Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Adiel GorelPro Member
Real Estate Broker · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 30 votes

As we all observe and fear the Coronavirus, we see many cities under “shelter-at-home” restrictions, and many “non-essential” businesses closing. Then on the other hand, the Fed lowered rates almost to zero, and mortgage rates, after a short spike, are starting to settle down near the lowest point ever. Some people fear a recession is likely to follow, and if we remember the recession of 2008, I think it’s quite possible. That depends, of course, on the length of the lock-down.

If a recession does occur, let’s point out some of the differences between the recession of 2008 and the next recession, if it hits.

Before the 2008 recession happened, there was a major boom in many states. Home prices in states like Arizona, Nevada and Florida went through the roof. The media was shouting “It’s a bubble! It has to burst!” Prices of homes in Phoenix, for example, nearly doubled from the beginning of 2004 till the middle of 2006. Not all states participated in the party, for example, Texas and Oklahoma have not gone up very much during that time.

When the 2008 recession hit, the markets that went down precipitously were, of course, the exact markets that had participated in the 2004-2006 boom. Places in Arizona, Nevada, Florida, and other states. Prices tanked and crashed quite a bit. However not across the board, states like Texas and Oklahoma did not go down very much during the recession of 2008.

By contrast, at the present time, especially in affordable markets like Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Baton Rouge, Central Florida, parts of Atlanta, Raleigh and others, there are currently no price bubbles. No major boom has happened, Thus the likelihood of a major price crash in such markets is much slimmer than the markets which crashed in the 2008 recession. There are very high priced markets now, the expensive markets in San Francisco, for example (which has already started going down in price last year). In such markets, there may be a stronger effect on prices. Also, when you invest in a brand new home in a good area in Oklahoma and pay $170,000. You are buying the home not much over the basic construction and land cost. Again, the probability of an “intrinsic value” home like this going down much is small. By contrast, a $2M home in San Francisco, which cost $900K to build, has a lot of “air” in the price, with a higher likelihood of prices going down in San Francisco.

The recession of 2008 was created by housing. Lenders released all limits, and loans were made to virtually anyone that was human, almost regardless of credit or ability to pay. Some loans were up to 125% of the value of the house. This bad debt, called “sub-prime”, was then packaged among other debt, and amazingly, the credit agency gave these packages high ratings, as if it was a quality debt product. Then these faulty packages sold on Wall Street, and financial wizards found way to leverage them enormously. Once defaults on the bad loans started to hit, the entire structure unraveled.

By contrast, at the present we are still under the Dodd-Frank Act, which was drafted after the 2008 recession. Borrowing is now much harder and lengthier than it was before the 2008 recession. Even borrowers with great credit are finding the current loan processes frustrating. The amount of sub-prime loans is minuscule relative the period preceding the 2008 recession, and steps were taken to make the abuses with rating agencies be much harder to repeat. Thus the next recession is likely not to be caused by bad loans. It is clear that if another recession comes, its effects on rental home investing will be quite different than the recession of 2008.

I believe that the best way to invest in real estate is to buy brand new homes, in affordable large metropolitan areas, where the rent numbers match well with prices. Then finance the homes with a fixed-rate loan. To the best of my knowledge long term fixed rate loans like we get here in the US don’t exist elsewhere. The monthly payment and the mortgage balance never change with the cost of living, while everything else does. That means inflation constantly erodes the true buying buyer of your debt, making your debt ever smaller in real dollars.

For these kinds of homes, purchased anywhere from $150K to $250K, I believe the effects of the next recession will be minimal. Rates are very low, however, so fixed rate loans will retain these great rates forever.

The act of buying good rental homes in large metro areas and holding them as rental for the long term, where the loan erodes, is a future-changer. It does not change your future instantly or even within a short time, but over the long term, this strategy is a powerful future changer. I have seen people retire well, send kids to college, and look much stronger financially thanks to these simple yet powerful investments.

Since these investments show their power over the long term, and since the interest rates are so favorable now, and since a possible impending recession is unlikely to have effects on prices like the 2008 recession, I believe this would be a good time to invest.

As an extra “bonus”, the virus fear creates more flexibility with sellers, including builders, and the ability to negotiate better prices.

I would be happy to discuss it with anyone who may wish to inquire further.

