Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
For those of you who have fully replaced old windows & installed new ones in your personal or rental properties I’m curious what percentage it reduced your utility bills.
I have an apartment unit that has 15 large old windows and has been getting high electric bills (electric furnace and no dishwasher or washer/dryer and temp set at 70) and I’m wondering if it’s worthwhile to replace the old windows. Curious the reduction in people’s bills after full window replacement on their older properties.
Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
7y
@Laura Williams This isn’t a yes or no answer. There are other considerations as well. I replaced 60 windows on a 1940’s Apartment. I wasn’t paying their power bill HOWEVER, the old windows got massive condensation on the inside which rotted out the window sills and walls below the windows - which I do pay for! Also I get better tenants now because the building looks and functions better.
Also I was able to refinance after my remodel (which include other items as well) and took cash out for my next deal.
I also have a duplex with older windows (1970’s). When I did a rent increase that was the #1 response, “Are we getting new windows for the increased rent?” I will eventually replace those just to upgrade the building. Again, better quality, better tenant, better rent.
Who is paying for the hydro, you or tenants. If it is the tenants then pay back is zero.
Generally widow replacement has a long term pay back unless the existing windows are extremely drafty. Your best payback is actually sealing existing windows to prevent drafts rather than replacing. If the existing windows are not excessively drafty upgrading the windows is generally not cost effective in a rental.
Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
7y
@Laura Williams This isn’t a yes or no answer. There are other considerations as well. I replaced 60 windows on a 1940’s Apartment. I wasn’t paying their power bill HOWEVER, the old windows got massive condensation on the inside which rotted out the window sills and walls below the windows - which I do pay for! Also I get better tenants now because the building looks and functions better.
Also I was able to refinance after my remodel (which include other items as well) and took cash out for my next deal.
I also have a duplex with older windows (1970’s). When I did a rent increase that was the #1 response, “Are we getting new windows for the increased rent?” I will eventually replace those just to upgrade the building. Again, better quality, better tenant, better rent.
Rental Property Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2014 · 100 posts · 50 votes
7y
@Laura Williams An electric furnace uses a lot of electricity. Electric resistance hearing is one of the most expensive ways to heat. Replacing your windows will help, but your electricity costs will remain high.
I agree higher rent is the primary pay back on energy efficiency upgrades. unfortunately many landlords do not monopolise on th eupgrade expences. You also benefit from th etax deduction.
I appreciate all of your replies. The problem is that this unit the electric bill was $330 for November ..not event the coldest month with no washer/dryer or dishwasher and I'm worried about it causing tenant turnover or problems with someone paying the rent ..if it's this high in November it might be $500 in January. The area the apartment is in people don't have this kind of money. On the other hand just loosing a tenant every year and doing a turnover would pay for the cost of new windows but I'm just trying to see if that would even help solve the problem before I throw money at it. It does have an electric furnace so that could be why it's so high. Thanks again for all your ideas and if any other suggestions I'm open :)
Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
7y
@Laura Williams insulation is another consideration that can make a big difference. There are often rebates and tax credits to offset your costs from energy company, state and federal sources. Talk to your energy company to start (check their website).
Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2018 · 35 posts · 21 votes
7y
@Laura Williams
As a contractor and flipper Id have to say it really depends on location, heating/air element (electric/gas/radiator) etc. Also is there a bad draft coming in or space drawing warm air out or is this just cosmetic? I feel that replacing windows unless theres a bad draft or crack will not reduce the cost that dramatically. An average vinyl double hung window in Philadelphia costs an Av $136. To remove a window and install this new window costs around $550. Thats includes any new framing, trim work, drywall, paint and caulk. In Philadelphia the summers are 95+ degrees and the winters 30- degrees. An average gas bill is $230 a month to heat a 1200 sq ft house with say 9 windows. Say these windows are bad and need to be replaced. We are looking at $6400 when all is said and done because maybe 1 window was larger then expected. Now the draft is gone, the heat flow is stronger thus lowering the need of the heater running constantly and changing the bill from $285 to $186, saving $99. So now we have 99$ a month savings over a 5 month period. Not taking what you save on running the cold air into consideration you will save $495 over those 5 months and it will take 12 years to make you $6400 back through the savings you are now earning. Obviously you can just add to the rent or understand its an investment but thats the basic math.
Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
7y
Thanks@Anthony Testino Appreciate the example. So it sounds like if the windows are somewhat bad and you replace them it could average around a 25-30% energy savings. Do you think adding drapes or that plastic wrap to the windows would average the same savings in your professional opinion?
Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
7y
On my personal residence in northwestern pa where it’s very cold in the winters I replaced all my windows for the fancy argon double insulated low E vinyl windows . It cost me around 6,000$ . The old windows were really getting dated (1978) and collecting ice on the panes . A cold draft on windy days was felt anywhere near them . After the swap I noticed no energy savings at all sadly .Of coarse they look great and all but if your trying to save money on energy the whole marketing around these is a joke . I did notice a difference when I blew a mountain of cellulose in the attic though and that was like only 250$ to do that . In my experience I’m unimpressed and new fancy Windows would be the last thing I’d do to lower a bill
Contractor · Milltown, NJ · Member since 2016 · 297 posts · 213 votes
7y
Good day @Laura Williams. I would examine a couple of factors before going into full on window replacement. First, are you able to remotely monitor the temperature setting at 70 degrees? Are the tenants responsible, meaning they turn heat on and leave windows shut? Case in point, I keep the temperature in my home at 70 degrees, and it's a split level that was not insulated well during original construction(as I move from project to project within my home I add proper insulation). My average utilities bill is $260/month. Second, what type of exterior is the apartment building, brick, siding, stucco? Do you own the whole building or one unit in the structure? What floor is the problem unit on? And lastly, how far away do you live from the property? Based on your answers to those questions, I can probably figure out a solution that would not require window replacement. Please free to PM me. Best of luck.
Investor · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 219 posts · 104 votes
7y
@Laura Williams
From my experience the price alone can be deceiving.
You need to take into the price of gas and the usage. Your usage could have been the same but the price of the gas could have increased.
Another thing to consider is how frequently the gas company comes and reads the meter. Around the chicagoland area we have Nicor Gas. Often times they come out every other month. The month they do not read the meter they estimate your usage and then reconcile the usage on their next visit.
A final thought is if you have drafty windows you can either use the plastic sheeting or there is a company that I have not used called Indow Window. It is an insert that goes into the window sill. It helps seal the window and also helps with noise reduction. From what I can gather it is pretty pricey. It can cost as much as a cheap builder grade window. However no installation cost. And when you do need it you can just remove it.
Investor · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 219 posts · 104 votes
7y
@Laura Williams
I should have elaborated on the nicor gas estimating your usage. They may have underestimated your usage in the previous month and then have to make up for the shortage in the next month resulting in a larger than anticipated bill.
Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
7y
Thanks @Ravi P. The apartment has it's own electric furnace ...no gas at all except for the water heater in the basement. I just got the new electric bill for December and was $500 and they told me that the apartment averages this & higher in the winter time for past few years. It's only a 2 bedroom apartment. I've not experienced this kinds of cost before for electric even on a huge house. Great idea bout the window insert. I'll look into that
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Laura Williams
Any type of electric heat is expensive. I have friends who live in a 1 bedroom condo built in the 70’s with electric heat, they average $5-600/month over the winter.
I am a contractor, own a split level built in the 50’s. I replaced the windows on my main level this summer. Other than a bit less drafty, we notice no difference in heating costs (oil).
Rental Property Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2014 · 100 posts · 50 votes
7y
I just had a thought. You will get the biggest bang for your buck (in terms of energy savings) by installing a programmable thermostat. No need to heat the place above 50 degrees when nobody is home.
Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
7y
Thanks @Matt M. and @John Pierce This thread has been really helpful. I'm getting the sense from everyone that the problem is more that it's electric heat (instead of gas) more than the drafty windows ...although the windows might not be helping. This has certainly been educational about the difference in an electric furnace verses gas. I will definitely be taking note of electric furnaces in the future ..I never realized such a difference such a difference in monthly cost.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@John Pierce
I disagree. I’ve struggled with the “savings” for years. If you keep heat at 70, and say drop it to 62 when you leave or go to bed, and it’s 20 outside, the inside temp will drop quickly and then heat just maintains at 62, same as it would at 70. And then works hard to bring temp back up to 70.
