but the appeal system flushes the vast majority of unfair cases. 

    @Joe Splitrock always gives good advice!

    Skyline Properties
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  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @JD Martin.  I have no reason to disbelieve him.  I'm not positive, but I don't think there are actual damages required under Fair Housing to be awarded a judgment.

    Then again, this is Massachusetts.  While there are 7 protected classes in Fair Housing at the federal level, there are 15 here in MA.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Charlie MacPherson There are 19 protected classes in DC! That includes income source--so you can't turn down a voucher holder just because you don't want to deal with the bureaucracy. It's considered income source discrimination. You HAVE to take them unless you have another applicant you can prove is more qualified. Insane! I know a lot of people who refuse to do rentals in DC--and the city wonders why they have an affordable housing shortage.

    Maryland keeps threatening to force landlords to accept HCVP clients, whether they want to or not--but haven't so far. 

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Bob B. Yes and yes. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Nancy Roth:

    @Joe Splitrock What a clear and helpful dissection of the issues. Thanks for this thoughtful reply and for taking the time to write it. 

    I wasn't holding their legal status against them, and didn't mean to express an opinion here about current immigration policy. I was just wondering whether their status poses a risk to my investment, especially if they continue to conduct themselves badly.

    Assuming they are not here legally, the risk is that they could be deported. Then you are left with an apartment full of stuff and no legal recourse. You will have to pay to clean their apartment and pay for storage of their property. You will incur lost rents and your PM will probably charge you new leasing fees. 

    They don't sound like hardened criminals. Complaining neighbors is fairly common. I would tell the neighbors to ask them directly to keep the noise down. Neighbors need to work things out without you mediating. Part of treating neighbors with respect is dealing directly with them instead of calling the landlord or police. That is what I tell neighbors when they call me.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth, I'm actually really surprised more people aren't suggesting you remove the tenants like @Deanna McCormick and @Bob B.. Maybe I'm spoiled as far as being able to fill vacancies easily. Is the neighborhood that bad that every prospective tenant has "something off"?

    I self manage my properties, and here are some of my take aways:

    1.) No matter how long you do it, you still can never tell who the good/bad ones are just by talking to them.

    2.) Stick to your qualification standards no matter what.

    3.) Anyone who breaks the rules will continue the pattern no matter what you say to them 99% of the time. Sometimes it's intentional and a lot of times they have bad habits that they just can't/don't care to fix.

    4.) Better to evict a bad/untruthful tenant and move on, cause it's less painful in the long run. Complaints from the neighbors and every other negative incident is going to mess with your psyche, and thus the rest of your business activities just as much, if not more than managing your property yourself. I say replace the tenants and keep going until you get good ones in there with a better PM.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Nancy Roth:

    @Charlie MacPherson I thought of that too. I don't think people who have no legal status are in a protected class.

    You would be wrong in your assumption.  Their immigration status has zero to do with whether they are a protected class or not.

  • Investor · La Jolla, CA · Member since 2016 · 66 posts · 169 votes
    9y

    Hopefully they get deported.

  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth Moving people in is an issue. You certainly want to know who is in your units, and also want to ensure that the original tenants aren't just lending their name to someone who would never pass your screening - IE someone with a bad criminal background or a history of evictions. If you would have let them move in with that many people if they were upfront about it, I'd let them stay because then your decision to make them move would be based only upon your feelings being hurt from them lying. But at the very least get an application from every adult who is there now and go from there.

    As to the noise - I'd tell the neighbors what I tell my tenants: They need to talk to the people making the noise first, and if that doesn't resolve it, call the police. There is little I can do.

    And lastly on the legal status - I don't know if the legal status would be a protected class, but certainly your inkling that they aren't legal is based on factors that are protected. If it were a white family and the wife had a driver's license from London, would you make this same assumption? Would the idea even cross your mind? Sometimes without any bad intention we allow ourselves to draw conclusions like this, and that's one thing the law is out here to protect against. For the future if this is a concern, add Proof of Legal Residency or Citizenship to your screening guidelines as a requirement.

  • Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
    9y
    Girl, you been played. I would get rid of the entire lot & there wouldn't be enough cuss words I could manufacture for the PM. I have more problems with tenants sneaking in unauthorized occupants than the actual lease-holding tenant. I'm currently on my second tenant this year who I've had to kick to the curb for the same reason.
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    I don't know what you will decide but if you let them stay do not extend to a two year lease. Think about it, If you are having an issue you don't increase the time you will have to deal with it.
  • New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Tough situation. Best of luck!

  • Investor · Post Falls, ID · Member since 2016 · 606 posts · 699 votes
    9y

    I cringe every time I hear a phrase from a LL like "kick them out".  I don't kick people out,  I enforce rental agreement provisions.  When tenants do not follow the terms the rental agreement  I terminate the tenancy.  All 100% legal, and all within my rights as a LL.  I follow the law with regards to Security Deposits.

    LL face enough discrimination and bad press in the eyes of the public without us using terms like "kick them out".    Be careful.  That language and attitude can come back and bite you. 

    I will get off my soapbox now.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Bettina F. well I hope we are among friends here and can use shorthand. But point well taken.

