Do you buy small MF (2-4 units) for cash flow or appreciation?
Rental Property Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2019 · 160 posts · 34 votes
Do you buy small MF (2-4 units) for cash flow or appreciation?
Most Popular Reply
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
7yI would not buy for appreciation because one change in the market can wipe out all that appreciation in a year or less. The crash of 2008 is a perfect example but there are smaller versions of that happening all the time. Cash flow is less volatile and more stable. If you hold on to the property long enough, you'll get both.
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160 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · AZ · Member since 2019 · 46 posts · 25 votes7y
I agree with everyone else. Appreciation is nice, if only it were guaranteed. Yesterday I backed out of a deal where I could receive a 10% ROI on a multifamily property. I suspected it would be a great long term investment once I factored in expected appreciation in the area. However, the fact that appreciation is not guaranteed made me uneasy. I want 15-20% ROI on my first few MF deals as my primary goal is replacing as much income as possible as I will be losing a fair amount after selling a business. Once I have accumulated a few deals at 15-20%, then I won't have any problem taking a 10% ROI + expected appreciation.
- Real Estate Agent · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 261 posts · 253 votes7y
I know here in Memphis, there's just about no appreciation. You can buy for cashflow and if some outside forces push appreciation, great! If you buy small MF in most areas of Memphis for appreciation, you're a madman.
- Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 893 votes7y
@Thuy Pham-Satrappe it doesn't happen a whole lot at the peak of a market lol. I would choose the cash flow side of the spectrum. When markets are very low I would choose the appreciation side.
Even at the bottom of the market, if you choose a property that is in a high appreciation market, it will cash flow less than properties in other "high yield markets"... but your ROI in the upcoming years will be higher going the appreciation route if you choose the right market.
- Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 893 votes7y
@Syed H. on duplexes renting for $1600 we would frequently see owner paid sewer/water/garbage bills of $300 a month. In other midwest markets I'm paying 50-80$ a month for a duplex with the same sqft, market value, and gross rents. Water bills coupled with property taxes and sale triggering reassessment pushed me out of Cleveland (and Milwaukee as well).
- Rental Property Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2019 · 160 posts · 34 votes7y
@Paolo Agostinelli great point!
- Flipper/Rehabber · Saint Joseph, MI · Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes7y
@Erin M. If you’re looking at MF (over 5 units) you look for a property in that area that needs work to force appreciation
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:
@Dan H. a lot of info but its all incorrect , higher cash flow yes but not % then Cleveland . Would you rather pay about 700k in San Fran ( this is what my clients from the Bay area tell me it cost ) , and receive the numbers you mentioned? Or pay about 80 90k ( In today's market vs 3- 4 5 years ago 35k - 45k ) and receive about 1500 per month about 12k net ? Much higher % then San Fran So not only are you getting double digit net caps , also about a double .
Good luck
Bob your dating yourself.. average sales price NOT including condo's is well over 1mil.. No one buys SFRs for rentals or very few do in those areas.. off shore money will they will pay cash and not even rent them.. its about gold standard.. IE top notch quality assets that are not going to get destroyed by tenants.. or the neighborhood goes to pot and your asset falls in value.
CA investors for cash flow buy MF or other assets like MHP storage.. shopping industrial commercial office that sort of thing.. SFR is only bought for rentals generally in the mid west rust belt deep south.. reason is they don't pencil in high priced areas..
so its not really any kind of comparison at least as it relates to SFR's
this reminds me of when I started in real estate in the mid 70s My add in the SF chronicle was 1k down get your self started in real estate
and through the mid 80s when I sold ranch land.. its was all owner finance and many bought their first properties that way since they could not afford a home or down payment in the bay area.. we sold thousands upon thousands of lots and small acreages in N. CA over a 25 year run.. my dad started mid 60s...