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Columbia, MD · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 169 votes
6y

We have strong economy ??? Really ? Do we? 10 days after the shut down of the country most Americans did NOT have the money to pay their rent on April 1st .... just freaking 10 days !!! They did not last one month !! San Antonio, food bank, feeds 120k people a week, millions on unemployment, in a few weeks you will hear about families with crazy hospital bills to pay ($20K-30K each) plus some will have funerals to pay for ( 5-10k) and that's while many were without any income coming in. Commercial real-estate owners about to lose their pants during corona epidemic, all those with over leveraged investments and kings of BRRRR will feel the sh** hitting the fan in like 3,2,1.....while rent goes un paid. This was not strong economy to begin with! Homes, cars and student loans leveraged to the brim while most pay the minimum is not a sign of strong economy.This was crap economy on borrowed time and borrowed cheap money. Sorry y'all

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  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:
    We are not in a recession. Where do you get your facts?

    Remember this, it’s the high density populated cities causing all the problems. Not the small rural areas. We should stay away from those disease infected cities going forward.

     If I may, I would like to know where you are getting your facts?

    Your thought process that it’s the major cities that are causing most of the problems and not the “rural areas” makes me suggest you research Economics a little deeper.

    The basics is that America is a Consumer driven economy and what drives the majority of national production/manufacturing is consumption of these “highly populated cities” you mentioned. If they’re not working and not spending, what do you think will happen economically in your ‘safe’ and “Rural Areas”? This is not even taking into consideration the fact that the world economy is impacted so any little exporting these rural areas do, also face the same faith. 

    In a world economy there are no silos in the US my friend. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    The shut down broke us down but only to hand out folks a BIG BIG WAKE UP CALL! Like a reset button

    Closing the economy killed us more than CONVID19 did (my opinion). We are humans are just not built to stay home and do nothing for extended periods of time. Once things are up and going again....it will take a few months to recovery but back to normal again hopefully with new beginnings and new behaviors!

    I do not feel it's gonna be a recession. I do feel it's gonna just be a slow start up, like, the restart we had after the 2008 crisis.....u know, like when folks wanted to jump in but was still scared...but after they started seeing and hearing folks closing real estate....working....starting businesss...having kids....getting divorced and married, posting happy pictures OK social platforms you know the normal stuff lol...

  • Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:

    @Brock Mogensen

    We are not in a recession. Where do you get your facts?

    A Recession is a lagging economic indicator. 

    The data is all out there in the St. Louis Fed, US Federal Reserve, US census data, Board of Governors of the US Federal Reserve System, Bureau of Labor Statistics, and other sites. The St. Louis Fed site is one of the most popular places to get aggregate economic data since they have integrated with other data sources (e.g. BLS) and their API tools are readily available to NGOs and the public.

    Almost all people posting on this topic say we are in a recession because the data shows that we are in a recession. Like unemployment, which is also a lagging indicator, people recently instead quote the 'real' rate based on weekly unemployment claims. The BLS "official" unemployment rate is 4.4%. But recent weekly unemployment claims, released by the US Department of Labor, show that about 13 million claims were filed in the last two weeks. The trailing four week moving average is 4.25M, indicating the 'real' unemployment will add about 10.9% to the official number, based on recent events (17M new claims / 156M working people.) So, if people say the unemployment number is over 15%, the number is calculated based on unemployment claims rather than the lagging unemployment indicator. Next month's BLS number will be close to 15%. 

    I go into detail here to hopefully answer your question. 

    How I translate this into real estate investing: I try to invest not where the market is, but where the market is going to be. If you follow lagging indicators for a direction on where a market is headed, then you will always be behind. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Enterprise, AL · Member since 2019 · 137 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel I thought it already had...

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 217 posts · 170 votes
    6y

    @Michael Sjodin

    Even worse, suddenly every car dealer in my area is offering 84 months! Seven years to pay off a car, unbelievable...

  • Real Estate Consultant · new york, NY · Member since 2019 · 34 posts · 28 votes
    6y

    @Jason C.

    Since people often roll their old loan into the new one when they trade in their car every few years it is basically a reverse debt snowball. The people who get those loans probably have a 20% chance of ever paying it off.

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Miguel Castro

    Simple just google what the definition of a recession is.  https://www.fool.com/the-ascen...

    Yes it is a fact that the Covid-19 virus is mostly happening where a large amount of people congregate such as New York City, California, New Jersey, Florida, Chicago, etc....   Why is it that in North Dakota, Montana and Wyoming have very little problems with this outbreak.  I live in Minnesota and our Governor was quick in issuing a stay at home order, which greatly helped use stop the spread and we are fairing quite well.  Because the economy and getting people back to work is very important, it is my opinion at some point the economy will need to open up and we will need to continue to use social distancing.  I also think that a slow implemention of those who are healthy, should be allowed to go back to work and open up their businesses under guidelines supplied by our leaders.  

