Should I kick them out?

Should I kick them out?

Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes

A 3/1 townhouse I own in Baltimore was trashed by a Section 8 tenant who moved out at the end of 2016. I spent more than I expected getting it back in shape. Then had difficulty renting it for several months, for various reasons, some of them my fault. 

Finally brought in a property manager, who immediately placed a tenant, one of his workers, who for some time has wanted to move out of the efficiency he occupied with wife and child. 

So far so good. I liked that the tenant would have a work relationship with the property manager, so would have an extra reason to not mess up the unit. They were set to move in first week of August. 

BUT--the tenant, named Cesar, immediately brought in 2 relatives and their 2 children after he signed the lease for only himself and his wife and child. That makes 7 people—the legal limit for a 3 bedroom house. Had he revealed his plans up front, and had his relatives signed the lease with him, maybe I'd feel differently. But he chose to do it in this sneaky way instead, thereby losing my trust.

Last week he also held a big family party with a lot of yelling and noise that caused a disturbance in the neighborhood (a neighbor called me to complain). I have built good relationships with the neighbors, many of whom are elder homeowners, who watch my property protectively. BTW, it was the neighbor who revealed that there were a great many more people in the house than I'd bargained for. 

Finally, the property manager screened them and I didn't get involved (foolishly, it turns out). But what I've learned subsequently makes me think the family is in the country illegally. Cesar's ID is a provisional driver’s license. His wife’s ID is her driver’s license from Guatemala. 

Now, if they had shown better judgment, their legal status wouldn’t bother me. But the way things are these days, if someone calls the police, say, for a noise violation, they could wind up deported! This is not farfetched under this administration, such things are happening in the community daily. So if they don't have the sense to act responsibly and protect themselves in this insane environment, they put my investment in jeopardy.

Also I have no idea about his relatives—their legal status, their jobs, their income, their credit, their criminal records--the manager has yet to screen them. I also worry about the wear and tear of seven people in the unit even if technically it does not exceed the legal number.

Property manager thinks I should let them stay, all 7 of them, but negotiate a higher rent and a 2-year lease. He thinks we can do quarterly inspections to ensure they are taking care of the unit, and make the tenant responsible for getting them fixed. 

I truly don’t know what to do. Should I let the unit be empty again after all those months? Let this family stay, even if I don't trust them? 

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious in this situation. Please tell me what it is! 

Many thanks,

Nancy Roth

Washington, DC

1Reply
153 views

Most Popular Reply

Gary NelsonBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Branson, MO · Member since 2016 · 141 posts · 93 votes
9y
I vote to replace the property manager. All of this should have never happened in the first place. I wouldn't tolerate it - hold the manager accountable.
Gary Nelson Real Estate, EXP Realty, LLC554 Reviews
See this reply in the discussion

72 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Culver City, CA · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    9y
    Let them stay. They used up two strikes by lying about the number of occupants and having a loud party. Let them know you're giving them one last chance. It will harm both you and them to avoid this discussion and go straight to an eviction.
  • Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 10 votes
    9y
    It sucks that they snuck in more people then specifically stated. If on principle, you could let them go. However, if you could raise your rent by a MINIMUM of 25% and get them to double their deposit, you have a win. Hispanic communities have more people in a house, which can lead to more wear and tear. Who are the extra tenants? Are they 80 year old grandparents who can barley move or are they kids who break things? Concerning their citizenship: a loud noise ticket is a city charge and in 99.9% of cases the individual is not taken to jail. A no sdl arrest is more likely. Even then, you would just evict those left over and restart. I would look for a new property manager. You have to place more trust in them then your tenants. If they disregard contracts to get spaces filled, they are gonna hurt you in the end.
  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Braden Downs Extra tenants are the brother and sister of Cesar, and they each have a young child under age 5. So yes, definitely wear and tear. Good point about noise complaint, but I was using that as an example. A woman in my area was deported for a traffic violation. A man was recently picked up after dropping his child off at school. So it doesn't seem to take much, and I'm really sorry they are not conducting themselves differently. I like your idea of a 25% or more rent increase and put the extra away for the wear and tear. Thanks for writing.

    @Andre Rosemberg Very helpful. I haven't met them yet, I was kinda hoping not to have to deal with them (isn't that the manager's job?). But maybe I have to be the one to cut to the chase. Many thanks.

  • Lake Jackson, TX · Member since 2013 · 119 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    I vote stay

  • Kim Meredith HamptonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · St Petersburg · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth raise the rent and deposit and go with it for the remainder of the year with quarterly inspections.