now get your self started in real estate has morphed into buying rental houses in inexpensive markets IE any fixed asset under basically 100 to 120k in cheap real estate to a west or high priced market person.. so you have all these first time buyers.. that's the get yourself started in real estate.. Land in CA.. went up over the years. Lots I sold for 2500.00 total in the late 70s now sell for 50k.. of course they never cash flowed.. :)
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes7y
@Jay Hinrichs well one of my clients sold a duplex in San Jose for 750, in a day, WOW, could not believe it , . Well more to my point, why ( and not everyone can afford a mill ) buy for 1 mill with about 50k gross income. UNLESS everyone has a crystal ball ( you have been lucky enough to have LOL ) and pricing is still rising . % wise I will take 60- 80K all in with 18k gross net about 12, all day, vs 1 mill with 50k grossish
All the best Jay, :)
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:
@Jay Hinrichs well one of my clients sold a duplex in San Jose for 750, in a day, WOW, could not believe it , . Well more to my point, why ( and not everyone can afford a mill ) buy for 1 mill with about 50k gross income. UNLESS everyone has a crystal ball ( you have been lucky enough to have LOL ) and pricing is still rising . % wise I will take 60- 80K all in with 18k gross net about 12, all day, vs 1 mill with 50k grossish
All the best Jay, :)
no arguing the math.. I was just pointing out that most CA ( bay area specific and more specific any where but Richmond Oakland Vallejo) they simply don't buy sfr's for rentals.. I mean were I lived in Palo Alto scrapers are 2 to 3 mil..
- Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes7y
I've been saying this for years. the return on a 15 year 25% down note is about 9.7% even on zero cashflow & appreciation.
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:
@Dan H. a lot of info but its all incorrect , higher cash flow yes but not % then Cleveland . Would you rather pay about 700k in San Fran ( this is what my clients from the Bay area tell me it cost ) , and receive the numbers you mentioned? Or pay about 80 90k ( In today's market vs 3- 4 5 years ago 35k - 45k ) and receive about 1500 per month about 12k net ? Much higher % then San Fran So not only are you getting double digit net caps , also about a double .
Good luck
The 50% rule tells me that a Cleveland property that cash flowed $1500/month would have rents that approached San Francisco level rent so your scenario is not accurate but mine is accurate.
Show me the proforma that shows a single unit cash flowing $1500/month in Cleveland and I bet the performa does not reflect the 50% rule and in less than a couple minutes I could demonstrate why the $1500 is grossly optimistic. With realistic cost estimates (including realistic maintenance/cap ex estimates) the average Cleveland unit may have cash flow of a couple/few hundred dollars and that is probably being optimistic.
Never the less, I admit that in percentage terms (versus using dollars) Cleveland may have better cash flow over the last 10 year holding period, but the higher appreciation market, by the fact that it is a high appreciation market, will catch the lower appreciation market given enough time even in percentage terms. It is math.
Add in the appreciation over the 10 years when applied with leverage and you get insane return on San Francisco RE (or San Diego, LA, OC RE).
Cash flow is one component of the overall return. An RE should be judged based on overall return on investment. The appreciating buy n hold RE market has historically out performed the non-appreciation markets on total return on investment especially if financed. I have no reason to believe that will change so therefore to the OP's original question, if the goal is to optimize the return on investment then history shows that the appreciation market is likely to out perform the cash flow market that has virtual zero appreciation (historically appreciates at or below the rate of inflation).
We all have a goal of getting more money in our pockets, right? This website is called bigger POCKETS for a reason.
So how do we best accomplish that goal? I have some off-the-wall thoughts to share.
I like the way cash flow puts money in my pocket today. I can use it to enjoy, give to charity, drink a beer, travel somewhere fun, etc.
Can a property appreciate and put EVEN MORE cash in my pocket in the future? No doubt...it can. It might. It could. But there is no guarantee.
Imagine an investor who has a goal to become wealthy and focuses all his efforts on maximizing appreciation and equity. He buys $10 M on loans and feeds those for 15 years. Sells, cashes out and has a huge check to deposit into his bank account.... He is now wealthy.
Then dies on the way home from closing. Did he achieve his goal?
Now I know what folks will says, "That's rare." Agreed, but "rare" is not a risk management strategy. Most houses don't burn down or get blown away by tornado either, but how many people go without any insurance on their primary residence?
