Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Adiel GorelPro Member
Real Estate Broker · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 30 votes

As we all observe and fear the Coronavirus, we see many cities under “shelter-at-home” restrictions, and many “non-essential” businesses closing. Then on the other hand, the Fed lowered rates almost to zero, and mortgage rates, after a short spike, are starting to settle down near the lowest point ever. Some people fear a recession is likely to follow, and if we remember the recession of 2008, I think it’s quite possible. That depends, of course, on the length of the lock-down.

If a recession does occur, let’s point out some of the differences between the recession of 2008 and the next recession, if it hits.

Before the 2008 recession happened, there was a major boom in many states. Home prices in states like Arizona, Nevada and Florida went through the roof. The media was shouting “It’s a bubble! It has to burst!” Prices of homes in Phoenix, for example, nearly doubled from the beginning of 2004 till the middle of 2006. Not all states participated in the party, for example, Texas and Oklahoma have not gone up very much during that time.

When the 2008 recession hit, the markets that went down precipitously were, of course, the exact markets that had participated in the 2004-2006 boom. Places in Arizona, Nevada, Florida, and other states. Prices tanked and crashed quite a bit. However not across the board, states like Texas and Oklahoma did not go down very much during the recession of 2008.

By contrast, at the present time, especially in affordable markets like Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Baton Rouge, Central Florida, parts of Atlanta, Raleigh and others, there are currently no price bubbles. No major boom has happened, Thus the likelihood of a major price crash in such markets is much slimmer than the markets which crashed in the 2008 recession. There are very high priced markets now, the expensive markets in San Francisco, for example (which has already started going down in price last year). In such markets, there may be a stronger effect on prices. Also, when you invest in a brand new home in a good area in Oklahoma and pay $170,000. You are buying the home not much over the basic construction and land cost. Again, the probability of an “intrinsic value” home like this going down much is small. By contrast, a $2M home in San Francisco, which cost $900K to build, has a lot of “air” in the price, with a higher likelihood of prices going down in San Francisco.

The recession of 2008 was created by housing. Lenders released all limits, and loans were made to virtually anyone that was human, almost regardless of credit or ability to pay. Some loans were up to 125% of the value of the house. This bad debt, called “sub-prime”, was then packaged among other debt, and amazingly, the credit agency gave these packages high ratings, as if it was a quality debt product. Then these faulty packages sold on Wall Street, and financial wizards found way to leverage them enormously. Once defaults on the bad loans started to hit, the entire structure unraveled.

By contrast, at the present we are still under the Dodd-Frank Act, which was drafted after the 2008 recession. Borrowing is now much harder and lengthier than it was before the 2008 recession. Even borrowers with great credit are finding the current loan processes frustrating. The amount of sub-prime loans is minuscule relative the period preceding the 2008 recession, and steps were taken to make the abuses with rating agencies be much harder to repeat. Thus the next recession is likely not to be caused by bad loans. It is clear that if another recession comes, its effects on rental home investing will be quite different than the recession of 2008.

I believe that the best way to invest in real estate is to buy brand new homes, in affordable large metropolitan areas, where the rent numbers match well with prices. Then finance the homes with a fixed-rate loan. To the best of my knowledge long term fixed rate loans like we get here in the US don’t exist elsewhere. The monthly payment and the mortgage balance never change with the cost of living, while everything else does. That means inflation constantly erodes the true buying buyer of your debt, making your debt ever smaller in real dollars.

For these kinds of homes, purchased anywhere from $150K to $250K, I believe the effects of the next recession will be minimal. Rates are very low, however, so fixed rate loans will retain these great rates forever.

The act of buying good rental homes in large metro areas and holding them as rental for the long term, where the loan erodes, is a future-changer. It does not change your future instantly or even within a short time, but over the long term, this strategy is a powerful future changer. I have seen people retire well, send kids to college, and look much stronger financially thanks to these simple yet powerful investments.

Since these investments show their power over the long term, and since the interest rates are so favorable now, and since a possible impending recession is unlikely to have effects on prices like the 2008 recession, I believe this would be a good time to invest.

As an extra “bonus”, the virus fear creates more flexibility with sellers, including builders, and the ability to negotiate better prices.

I would be happy to discuss it with anyone who may wish to inquire further.