  • altamonte springs, FL · Member since 2014 · 8 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    Hello Nancy,

    It seems to me you have another property management issue. This is a prime example of why I have not moved to PM's with my rentals yet. Personally I would fire your PM and continue to manager yourself, do you have the ability to hire an assistant to help you with the screening process? I find that is the most time consuming part of managing my properties. Maybe you don't need a manager but an assistant or agent to source out your tenant screening to.

    As for the unauthorized tenant, the tone has already been set. If you don't at the very least get the unapproved tenants out they will think they are in control. I have already seen this in my business by relaxing late fees. Every time I bend on my rules from that moment forward you can bet they will be late again the next month and expect the same thing. I had to learn the hard way YOU must set the tone early and keep them honest especially in the first lease. I alway find a reason to be at the property at least once a month for the first three months of a new tenants lease until i'm comfortable with them and get a feel for what kind of tenants they will be. This way you don't have to depend on the neighbors to tell you there are too many people in the house.

    Hope I could help,

    Matt

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2017 · 12 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    Hi Nancy, I am a total newbie to all of this, but do you have a lawyer you can contact about the situation? It seems there is some uncertainty here about legal status and protected class, allowing additional family members to move in, etc. Good to know all your legal options!

  • Developer · Closter, NJ · Member since 2016 · 392 posts · 109 votes
    9y
    Hello ! I think you should let them stay and focus on the bigger picture. Making money ! If your able to get them to sign a lease and higher rent why not. Why not worry about getting another property instead of than how who and when to lease out this apartment. Have a great day
  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @David Michael Yes Yes Yes. Some folks get so roped up on controlling their tenants and making them conform to the rules that don't so much affect their tenancy, that they lose focus of the big goal here. Well said.

  • Oakland, CA · Member since 2017 · 133 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Give them a 30-days move out notice. Do not let them stay. This is a business, not a charity. I would never rent it to relatives, friends, co-worker, not anybody who have a relationship, except free rent for my own parents and my own children. If you rent it to someone who has a little bit of relationship, disadvantage are: 1. You cannot raise their rent even though the rental market is pretty hot like now (and all other landlords are raising rent on their tenant) because they will get mad on you and lost the friendship if you raise their rent. 2. You cannot deduct anything (cleaning or damages) from their security deposit when they move out because they will get mad on you And lost the friendship if you do so. 3. You cannot send them move-out notice when you want to sell the house for a profit 10 years later because they will get mad on you And lost the friendship if you do so. We can only "rent" the place (for free) to a related person only if you are very closed to them and be prepared that they would not stop paying rent in the future and would not leave the place in the future. (Those closed people are own parents and own children)
  • Lincolnshire, IL · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    It sucks. Here are some options to consider:

    1) Because you had this property empty for a long time and not making you any money - keep them, don't kick them out. You need the rent.

    2) Because the Tenant "broke" the Lease terms by housing additional, unauthorized tenants, you should rewrite the Lease by officially adding the new tenants + raising the Rent and Deposit amount.

    3) Because these extra headaches happened to you because of your PM, you should strongly consider replacing your PM. That's what you pay them for - not to have to deal with this yourself.

    4) Because this is your 4th PM, perhaps you should hire them more carefully. Hope BP will help as a source on how to hire a right PM.

    "BE SLOW TO HIRE AND QUICK TO FIRE" i don't know the author of this. But yes.  Best of luck!

  • Investor · Willow Grove, PA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    There is a saying "when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time". The PM has already shown you who they are, by not properly vetting the tenants as they were obligated  to do. Your tenants have shown that they do not have any respect for their landlord, don't take it personally, because they will treat any future landlords with the same disrespect. You should expect to have continued problems with all parties concerned.

    I am sorry that before this, you dealt with even bigger problems. I think if there wasn't a financial need, you would have already made your decision.  I would recommend, voiding their current lease, because they have violated it. Request credit/background checks on the other family members, which may even encourage them to leave. Offer everyone month to month leases.

    It is very important to ensure that the PM and tenants know that you are in charge or else things will begin to escalate into other issues.

    Don't let bad tenants and bad property managers run the show. You worked hard for this property and it will always belong to you. I am going to make the affirmation, since you are a real estate agent, that you will make a huge commission on a sale, that will provide the security needed to maintain the property while you find suitable tenants and a better property manager.

    Things always work out in the end!

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    The PM goes and the tenant stays as long as they pay the rent and don't trash the place.  

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed Ummm, I don't know these people. Much of what you've written here has no application to the question I asked. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience in your past rental practices but it has nothing to do with what I'm facing today.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth Definitely collect another deposit. In these types of cases, I've known others landlords to collect double deposits for unforeseen circumstances. Good luck! 

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Matthew Olszak and @David Michael you guys have a great point. But I also think there's value in the point that many have raised, which is about setting a tone early in the relationship. It's not about controlling the tenants so much as controlling the property. They do not get to do whatever they want, even if they pay the rent. They've already shown, at the very outset, that they have no regard for the most basic boundaries and I have no reason to believe they will change that. The manager thinks they can be made to change. But one thing I keep hearing from these comments is, how good a job has this manager done in putting them in there? I didn't even enter the conversation considering that, and the insight is really helpful.

    This has been a great conversation, thanks to everyone for writing.

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