So what's my point? You need insurance of an odd kind, to whit: cash flow. Because that helps you enjoy some of the fruits of your labor today, now, while you are young, healthy, vibrant, and full of life. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow, and appreciation is always about tomorrow....usually many years in terms of real estate.
Financial guru Dave Ramsey is best known for his "no debt" stance, but he has a teaching that applies to this concept as well. We have three things we do with money: spend, save, and give. I have taken that concept and applied it to REI.
I want at least 20% of our total ROI to come in monthly as positive cash flow at present. Gradually, that will percentage will decrease as our loan balances are paid off faster because the amortization of our loans will shift almost entirely to principle and only a minor amount of interest. We'll still be taking the same number of $$$ home to spend and give, but the ROI will mostly shift to equity at that point (save).
Once the debt is 100% paid off, our monthly percentage from cash flow will skyrocket and our equity return will be very low by comparison. That's still a few years off, but if I die tomorrow I have already enjoyed many fruits of my labors. Cash flow has "insured" that I get to participate in some of my ROI today while continuing to grow wealth for the future.
My 2 cent plus $4.98 will buy you one micro-brewed beer at my favorite local watering hole. If you've got enough cash flow to come along, you're welcome to hear some more off-the-wall thoughts.
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes7y
@Dan H. ALL my Pro formas include, ALL, this is not my 1st BBQ :) TAXES, INS, PM 10% V/M.. if MF water, and bigger MF gas as well, Dan I am not here to debate you on what I am 100% certain of having done about 500 . It seems you do not have any experience in the Cleveland markets, as I have none in San Fran. When I grow up I want to be like @JAY HINDRICKS LOL,
THIS is the typical deal, SF, PP 60KISH,, RENT 12K, TAXES 2K, PM 1K, 10% V.M 1K, INS 800, NET about 12% ,
Now what if you were one of the lucky ones that paid only 35, 40 45k, same rent same expenses, now you are 17% net +++ with values about 60k, Nobody is getting rich, but hey , not so bad :)
How about 21 units with 138k gross NET 85k, all in 400k 20% plus
81 units about 550k gross about 290kish net, all in 750k yes real :)
Or duplex 18k gross net about 11k, ALL IN 40k, 25% +++
OR a SF, RENT 14k year, ALL IN 45k, taxes 1500, ABOUT 20% NET
Again I would not touch a 1 mill, with about 50k income,
I can go on and on. I am not hear to sell you on Cleveland , just responding to your post with facts,
All the best to you and continued success
- Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes7y
Maybe it's me, but I don't see many postings that specifically state that you can make money just on Mortgage Balance Reduction. I see at least 70% to 80% of the articles posting that generally has a calculation that deals with ONE and ONLY One time frame, which is the initial purchase, and if the calculation for that specific initial time worked, hey... then it's a good deal.
So, the 1% rule, a Calculation of Cash on Cash Return, a single calculation on Cap Rate, etc.... these are all calculations based on one initial time frame.
BTW... these calculations are MISLEADING at best.
Take for instance, you buy a property that meets 10% CoCR. Example, you pay $10,000 out of your pocket for a $100,000 property that then generates $10k in Cash Flow per year.
That sound GREAT for most people as a CALCULATION. BUT.... let's say the 2nd Year of your Buy and Hold investment, you had to sell for whatever reason.
HOWEVER, there will be associated Selling Expenses like Commission.
Let's say the selling Expenses is $10k. So if you buy and made $10k in Cash Flow for the first year and you sold in the 2nd year but paid $10k in closing costs, you effectively made ZERO..... a BAD DEAL.
Your Cash on Cash Return calculation does not take that into account.
If Investors on this forum don't take into account ALL the future Cash Flows of a targeted holding period..... they are not doing a full and comprehensive analysis. I personally don't know WHAT they are doing other than getting some calculation for an initial time frame which is at best misleading.