    @Miguel Castro

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Chris Martin


    A depression is more severe than a recession. While a recession marks
    the contraction phase of a business cycle, when everything slows down
    for at least two quarters, a depression is a prolonged period of
    economic downturn during which a significant decline in economic
    indicators occurs. In short, these two factors set a depression apart
    from a recession: 

    https://www.fool.com/the-ascen...

    It hasn't been two quarters, so technically it isn't a recession yet.  I do believe it will be a short lived recession and once the country opens back up, we will experience a U shaped recovery.   I have taken advantage of the stock market and housing market when the herd took trillions out of the market, I bought.   I am selling my Airbnb and have made money off the sale and have been quite successful in the renting of the unit during this whole COVID-19 deal.  

  • Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    Maybe the shelter in place orders will cause us to create better spending habits with our money. Since we are basically buying just necessities, it may continue after the orders are lifted and less spending may cause economy to not recover as quickly.

  • LakeWood , CA · Member since 2018 · 268 posts · 331 votes
    6y

    I think we should be okay guys. Let’s just hope next month the economy opens up. Regardless if we keep the economy closed/open people will die. That’s life. 
    But I have to agree with alot of folks on here, I don’t think we have a recession or depression just yet. This isn’t a financial failure it’s a health issue. Asoon as the economy opens I doubt it’s going to spike Right back up I think it’s going to be alittle shy at first but slowly climb to where we were at once before 

  • New to Real Estate · Laramie, WY · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 11 votes
    6y

    I think there will be a lag phase after re-opening. Hopefully the opening happens in stages with lots of testing to avoid a second outbreak. The credit crunch may cause some problems with small businesses and there may be closures that take some time to recover from. Some of the jobs that renters had may be gone for a period of time until entrepreneurs have time to build up enough capital and restart.

  • Wholesaler · Arnold, MO · Member since 2013 · 348 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    Is it true that unemployment checks are being supplemented by an additional $600.00 a week? That's $15 an hour for a 40 hour week. That's more than most retail employees make! 

    If you get $500 +/- for unemployment and then an additional $600 a week and the stay at home orders are lifted within the next 4 weeks, I really don't see how we go into a recession/depression.

    I also don't see us ever paying off the national debt.

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    @Vince Mayer

    LOL.  Has our country ever cared about paying off the national debt?  It's like a credit card, where you keep asking for a limit increase and you only pay the interest.  

  • Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    We don't have any fair comparison with other experiences of the past. The economy was doing fine,until everything stop by the virus, it is an electoral year, Banks have money, many large companies were advise last year about an economic depression.
    If we are open for business on May 1st, it wont be the same, it will be restricted. The average John , who lives paycheck by paycheck,always will suffer. History repeat it self. Everything will change and we will have to play by ear, and give solutions to problems, as they come. We will have to adjust . Many fortunes were made after recessions and this one won't be the exception.

  • Member since 2020 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    It definitely going to take a while to be back to where we were. 

  • Lender · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    When You at home, and you are already thinking how you will pay for your mortgage payments next month and you are now calling your bank to see what your negotiation option are, sounds like 2008 Déjà vu [deʒa vy] to me.

  • Member since 2020 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    Unlike the last recession, this recession is an "artificial" recession all based on the virus itself. We left the economy strong as ever, jobs high, unemployment low, stock market jumping to 30,000, housing market strong...see this as a large "hiccup' correction.  As soon as we begin hearing some good news, the economy will slowly creep up again and then boooom! The stock market will boom first, The housing market will do the same. America is driven by greed and capitalism and nothing wrong with that.   Almost everyone will forget the past, and all will be back to normal........until the next disaster. 


  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @David Ginsburg:

    When You at home, and you are already thinking how you will pay for your mortgage payments next month and you are now calling your bank to see what your negotiation option are, sounds like 2008 Déjà vu [deʒa vy] to me.

    not a bank, but i couldn't even get thru to my citi card today (not covid-related). they simply said the lines are overloaded, good bye lol

  • Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 290 posts · 233 votes
    6y

    I spend much of my day reading & talking with people about the current RE market conditions, and for now,  Houston and much of Texas has faired well, so we are using caution when showing homes, and using technology to streamline much of the transactions. Buyers are making offers.  I think RE will see increased inventory steadily over the next 6 - 12 months.. with prices dropping maybe 10 - 15 % overall.  The secret is out, real estate is a great overall asset. 

    What I DO NOT understand, is the supreme confidence we're seeing in the stock market the past 2 weeks.  WHO is pouring money into this thing?  Wallstreet feels like it's just a giant scam sometimes.  