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Columbia, MD · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 169 votes
6y

We have strong economy ??? Really ? Do we? 10 days after the shut down of the country most Americans did NOT have the money to pay their rent on April 1st .... just freaking 10 days !!! They did not last one month !! San Antonio, food bank, feeds 120k people a week, millions on unemployment, in a few weeks you will hear about families with crazy hospital bills to pay ($20K-30K each) plus some will have funerals to pay for ( 5-10k) and that's while many were without any income coming in. Commercial real-estate owners about to lose their pants during corona epidemic, all those with over leveraged investments and kings of BRRRR will feel the sh** hitting the fan in like 3,2,1.....while rent goes un paid. This was not strong economy to begin with! Homes, cars and student loans leveraged to the brim while most pay the minimum is not a sign of strong economy.This was crap economy on borrowed time and borrowed cheap money. Sorry y'all

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  • Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 41 votes
    6y

    @Nick Gann I agree, I'm waiting to see what real estate does so that I can finally become a REI. I was going to start a new construction 4-plex this month but with the coronavirus stuff going on I stopped that. So now here I wait, trying to figure out like the rest of us what is going to happen. Until that I can only call it how I see it, and the short term doesn't look good. I'm bullish on long term tho, maybe ~1 year from now we will be in a better position.

  • Deano VulcanoPro Member
    Investor · Fort Mill, SC · Member since 2013 · 129 posts · 70 votes
    6y

    Samuel Pentowski Well said! Everyone should read his post (4 posts back), that`s what we`re dealing with here, stick your head in the sand if you choose or start making preparations to survive and then thrive.

  • Member since 2020 · 26 posts · 43 votes
    6y

    @Nick Gann @Samuel Pentowski If there is one thing I've learned is that, during crises, the media/government are quick to make up phrases to describe things that aren't really there.

    Whether it's "weapons of mass destruction" or "flatten the curve" or "v-shaped recovery", usually, when it's all said and done, none of the seemingly expert phrases ever really depict an accurate portrayal of what's happening or will happen.

    @Deano Vulcano I agree with you, the problem is we're playing the game of markets, and markets, some more than others, seem to obsess over what's happening at face value, rather than seeing through the fog. The economic implications of all of this will be FAR more devastating than the actual virus, but to the market's and those who fail to do proper research, it's all about body count at this point.

  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    6y

    Yes. The question is how long will the recession last, and what economic drivers will take the biggest hit.

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y

    @John Underwood

    Totally disagree. We have a strong economy driven by debt, low interest driven and money printed by our current administration to maintain a bullish economy; all this was prior to Coronavirus.

  • Real Estate Broker · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2014 · 64 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    I like the way Ray Dalio interprets the economic impacts of the coronavirus. He believes we will see the economy act like it did the the 1929-1932. During that time period we saw a 10% drop in the economy and double digit unemployment. In 1933 the government did the same thing that it's doing now: printed money, created similar economic programs, and interest rates dropped to zero. It was a slow recovery and it took a long time for the stock market to recover and exceed its previous highs. 

    I am not an economic expert and I think it's too early to say to what extent real estate will be affect by the coronavirus. However, I think Ray Dalio's comparison brings up some good points that should be researched further. 

    My tenants all paid rent for April and the management company that I use only saw a 6% increase in delinquency from March to April. They expect delinquency to rise in May. I haven't seen prices for multifamily property in my market adjust yet. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 19 votes
    6y

    100 percent we’re going into a recession . Worse than 08. Unemployment is at insane numbers. Many small businesses will not be opening. Back up, which means a lot of people look for a new job. Big banks just raised loan requirements to 20% down and 700 credit score minimum. Going to be a lot of foreclosures coming . Save up .

    @Adiel Gorel

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott S.:

    Yes, 100%.  

    I see Chase just announced customers applying for a new mortgage will need a credit score of at least 700, and will be required to make a down payment equal to 20% of the home’s value.  Everyone is tightening lending standards across the board.  RE prices will certainly drop.

    CEO, Jamie Dimon has released his annual letter to shareholders.  Good read about what is to come.

    "...but at a minimum, we assume that it will include a bad recession combined with some kind of financial stress similar to the global financial crisis of 2008. Our bank cannot be immune to the effects of this kind of stress."

    https://reports.jpmorganchase.com/investor-relations/2019/ar-ceo-letters.htm  

     Looks like an opportunity to sell with owner financing as less people will be able to qualify for a mortgage. Also the rental market should stay strong if people can't go to a bank and get a mortgage as easy.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Miguel Castro:

    @John Underwood

    Totally disagree. We have a strong economy driven by debt, low interest driven and money printed by our current administration to maintain a bullish economy; all this was prior to Coronavirus.

    I'm OK if we do have a short recession. I bought almost all my houses with cash. I'd love to have an opportunity to buy some houses on the cheap. I have been buying stock cheap compared to their 52 week highs. Its good to have cash to deploy when opportinities present themselves.

  • Investor · Andover, MA · Member since 2015 · 269 posts · 67 votes
    6y

    Simple and short answer: YES long answer: follow jobs / unemployment numbers and that will tell us more about it... 

  • Member since 2020 · 26 posts · 43 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed What are your thoughts on cryptocurrencies? 