To really make the point between Cash Flow and Appreciation, I really recommend several podcasts here in BiggerPockets, there are PLENTY including:
1) Cash Flow VS Appreciation | Real Estate Investing Basics
2) Many others but I would like to mention @Russell Brazil and @Jay Hinrichs Podcasts as well.
NOTE: Cash Flow VS Appreciation is a "REAL ESTATE INVESTING BASICs". Watch the first podcast and I am sure those who are "Cash Flow" is everything and "Appreciation" is gambling, I'm hoping you will start to understand that Cash Flow is just a very minor part of the Real Estate wealth generator.
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:
@Dan H. ALL my Pro formas include, ALL, this is not my 1st BBQ :) TAXES, INS, PM 10% V/M.. if MF water, and bigger MF gas as well, Dan I am not here to debate you on what I am 100% certain of having done about 500 . It seems you do not have any experience in the Cleveland markets, as I have none in San Fran.
THIS is the typical deal, SF, PP 60KISH,, RENT 12K, TAXES 2K, PM 1K, 10% V.M 1K, INS 800, NET about 12% ,
Now what if you were one of the lucky ones that paid only 35, 40 45k, same rent same expenses, now you are 17% net +++ with values about 60k, Nobody is getting rich, but hey , not so bad :)
How about 21 units with 138k gross NET 85k, all in 400k 20% plus
81 units about 550k gross about 290kish net, all in 750k yes real :)
Or duplex 18k gross net about 11k, ALL IN 40k, 25% +++
OR a SF, RENT 14k year, ALL IN 45k, taxes 1500, ABOUT 20% NET
Again I would not touch a 1 mill, with about 50k income,
I can go on and on. I am not hear to sell you on Cleveland , just responding to your post with facts,
All the best to you and continued success
My assumption on the $1500/month was that you were referring to a single unit as that is what you were comparing to (i.e. my example was the average single 2 BR unit). The $2K/month cash flow was the average single 2BR unit that typically is not in the price range that you refer to because they are largely apartments (I.e. they are less than $1M/unit). Because my cash flow was per unit, I thought you were implying a $1500/month cash flow for a single unit which, as someone with experience, you know what sort of rent that would require to achieve. Of course, with enough units you can achieve any cash flow so I am confused at the $1500/month cash flow reference without indicating the unit count. I and also confused that you indicated the $1500/month cash flow was on a purchase that a few years ago was in the ~$35K range. I suspect you went back to single unit cost on the cost to purchase but used a cash flow from a multi unit.
Confusing.
I also concede on the large unit counts you could do better than the 50% rule in Cleveland (but not the typically small unit count investor that is just starting out). So maybe you can achieve $11k net on $18K rent (quite a bit better than the 50% rule), but the typical investor in that market cannot. It looks like the best cash flow I see up there is ~$500 unit/month (the duplex). I stay with my statement that the average cash flow per unit (remember you have high unit counts and quite a bit of experience and I suspect do better than average) is lucky to be as high as $300/month.
I also think we are getting off track by concentrating on cash flow. I think what defines a good purchase is the overall return. Cash flow is a single component of the overall return. The overall best return has historically been achieve in the high appreciation markets largely due to the market/rent appreciation.
Good luck
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Erik W.:
We all have a goal of getting more money in our pockets, right? This website is called bigger POCKETS for a reason.
So how do we best accomplish that goal? I have some off-the-wall thoughts to share.
I like the way cash flow puts money in my pocket today. I can use it to enjoy, give to charity, drink a beer, travel somewhere fun, etc.
Can a property appreciate and put EVEN MORE cash in my pocket in the future? No doubt...it can. It might. It could. But there is no guarantee.
Imagine an investor who has a goal to become wealthy and focuses all his efforts on maximizing appreciation and equity. He buys $10 M on loans and feeds those for 15 years. Sells, cashes out and has a huge check to deposit into his bank account.... He is now wealthy.
Then dies on the way home from closing. Did he achieve his goal?
Now I know what folks will says, "That's rare." Agreed, but "rare" is not a risk management strategy. Most houses don't burn down or get blown away by tornado either, but how many people go without any insurance on their primary residence?