I’m not a firm believer that dropping temps when you leave or go to sleep save all that much $
Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 6 votes
7y
@Laura Williams
Another thing you can try is getting a cheap thermal camera that attaches to an iPhone. (Seek thermal)
You can see where all the cold spots are and see if the windows are the main culprit or if there is no insulation on minimal insulation in certain spots.
I have used this camera before when our drywall guys have covered over a register for a room. We found the hot spot so we didn’t have to put holes all over the wall.
Rental Property Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2014 · 100 posts · 50 votes
7y
@Matt Michaelson I would agree with you if we were talking about a heat pump, but electric furnaces and gas furnaces are pretty efficient at bringing an apartment up to temperature.
Investor · Trafalgar, IN · Member since 2016 · 95 posts · 58 votes
7y
@Laura Williams if there is gas to the unit, your best bet is a gas furnace in all units billed to the tenant. Electric is the absolute worst. Good luck.
Rental Property Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 339 votes
7y
If you buy plastic to cover the windows to stop drafts, you'll get an idea on what kind of savings you'll get from new windows. I like the idea of the thermal camera, but get an energy audit from a conservation professional. We got them on all our rentals, and the one on our primary residence was free. They will tell you how much energy is lost by drafts and how insulation might help, as well as other recommendations. They also will tell you what kind of rebates might be available.
We provide window plastic to our tenants, and have replaced a couple of the worst rotted windows. We have been doing 4 at a time per unit. No need to do them all at once.
Specialist · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 891 votes
7y
In Ontario Canada you get government grants for changing windows. I think it’s like $500 a window you can get a rebate for so you end up paying like half.
You all thinking $1000 a window is ridiculous. I am with you. Ontario is stupid and add 13% tax on top.
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y
The DIY landlording experience is a bit different. I usually replace old windows with new vinyl ones from Home Depot. They cost about $160-$190 each, depending on size. I handle removing the old window and installing the new one. I could train a basic handyman to do about six to eight windows per 8-hour day at $30/hour. It's not at all difficult from a technical point of view, nothing that can't be learned well enough by practically anyone by watching a few YouTube videos.
Additional materials costs are maybe $10 for the rockwool insulation to insulate old window weight pockets, a can of Great Stuff Window and Door foam ($6), and a 10 oz. tube of silicone caulk ($6).
This is pretty much what the window replacement companies will charge you $550 and up for, with the addition of what's called window wrapping from the exterior, leaving the exterior trim of your window with vinyl covered aluminum trim coil pieces that they tell you will make your windows "maintenance free." This is a gimmick. While the wrapping will work to protect the exterior wood trim to some extent, it will also hide any ongoing damage until it gets really, really expensive to fix. Since most double-hung windows now have removable sashes, getting at the exterior trim of a window to do maintenance on it is easier than it has ever been.
In my experience, a replaced vinyl window with the weight pockets filled with rockwool and argon-filled e-glass will stop drafts dead and indeed save you significant money in heating and cooling costs over older single-paned wood windows. But in older residential buildings, the exterior walls are not insulated, and so mileage will vary a great deal on how much energy is saved by the windows -- if the walls are insulated you'll save more, if they aren't, you'll save a lot less. The best thing you can do with a really old place, and what you should do before you think about changing out the windows, is to get up into the attic and just go crazy on insulating that. @Dennis M. above used cellulose foam, which works great and is purpose-made for that application. We tend to go overboard on R-30 rolls of unfaced fiberglass insulation because it's incredibly cheap for the savings it offers.
Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
7y
@Jim K. great info in your post. This building is 3 stories high and its only the bottom floor unit that’s getting hit with the high electric heating bills. The tenants on the second floor tell me they hardly need to turn on their heaters. First floor apartment the electric bill is $500 this month and 2nd floor apartment (smaller) it was $38...probably cause they getting heat from the first floor Would the attic insulation make a difference in your opinion on this situation?