    Just an FYI, my policy manual states that we do not rent to employees in any of our homes Ever! No reason to mix the two 

  • Gary NelsonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Branson, MO · Member since 2016 · 141 posts · 93 votes
    9y
    I vote to replace the property manager. All of this should have never happened in the first place. I wouldn't tolerate it - hold the manager accountable.
    Gary Nelson Real Estate, EXP Realty, LLC554 Reviews
  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    I would tell the property manager to get rid of them or you will be changing PMs.

    If you intend to operate as a successful business when you see things that you do not approve of you take action. Coming on a forum and asking what to do tells me you are not in control of your business and really don't care that much how it is operated. Either you care or you don't, you do not need our advice to tell you how you choose to operate your business.

    Since you are asking I am guessing you really don't care. Let your PM operate your business for you as he chooses and hope for the best. 

    He will probably place his business relationship with you ahead of his family....right.

    Maybe you should rethink your desire to remain in this business.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Kim Meredith Hampton that is a great insight, and it's exactly opposite my first instinct, which was to see the tie between tenant and property manager as giving the tenant an extra stake in the relationship. May I ask you to elaborate on that no-renting-to-employees policy?  Is that out of a bad experience, or is it strictly preventive of a conflict of interest? 

    @Gary Nelson yeah, that has crossed my mind. This is already my third property manager. I really need support with this property and the prospect of searching for yet another manager is disappointing, to say the least. I'm more inclined to keep him in and force him to deal with this, since he had a part in it, rather than start over. Extremely frustrating. 

    Thanks to everyone for contributing. 

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth Just be careful about what you say.  

    Even though you don't mean to discriminate, you could have to defend a claim regarding national origin - a federally protected class.

    You may be completely innocent, but the cost of defense can be staggering.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Thomas S. I don't think your comments are accurate or called for. I am concerned and involved in my business but I don't know all the answers all the time and I do go to colleagues when I need help solving a problem. Bigger Pockets is just an extension of my local community of landlords, and it's refreshing and helpful to receive these responses, whether or not I decide to act on them. This is how I learn and improve my business and do it better.

    Maybe you should go get some breakfast, Thomas S. 

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Charlie MacPherson I thought of that too. I don't think people who have no legal status are in a protected class. I think I'm on pretty solid ground that they violated the terms of the lease, twice. 

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
    9y

    Only two questions should matter here 1. Are they messing your house up 2. Are they paying the bills. 

    1. ? Pay for the damage or ill take it from your security deposit. (Kicking them out hurts you, avoid. You have to pay changeover/new tenant/ costs.) 

    2. They pay bills? Then see number 1. They dont? Get out. 

    P.s. More people?? Who cares. Unless it violates 1 or 2. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Marietta, GA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 10 votes
    9y
    I think making the situation work for you is best. Letting them stay with the rent increase allows you to build depleted funds and stablize your situation. My word of caution is to prepare yourself for dealing with the issue - your property manager. If you feel the property manager is worth holding on to and grooming maybe having the PM draft the new lease changes, conference with the tenants to ensure full understanding of your terms and this is their last chance before being terminated. If they are illegal, english literacy and system comprehension may be an issue. Lastly, take this time while you have a paying tenant to develop your plan on how you will terminate the lease. Familarize your self with the eviction process for your county, list phone numbers, plan for attracting new tenants, etc.
  • Kim Meredith HamptonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · St Petersburg · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth yes, from a bad experience of somebody we helped (employee)with one of our rentals, and ended up firing her, then that led to an eviction. Did not look good on us, nor with our client. I only needed that to happen once, we also do not hire friends or relatives

  • Lake Charles, LA · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Charlie MacPherson:

    @Nancy Roth Just be careful about what you say.  

    Even though you don't mean to discriminate, you could have to defend a claim regarding national origin - a federally protected class.

    You may be completely innocent, but the cost of defense can be staggering.

     Nothing that an anonymous phonemail to ICE couldn't fix ;)

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth  It turns out that illegal immigrants ARE protected under fair housing.

    http://www.equalhousing.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Clearly you need to address the fact your property manager hasn't met the standards you expected, by permitting this number of occcupants in this townhome. I wouldn't let it go by one more day without addressing it. Give notice of infraction for noise. 

    I'd get them all out and start over, Tell the PM either you relocate these people and rerent or I'm getting someone that can properly manage. YOU set the maximum number of people you will let rent the house. DON'T let the PM do that. 