So what's my point? You need insurance of an odd kind, to whit: cash flow. Because that helps you enjoy some of the fruits of your labor today, now, while you are young, healthy, vibrant, and full of life. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow, and appreciation is always about tomorrow....usually many years in terms of real estate.
Financial guru Dave Ramsey is best known for his "no debt" stance, but he has a teaching that applies to this concept as well. We have three things we do with money: spend, save, and give. I have taken that concept and applied it to REI.
I want at least 20% of our total ROI to come in monthly as positive cash flow at present. Gradually, that will percentage will decrease as our loan balances are paid off faster because the amortization of our loans will shift almost entirely to principle and only a minor amount of interest. We'll still be taking the same number of $$$ home to spend and give, but the ROI will mostly shift to equity at that point (save).
Once the debt is 100% paid off, our monthly percentage from cash flow will skyrocket and our equity return will be very low by comparison. That's still a few years off, but if I die tomorrow I have already enjoyed many fruits of my labors. Cash flow has "insured" that I get to participate in some of my ROI today while continuing to grow wealth for the future.
My 2 cent plus $4.98 will buy you one micro-brewed beer at my favorite local watering hole. If you've got enough cash flow to come along, you're welcome to hear some more off-the-wall thoughts.
you have two different things going on. you have investors who are trying to live on rental income as quickly as possible because they hate their job their life whatever.. and then you have investors who simply invest in real estate and don't need income to support their lifestyles.. they make plenty of money in their jobs or business..
and its about generational wealth as much as anything.. IE setting up grand kids so they are not saddled with student debt letting kids inherit etc..
so for those that are trying their hardest to live on cash flow because they believe they would like to trade their current job for a new job.. IE being a full time landlord.. that works fine I get it.. all your doing is investing in a widget that is going to throw off cash flow.. you can buy a sub way sandwich store run those and do better than rentals in most instance on COC returns.. or any other number of small business's given the amount of debt you take on to create the cash flow.
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes7y
@Dan H. I typically get 850ish on my 2 brs ( We go 90% govt tenants ) heck we got 823 for a 2 br in EAST CLEVELAND, I could not believe it. They only gave us 725 for a 4 BR in CH, . They have made it very clear, they do not want ( any longer ) sec 8 tenants in the " nicer " areas, thus paying much more in the other areas. $1200 for a 4 br in S Collinwood, they made their point LOL
AGAIN ALL THE BEST TO YOU
The most passive income in REI is appreciation. Hopefully you can get some or essentially you bought a job or someone else a job to keep the cash flow rolling and you will be taking a pay cut every year if rents and values do not keep up with inflation. I have seen many homes worth same in the 80s & 90s than they are today. So if you owned that you would have lost 50% of your investment value just to inflation alone. Volume is the answer but still your paper capital could go south owning 100 homes that lose value to the dollar YOY.
- Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
Wow- remember all the speculators with their negative cash flows in the aughts, just waiting for that guaranteed payday!
When I was a cook I remember listening to some middle age waitress telling me about each new beanie baby she purchased and how much it would be worth someday. Fast forward 20+ years and my little one is trying to convince me that a Pokémon is going to be worth millions.
What do I know- maybe that woman is sitting on a yacht right now. I’ll take my cash flow and forced appreciation any day... yes, I will have my cake and eat it to.
I am not looking to replace my W2, but if I am going to manage a 4 family, then I am going to get paid... a lot... every month. And if I run my business as I have, then another investor will come along... and he will realize that even with my insane profit margin on resale, he too will turn a profit on purchase.
- Developer · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Thuy Pham-Satrappe:
I know the unicorn property offers both great cash flow as well as future appreciation, but how often does that actually happen? Other ideals would be low crime rate area as well
Looking at small multi family properties (2-4 units).
I buy multi family apartment buildings with the intent of getting FORCED APPRECIATION to get cashflow up and make me sell the building for a good profit a few years down the road.
