Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Will COVID-19 Cause a Recession?

Adiel GorelPro Member
Real Estate Broker · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 30 votes

As we all observe and fear the Coronavirus, we see many cities under “shelter-at-home” restrictions, and many “non-essential” businesses closing. Then on the other hand, the Fed lowered rates almost to zero, and mortgage rates, after a short spike, are starting to settle down near the lowest point ever. Some people fear a recession is likely to follow, and if we remember the recession of 2008, I think it’s quite possible. That depends, of course, on the length of the lock-down.

If a recession does occur, let’s point out some of the differences between the recession of 2008 and the next recession, if it hits.

Before the 2008 recession happened, there was a major boom in many states. Home prices in states like Arizona, Nevada and Florida went through the roof. The media was shouting “It’s a bubble! It has to burst!” Prices of homes in Phoenix, for example, nearly doubled from the beginning of 2004 till the middle of 2006. Not all states participated in the party, for example, Texas and Oklahoma have not gone up very much during that time.

When the 2008 recession hit, the markets that went down precipitously were, of course, the exact markets that had participated in the 2004-2006 boom. Places in Arizona, Nevada, Florida, and other states. Prices tanked and crashed quite a bit. However not across the board, states like Texas and Oklahoma did not go down very much during the recession of 2008.

By contrast, at the present time, especially in affordable markets like Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Baton Rouge, Central Florida, parts of Atlanta, Raleigh and others, there are currently no price bubbles. No major boom has happened, Thus the likelihood of a major price crash in such markets is much slimmer than the markets which crashed in the 2008 recession. There are very high priced markets now, the expensive markets in San Francisco, for example (which has already started going down in price last year). In such markets, there may be a stronger effect on prices. Also, when you invest in a brand new home in a good area in Oklahoma and pay $170,000. You are buying the home not much over the basic construction and land cost. Again, the probability of an “intrinsic value” home like this going down much is small. By contrast, a $2M home in San Francisco, which cost $900K to build, has a lot of “air” in the price, with a higher likelihood of prices going down in San Francisco.

The recession of 2008 was created by housing. Lenders released all limits, and loans were made to virtually anyone that was human, almost regardless of credit or ability to pay. Some loans were up to 125% of the value of the house. This bad debt, called “sub-prime”, was then packaged among other debt, and amazingly, the credit agency gave these packages high ratings, as if it was a quality debt product. Then these faulty packages sold on Wall Street, and financial wizards found way to leverage them enormously. Once defaults on the bad loans started to hit, the entire structure unraveled.

By contrast, at the present we are still under the Dodd-Frank Act, which was drafted after the 2008 recession. Borrowing is now much harder and lengthier than it was before the 2008 recession. Even borrowers with great credit are finding the current loan processes frustrating. The amount of sub-prime loans is minuscule relative the period preceding the 2008 recession, and steps were taken to make the abuses with rating agencies be much harder to repeat. Thus the next recession is likely not to be caused by bad loans. It is clear that if another recession comes, its effects on rental home investing will be quite different than the recession of 2008.

I believe that the best way to invest in real estate is to buy brand new homes, in affordable large metropolitan areas, where the rent numbers match well with prices. Then finance the homes with a fixed-rate loan. To the best of my knowledge long term fixed rate loans like we get here in the US don’t exist elsewhere. The monthly payment and the mortgage balance never change with the cost of living, while everything else does. That means inflation constantly erodes the true buying buyer of your debt, making your debt ever smaller in real dollars.

For these kinds of homes, purchased anywhere from $150K to $250K, I believe the effects of the next recession will be minimal. Rates are very low, however, so fixed rate loans will retain these great rates forever.

The act of buying good rental homes in large metro areas and holding them as rental for the long term, where the loan erodes, is a future-changer. It does not change your future instantly or even within a short time, but over the long term, this strategy is a powerful future changer. I have seen people retire well, send kids to college, and look much stronger financially thanks to these simple yet powerful investments.

Since these investments show their power over the long term, and since the interest rates are so favorable now, and since a possible impending recession is unlikely to have effects on prices like the 2008 recession, I believe this would be a good time to invest.

As an extra “bonus”, the virus fear creates more flexibility with sellers, including builders, and the ability to negotiate better prices.

I would be happy to discuss it with anyone who may wish to inquire further.