  • Member since 2020 · 1 post · 5 votes
    6y

    Yes, I think the economy will go into a recession.  A few reasons why:

    1.  We had the longest bull market basically on record leading up to this.  Many people were calling for a recession within the next 12-18 months anyway; this just accelerated that.

    2.  Regardless of what happens, there is going to be a significant part of the populace that will continue to be scared of COVID probably until a vaccine comes out, and realistically that's at least a year away, if not more.  Fear = uncertainty = tightening wallets = bad for economy.  Unless all of sudden this thing just dies off and new cases go down to zero, we're going to be dealing with this.  I am 36 and I have friends my age (educated, high earning people) with no kids and no elder parents around who haven't left their houses in 5 weeks, despite the fact that they're like .01% chance of dying from this thing.  I can't imagine they're the only one's like this.

    3.  Whenever recessions happen businesses use it as a way to trim the fat and get more efficient and I imagine that will happen this time around also.  I'm in Orlando. Disney just furloughed 80% of their workforce, same with Universal.  Many people are saying that about 30-50% of that furloughed workforce will not get their job back.  Ever. 

    Right now nobody gives a **** about deficits but at some point they will and the government won't have the political capital to do anything to soften the blow and the economy will contract.  I would be very surprised if it doesn't.

    Then again, what do I know?

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    The definition of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth. Won’t know until the next quarter finishes, that could be a while.

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @John Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Miguel Castro:

    @John Underwood

    Totally disagree. We have a strong economy driven by debt, low interest driven and money printed by our current administration to maintain a bullish economy; all this was prior to Coronavirus.

    I'm OK if we do have a short recession. I bought almost all my houses with cash. I'd love to have an opportunity to buy some houses on the cheap. I have been buying stock cheap compared to their 52 week highs. Its good to have cash to deploy when opportinities present themselves.

    👍🏽, that’s what it’s about, being able to pivot with the current environment is what it’s all about.  

  • Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    Our economy hasn't recovered since the last crash. There are more jobs, but how many people are doing well? Most of those jobs are low wage service workers. It isn't like when my parents were young and an okay factory job bought you a modest home and car. My daughter's generation is the baby bust generation because many millenials can't afford to have kids until well into their 30's (or 40's) and they are only having one. Our economy looks alright. But it isn't. It's not on a cruise ship, it's on a life boat with waves crashing all around it. I don't know what needs to be done to fix it, but it looks really bad from where I am at. Here's to hoping I'm wrong and things rebound phenomenally.

  • Member since 2018 · 563 posts · 562 votes
    6y

    Clearly a recession...and probably the start of the apocalypse!

  • Member since 2020 · 26 posts · 43 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Isaac S.:

    Clearly a recession...and probably the start of the apocalypse!

    We're overdue for one of those too, might as well have one while we're at it.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 10 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel I don’t believe so. 08 was because too many people were in homes who shouldn’t have been. Since then, underwriting has tightened their requirements. In San Diego, much hasn’t changed still a sellers market. Government involvement with small businesses and offering resources like stimulus checks will keep units occupied. I see us getting through this with no major changes to the real estate market

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 10 votes
    6y

    @Joseph Cacciapaglia Notice he mentions the 1st of the month. Many Americans pay on the 2nd, 3rd or even middle of the month.

  • Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 139 posts · 140 votes
    6y

    @John Underwood i don't think so. Unemployment claims over 6.6 million, delays in providing assistance to small businesses who may not even get loans because their employees would rather collect unemployment benefits because its higher than their pay, stock market volatility, uncertainty with opening back businesses, extended stay at home orders and with covid, an estimated timeline of 18 months for vaccine development..? This screams recession/depression.

  • Real Estate Syndicator · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 907 votes
    6y

    Great insight!  I agree, regarding the impact to the real estate sector now vs 2008.  However, we are definitely already in a recession.  The better question is will we end up in a depression?  I believe we will.  Over $10 trillion has been taken out of world economy in the past few months.  A recession is inevitable at this point..

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Brock Mogensen

    We are not in a recession. Where do you get your facts?

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Sue K.

    Remember this, it’s the high density populated cities causing all the problems. Not the small rural areas. We should stay away from those disease infected cities going forward.

  • Member since 2020 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    I want to learn more and do you have any recommendations for someone looking to purchase properties in the Tampa, FL area with a VA home loan?

  • Real Estate Agent · Stillwater, OK · Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    I just sold my personal residence in the SW 15th and Mustang Rd area of Yukon, Ok. I owned the house for 2.5 years and gained 8.8% equity. I have a friend in the area who flips homes. He can't keep enough houses in the 130-160k's. Personally, I'm new to the real estate investment business. But, I'm focusing on finding some great deals that are sure to roll down the pipeline eventually. What are your thoughts on multifamily for this area?

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