Just like this property - which I sold and made over $1 MILLION profit on. I shared it here on BP:
- Rental Property Investor · Batavia, IL · Member since 2019 · 35 posts · 15 votes7y
One of the first 3 rules of real estate investing is always buy for cash flow never for natural appreciation. Good luck.
- Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Bill Goodland:
@Llewelyn A. I agree that mortgage balance reduction is a big benefit of REI that people often forget. Congrats on being blessed by the appreciation gods, and while I know it takes some skill along with luck to be in your position, I think it's harder to replicate than building strong cash flow. And while you can now say that you have a duplex that cash flows 3k a month, what do you say to those that may argue that the return on your equity on a 2 million dollar place is pretty low and would be better off elsewhere with a higher return?
I see this question quite a lot, "what do you say to those that may argue that the return on your equity on a 2 million dollar place is pretty low and would be better off elsewhere with a higher return?"
Let's talk about the property that I bought for $140k that cash flowed ZERO in the year 2000.
I bought that $140k property with a down payment and closing cost of $28k.
I did some renovations for around $40k. Total is $68k out of pocket.
If I only used the original year for the Cash on Cash, it would be ZERO.
HOWEVER, if I use the current cash flow of $3k per month or $36k per year but with the ORIGINAL Investment of $68k, then the CoCR in the year 2019 will be $36k / $68k = 53%.
Do you know any investment where you will be making a 58% CoCR?!
I DO.... most of my Investments already do that if not much better than that.
Makes sense?
Now to address your question on ROE of 3%.
Does it really matter if the ROE is 3% versus a CoCR of 58%?
Well, MAYBE. What really matters is the full comprehensive analysis which includes the initial Investment ($68k in this case), all the cash flows in the holding period, plus the cost to sell the property at the end of the holding period.
Those of us who do the calculation will use the Internal Rate of Return (IRR) or some derivative of that calculation.
ROE does not take into account the Expense of the Sale nor the purchase price of the new replacement investment on the switch. If you factor those in, then your IRR may actually diminish which will tell you it's not the best decision to make.
There are other factors to consider as well, such as Market Timing.
If you have bought the way that I have bought, the Price of your Investment will look like this over time line chart:
Notice that this is not a standard horizontal line. It's an INCLINED line and that even if you bought at the peak of one Price/year cycle, because the Line is INCLINED, it will just be a matter of time when the next cycle bring it WAY past the current peak.
NYC and many big Metros are like this. This is why TIMING the Market can be MUCH better in these bigger Metros.
In other words, it's just a matter of time for the market to adjust to a higher price if I'm incorrect on my market timing.
Most other markets are not like this and are very unforgiving. If your timing happens to be bad, you are dead for decades.
NOT NYC or other major metros.
It's VERY hard to buy at the wrong time in this kind of Inclined Market Price Chart.
So... if those that are thinking NYC is a straight horizontal line AND that prices are way too expensive.... they will NEVER buy. Over my 21 years of buying in Brooklyn, NYC.... every single year I have been ADVISED that the market has peaked or that it's way too expensive.
So what?! It's just a matter of waiting for the next cycle because of the inclined chart.
Makes sense?
- Real Estate Broker · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2018 · 196 posts · 191 votes7y
@Thuy Pham-Satrappe
I say you buy it for the cash flow, because that’s what you can do research on and get good solid evidence to calculate it and be pretty close to accurate, thus helping determine what you should offer.
Appreciation honestly can’t be predicted much, I look at it as an added benefit.
As you reassess market rents every year you renew, you would have a pretty good idea of what the markets doing. You will notice rents get higher/lower. Prices tend to do the same.
You know the funny thing is, ive heard the same thing. I had a client who owns a few buildings in manhattan. He told me an interesting story about when he bought his company's HQ. Everyone called him insane for buying it back in the 80s. They told him it was way too expensive, he would go bankrupt, blah blah blah. He's been buying for the past 40 years & now is worth 100s of millions.
The truth is the big markets were always relatively expensive. Manhattan was never cheap. The only thing you can bet on, is that in the long term, big market RE will be more expensive.
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