30Reply
519 views

Most Popular Reply

Columbia, MD · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 169 votes
6y

We have strong economy ??? Really ? Do we? 10 days after the shut down of the country most Americans did NOT have the money to pay their rent on April 1st .... just freaking 10 days !!! They did not last one month !! San Antonio, food bank, feeds 120k people a week, millions on unemployment, in a few weeks you will hear about families with crazy hospital bills to pay ($20K-30K each) plus some will have funerals to pay for ( 5-10k) and that's while many were without any income coming in. Commercial real-estate owners about to lose their pants during corona epidemic, all those with over leveraged investments and kings of BRRRR will feel the sh** hitting the fan in like 3,2,1.....while rent goes un paid. This was not strong economy to begin with! Homes, cars and student loans leveraged to the brim while most pay the minimum is not a sign of strong economy.This was crap economy on borrowed time and borrowed cheap money. Sorry y'all

See this reply in the discussion

178 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 95 posts · 46 votes
    6y

    The biggest mistake people make in every recession is to think that “this time it’s different”.

    Covid or not, those who believed this economy could have rallied to the moon for another decade are absolute fools.

    The economy was stretched to the maximum on every metric and everyone on Wall Street knew it was coming.

    The triggers of a recession are irrelevant because the financial cycles are the product of mass human psychology; a self realizing prophecy based the belief of patterns and that what happened in the past repeats itself. It’s pretty clear now where we are standing in that cycle.

    After that bull trap / dead cat bounce phase, we will very likely have a massive market capitulation (prob end of summer / year) and a slow recovery over at least 3 years

  • Investor · Harvest, AL · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    Heard a investment analyst the other day on Bloomberg say that social distancing will cause indoor location based entertainment businesses (restaurants, bars, theaters, arenas, etc.) to lose 30-60% of their current capacity.  Not sure where/how he got his estimate but if something like that turns out to be true, what would be the impact on commercial real estate?  REITs, etc?

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2020 · 11 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    I believe we will go into a recession - I think it will be different from 2008 in that the loss in US Housing Market value will be more "normal" closer to 10% versus 30%+ drop - loss of $3-4 trillion versus $10+ trillion in value.  (Now this is my humble opinion and my real answer is to say "ask me in 12 months and I'll tell you exactly what will happen in the summer of 2020" but in the name of debate and honest conversation...)

    I base this on where the housing market has come from over the last decade and where we were headed.  I like default rates as a measure at the moment along with all the other classics. I think Govt intervention will play a part (at 2 trillion dollars) and boring old real estate cycles. 

    I read a great study by Ted C. Jones - def worth a look at. He looked at other recent major events and how it affected the economy and housing here in the US.  Gave me quiet optimism. In short, my take him from it was, wherever we were headed is where we will go.   We were probably headed for a down cycle sometime soon...


    2 huge unknowns for me are:

    1. CO-VID 19 - obviously - is this worse than SARS - I never totally know with news acting as entertainment versus news

    2. People's perception - 2008 is what a lot of people consider to be a normal recession as that what they remember.  Historically it wasn't normal at all.  However, as I am a huge believer in the influence on people's perception o where we end up t- how do I put this - hmmm... If everyone believes and says we will lose 50% of the value and everyone says that the housing market is only worth $17 trillion - then guess what - that what it is worth.. right?

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    And hot off the press, just announced today in California:

    The coronavirus has officially launched California into a recession, and a potentially severe one that could last for several budget cycles, state lawmakers and financial experts say.

    Full story here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/california-is-now-in-a-recession-that-could-last-years-state-fiscal-experts-say/ar-BB12Kwuy


  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Any answer is 100% speculation.  Nobody knows.  Lots of people will guess and give reasons as to why x leads to y but the truth is, we dont know.

  • Real Estate Investor · Chico, CA · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Rick Pozos:


    Texas counties re-appraise properties every year so the tax cost of a house (about 2.8%).....

    Is it really 2.8%? Thats insane. I was serious about buying there 2.5 years ago. It seemed like the more I looked the property tax would just absolutely crush the cash flow. It was frustrating because the prices weren't bad. I was looking for duplexes. I believed at that time my numbers came out to 2.2% after talking to a few agents but again, this was 2.5 years ago. 