    What was the rental criteria,, valid ID with valid SSN is basic and why was this not adhered to as well as credit and whatever you had set up to begin with.

     This is a mess and it's only going to get more involved and worse.  NOBODY that's not approved should have signed or be permitted to be on a lease.. and WOW PM want's you to extend the whole mess by signing a 2 year lease.. CRAZY.

    Put an end to nightmare. 

    Download your state's landlord tenant laws so you can better understand what your PM is suppose to do and what needs to be done. 

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Charlie MacPherson Got it, thanks. OMG. That's appalling. 

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth You want appalling? My E&O provider told me of a case where an agent helped a renter get the apartment she wanted - but in the course of conversation, he asked her where she was from.

    She replied, "Venezuela".  He said, "oh, that's nice" - and proceeded to get her into the rental she wanted.

    SIMPLY BECAUSE HE ASKED THE QUESTION, she sued as national origin is a protected class.  

    Between court costs, attorney fees for both sides and penalties, he paid out just shy of $100,000, even though no actual discrimination occurred.

    That's appalling. 

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Deanna McCormick Thank you.  As I mentioned, this is my third property manager.  Based on previous experience, I'm not at all sure I can get someone better, plus if he goes and they go, I'm stuck with a continued vacancy. There is no painless solution to this. 

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth  Painless no.. but either you learn to manage the properties yourself or you figure out WHY you've on your 3rd property manager..

    Your bio says your a real estate person.. I would expect you should have better sense of what it takes to be in the rental business,, it's not a hobby,, and unless you MANAGE your Managers you'll be taken advantage of.. Read and question any PM contracts you sign. I doubt you could do worse by doing it yourself. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth the legal status discussion brings up emotional responses from people. People are bleeding hearts and think, oh they have kids let them stay. That is not logical reasoning. You are running a rental business, not an sanctuary shelter. As far as the political climate, the president is just enforcing the laws, which is the role of the executive branch. Call your congressman if you have a beef with the laws. Calling the INS would be kind of a crappy thing to do.

    Legal status has little to do with this discussion and shouldn't change how you handle the situation. In fact, it is wrong to make accusations you cannot support. I would't even go down that road. Stick to the problem which is extra occupants and a noise complaint.

    You have two choices:

    1. Ask the extra people to leave. Give them 30 days to comply and consequence of them not complying is that you start the eviction process. This is assuming your lease has verbiage prohibiting adding occupants without approval. 

    2. Let them stay. Have the PM properly screen the additional people (financial and criminal checks). You cannot legally increase the rent because they are family members and that would be discrimination based on familial status.

    The noise complaint is a separate issue. Regardless of who is living there, they should be respectful of the neighbors. Just be aware that seven people will make a lot of noise, even if they are not having a party. The noise is less of a concern to me than bringing in extra occupants. I would also be concerned about the PM and their role in this. It seems like a conflict of interest when a PM approves their own employee (or friend or family member).

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Deanna McCormick I know perfectly well why I'm on my third property manager, thanks very much. One couldn't get repairs done competently and was terrible at marketing. One communicated poorly and put a felon in my property that we had to struggle four months through the courts to eject. Then I took over managing it for a couple of years and did fine, but now I watn to expand other parts of my business and to do that I just had to delegate it again. That is why I sought a new property manager's support. 

    He came highly recommended. Very knowledgeable. Of course I read his contract carefully. They can write anything they want in the contract but that doesn't mean they'll abide by it. The others didn't either. I've been talking to him every single day through this leasing process. But if I have to be present at the interview and qualify the applicant over his shoulder, and monitor the move-in to see what and who is being brought in, and go read the riot act to the tenant when they mess up, what am I hiring him for? The objective in hiring him was to free up my time for other things.

    I believe you are reading into this question something that isn't there, Deanna. I'm certainly not perfect at everything I'm doing. I will always be learning and improving. But I just don't see the application of your comments to the situation I've outlined and I have to wonder what about this is making you so angry.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 239 posts · 168 votes
    9y

    @Joe Splitrock What a clear and helpful dissection of the issues. Thanks for this thoughtful reply and for taking the time to write it. 

    I wasn't holding their legal status against them, and didn't mean to express an opinion here about current immigration policy. I was just wondering whether their status poses a risk to my investment, especially if they continue to conduct themselves badly.

  • Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Nancy Roth You're paying a PM that didn't do their job and a tenant that wasn't truthful. To top it off they promptly proven they are not going to be good neighbors.

    I say that they need a new place to live and you need a new PM. This is not a good situation.

    Good luck. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.