    I do worry that it'll be the big, BIG tech companies that just start to dominate moving forward.  FANGS stocks will capitalize on America's laziness at home, and Small businesses will be playing Russian roulette for 6 months... Sad. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:

    @Miguel Castro

    Simple just google what the definition of a recession is.  https://www.fool.com/the-ascen...

    Yes it is a fact that the Covid-19 virus is mostly happening where a large amount of people congregate such as New York City, California, New Jersey, Florida, Chicago, etc....   Why is it that in North Dakota, Montana and Wyoming have very little problems with this outbreak.  I live in Minnesota and our Governor was quick in issuing a stay at home order, which greatly helped use stop the spread and we are fairing quite well.  Because the economy and getting people back to work is very important, it is my opinion at some point the economy will need to open up and we will need to continue to use social distancing.  I also think that a slow implemention of those who are healthy, should be allowed to go back to work and open up their businesses under guidelines supplied by our leaders.  

    @Miguel Castro

     Totally agree we need to restart the Economy, but in a responsible way.  However, without the proper ability for testing, it will be a ‘hope for the best’ decision. 

    Yes there would be less infection rates in less populated areas, but they’re not immune, actually as of yesterday there is apparently at least 1 reported death from the virus in every state. Like your State, it was right to not downplay this at first and take the responsible actions they took to avoid widespread infections.

    As for the original reason for this thread, no Covid 19 won’t cause a recession (the other reasons I mentioned early is what would have caused it) Covid 19 just jump started prematurely the recession that was already coming. *The concerning part is that you don’t have the usual incentives that are used to help get the Economy going when in a Recession, interest rates are already low, money has already been printed and still is, etc.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 290 posts · 233 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jason C.:

    @Michael Sjodin

    Even worse, suddenly every car dealer in my area is offering 84 months! Seven years to pay off a car, unbelievable...

    Haha yup.   Anything to move a product! 

    New cars really are one of the worst purchases.  Until I reach the point where  money is pouring out the nose, I'll be a used-car buyer.   40% off for a car with 20k miles?  Yes plz. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Rosario Rolandi:

    The average John , who lives paycheck by paycheck,always will suffer.

     That’s a high percentage of America, high enough of a percentage to negatively impact the economy more than you suspect in my opinion. Americans household debt is high and wages have not kept up with this “great economy” many folks keep mentioning is springing back to life after this closure. 

    **Let me just put this seed in everyone’s mind that’s thinking the above: 

    In the 2008 debacle, The real estate crash mainly happened because people were being approved for loans on homes they couldn’t afford at the current prices then. Fast forward about 10 year, RE prices are higher than 2008 prices people couldn’t afford then, suddenly all these people can now afford these homes today at higher prices?? Wages haven’t grown that much to cover inflation and the higher RE prices they couldn’t afford them. Like I’ve seen in my market and it’s likely the same on others, there are just multiple generations and/or multiple families living in one home and as a whole able to qualify and pay the high mortgages (parents with kids moved back home, grandparents living with kids, roommates, a room or garage converted to rentable studios, etc). Sooo, the same buyers, but now qualify for the mortgages with the additional income sources mentioned above included. 

    The majority of Americans are highly leveraged and just a house of cards and we know what happens to a house of cards, Just my opinion and some things to consider. 

  • Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    Lets get back to normal.

    https://fundly.com/covid-19-testing-gt-solution-gt-detection-at-a-distance-joc4d

  • Member since 2017 · 143 posts · 76 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @John Underwood:

    We have a strong economy, the government is doing a great job of trying to prevent a meltdown.

    Once this is over I believe the economy and jobs will bounce back.

    The federal governments only plan of fixing anything is throw money at it. I strongly disagree with the path our elected officials went on this. Most of the American population live above their means, and have little to no savings for emergencies like this. This is the first mistake with our "must have" culture. Why don't the states pay for their own recovery, because the same mentality exists at the state level. Because they over spend and under deliver on everything and most are in debt including many major cities. Then the Federal government is the pimp that has everyone relying on them, but why do we think that they have the funds? They are $20,000,000,000,000+ (yes, this is a real number) in debt! What's another 2 trillion stimulus going to hurt? I believe the melt down has existed for a while, and when we spend our country into oblivion, people will be forced to rely on themselves and not the government. 

    Curious to see the reaction to my soapbox tangent. And no, I do not live in a bunker and I am not on any Prepper television show. HAHA !

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 124 posts · 38 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    Yes. It is a recession already. The question is for how long.

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