    @Luke Ski

  • Wholesaler · Arnold, MO · Member since 2013 · 348 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    Check out WalMart's earnings report when it comes out for this quarter. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the stimulus deposits that have started hitting are really stimulating Walmart's earnings. If true, the bills aren't getting paid however TVs and phones are flying off the shelf!

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 19 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Andrew Galeano:

    @Theresa Harris

    Man the stock market is the worlds greatest ponzi scheme. Inflated markets stocks rising company production NOT. look at the charts. Thats an online casino.

     I say Social Security is the world’s largest legal Ponzi scheme. Someone chooses to invest in stocks, if you work in America you’re forced to pay into S.S.. The folks getting paid now are getting paid from the folks that are working and paying into the system. 

    The governments own estimates are that Social Security will be depleted by the year 2030-ish, now with Covid making a whole lot of folks filling for early retirement just to get some money coming in (money going out) and so many out of work (money not going in) depletion will probably be at the end of this decade smh. A lot of folks are going to be 🤷🏽‍♂️ my money. 

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Nobody knows.  It is all speculation.  

  • Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    The advance estimate of 2020Q1 GDP is in a week, before markets open, three full trading days before 5/1 options expirations. The first GDP number (which will be revised to better precision in later weeks) will give an indication of where we are recession-wise. 

    From FactSet last Friday, in 

    "The blended (combines actual results for companies that have reported and estimated results for companies that have yet to report) earnings decline for the first quarter is -14.5%, which is larger than the earnings decline of -12.0% last week. Negative earnings surprises reported by companies in the Financials sector were mainly responsible for the increase in the overall earnings decline during the week. If -14.5% is the actual decline for the quarter, it will mark the largest year-over-year decline in earnings for the index since Q3 2009 (-15.7%). It will also mark the fourth time in the past five quarters in which the index has reported a year-over-year decline in earnings. Five sectors are reporting (or are predicted to report) year-over-year growth in earnings, led by the Communication Services sector. Six sectors are reporting (or are predicted to report) a year-over-year decline in earnings, led by the Energy, Financials, Consumer Discretionary, Industrials, and Materials sectors."

  • Investor · Harvest, AL · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    So, what then do you recommend, wait?

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y

    I don't have time to read all the responses, but I'll throw my opinion into the mix because I've been saying this for over a month already. We are going to see a ton of money poured back into the economy during the summer of 2020. People will start spending like drunken sailors because they never learn and assume the government will always be there to bail them out (despite the fact our government is the cause of the mess, not the cure). The mixture of optimism and "free" money will bump the economy back and we'll be looking strong going into the fall. We won't fully recover, but I suspect we'll recover as much as 80% of what was lost.

    The real recession is farther out, maybe fall/winter of 2021. I am not an expert economics but I do know one thing: you don't get something for nothing. Governments around the world are printing make-believe money and dumping into the economy, which is nothing but a lie. That will have a negative impact and I predict it's going to be much bigger than any experts are expecting.

    We're also seeing government take unprecedented steps to violate basic rights. People have been sucked into the narrative and are operating on fear, thereby allowing government to walk all over our freedoms. This is emboldening our governments (and other groups like social media) and showing them what society will accept. When the real crash hits, I predict we'll see more personal rights disappear and it will probably be permanent just like TSA and air travel.

    Just one man's opinion that's worth what you paid for it.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews
  • Southeast · Member since 2019 · 23 posts · 4 votes
    6y

    I'm getting off the economic recession prediction topic here with some timeline commentary. Forgive me if I state the obvious; Fed unemployment benefit expires after four months, correct? That timeline puts us around July/ August which coincides with the 'back to school' ritual. If this state by state economic restart doesn't get momentum by July/August then it'll interfere with another school year and consequently burden parent work schedules. That would contribute GREATLY to economic woes. 

    And another thing. 

    There isn't a line long enough for haircuts, nail salons, pet stores or whatever that would move the economic needle. Don't kid yourself, an economic shutdown of ONE DAY is beyond grotesque and incomprehensible but months? 

    Maybe shift from thinking in terms of Recession or Depression but the new norm of a Government influenced and moderated economy. The government intervention, subsidizing the economy with bailout and programs happened before, Too Big To Fail 2.0 if you read the book. 

  • Investor · NEPA /NJ · Member since 2019 · 44 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    We are already in a recession. 

    According to major banks the GDP in Q1 is expected to drop by 7% while Q2 could reach 30% drop. Technically 2 consecutive quarterly GDP contractions define a recession. 

    Currently (April 28, 2020) there are 27M jobless claims approximately 16% unemployment rate reaching the levels of 2008 in terms of unemployment. 

    However, some differences I see in comparison to 2008:

    1. Supply and Demand of houses: both are impacted, inventory is low (supply) and also less buyers (demand) who might be cautious to make major investments.

    2. Lending regulations: this time they are much tighter -  which will avoid sub-prime mortgages and the huge collapse we saw in 2008 

    3. Federal financial stimulus: the government acted much quicker this time injecting liquidity into the market with the stimulus packages. The question is the amount of $ in the market will translate into a fast V-shape recovery (this is what the stock market is pricing in now). Most likely it will be a slow recovery.

    Any further thoughts?

  • Ryan RohlfPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2020 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    It will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure. Lot's of great things to consider here! Gov. loans are starting to have much stricter requirements, minimum 660 cs and lower DTI in order to qualify. They're tightening things up in an effort to curb first payment defaults, from what I understand. I saw the article from Chase Bank, too, very interesting. I haven't seen any of the lenders I work with requiring 20% yet, however time will tell what is going to happen. Thanks for all your insights on this!

  • Specialist · Plano, TX · Member since 2020 · 2k+ posts · 861 votes
    6y

    It's tough to say and only time will tell. I do think that as soon as people are able to get back to work, the economy will pick back up quickly so hopefully we will not hurt as bad as we did on the 2008 market crash. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2020 · 80 posts · 102 votes
    6y

    The previous expansionary period has been one of the longest on record.  Economies are cyclical.  The goal (was? should be?) to dampen the peaks and troughs while sustaining overall growth and employment.  There will be (we are already in) a recession.  One contemporary issue is that there is not a lot of historical record of "pandemic" related recessions but we can look to 2008 for some similarities and concerns (e.g. contagion affect and concern of systemic failure, freezing up of secondary mortgage market).  The stimulus injected so far has been massive.  However, rates were already incredibly low and the problem with the unfettered QE during boom times is that it does not allow for as much cushion or tools during times like now.  Of course, this is just my general thoughts condensed into "post form".  Some of the smartest people money can buy are out there trying to figure out what comes next :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2016 · 337 posts · 470 votes
    6y

    Interesting thread.  It is all speculation as to what happens next.  We are already in a recession, yes.  Will we head into a depression?  I don't think demand is coming back this summer, and I don't think it will be back for quite a while.  Fear is a powerful motivator.  I think what is most interesting about this crisis is that there is no precedence for literally the entire world shutting their respective economies down at the same time.  We can print money in the short-term to remain solvent, but at some point that has consequences that are unintended and unpleasant for the standard of living we've grown accustomed to.   

  • Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    It already has...unemployment at 16% and growing.  "When you're going through hell, keep going..."  (Churchill).  So keep going, innovate, get creative with tenants who think they "can't/don't have to pay," and make your own way out of this mess.  I look forward to cheering you on and hearing of your successes.  

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 71 posts · 38 votes
    6y

    @Adiel Gorel

    Yes without a doubt we will have a recession and depending were you are in the country will determine how bad you will be affected. Towns and cities that depend on tourism like Las Vegas, Orlando, Miami,... will get hit harder.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2012 · 37 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Scott S.

    Thank you for your post and JPMORGAN link

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    I know lets just print like another 10 trillion dollars!  We can keep all the asset prices high for the rich guys and inflate away their debt while the middle class can see all of their savings get inflated away along with the purchasing power of their wages.  Welcome to America it ain’t fair and to an extent the system is rigged but its still the best hope to get the world out of this mess.  Hey at least we aren’t creating diseases in labs and the letting them escape to create world pandemics.  

    @Patricia Steiner

    Here is another Churchill (might be Bismarck) quote, “America always does the right thing after every other option has failed.”  Sounds about right LOL,

  • Herm M.Pro Member
    Real Estate Investor · NorCal, CA · Member since 2009 · 273 posts · 43 votes
    5y

    let's revisit this thread, five months later.

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Adiel Gorel

    In my humble opinion it seems like on this trajectory we are in there won’t be as much of a crash as there will be a widening wealth gap & incredible transfer of wealth.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.