Renting to a violent felon?

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Renting to a violent felon?

MarieChele PorterPro Member
San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 193 posts · 98 votes

Hey y'all,

I know this post is going to seem so rookie to a lot of you but here we go I need your help... I had a potential tenant come by last week (alone) and fell in love with the property... It's not rented yet and she wanted to come by again with her husband and 2 children, which they did tonight... They were pretty much instant friends with me, my mom, and niece and applied before even leaving my house... 

Well low risk credit scores, no evictions, but wait spouse has a murder conviction?!!!... Oh boy... So it was explained to me what happened by the wife he was 17 and went to jail for 25 years and got out 2 years ago...

I'm not a type of person that won't give someone a shot... He left the state it happened when he got out started a new life has a job for nearly a year and is ready to be done with that part of his life...

My question is what type of liability could this open me up to if any? I read that in some states landlords have been sued for knowing about a violent past and something happening at the unit... This is a 2 unit current house hack but I won't be here forever... Am I opening myself up to potential liability issues in the future? Or is it okay to rent to someone that is done with their past and just wants to move on???? 

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Account Closed
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
5y

I will flip it around a little bit, if you develop your screening standards beforehand, you won't have this dilemma on your hands.  I haven't run into this myself, but if you decline one applicant for reason X, but accept another applicant even though they also had reason X, someone might make the case it was due to the first applicant being part of a protected class. 

There is a mega-landlord in my state that publishes their rental criteria, and I like their document for being a good model to work off of when developing your own criteria:    https://www.vinebrookhomes.com...     Page 3 has a nice table.  (I am not at all connected to this company) 

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  • Brian Garlington
    Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter     Look at the big picture. 

    You move out.....a tenant moves in where you were.....and AFTER they move in they find out that their next door neighbot.....at a property was convicted of murder.....and you didn't tell them before they moved in.....how does that tenant now feel about their "landlord".     

    Or........

    You DO tell potential tenants....and for some reason you find it harder to get that vacant unit filled.....but when you DO get it filled you will always wonder....what kind of tenant is OK with living next door to a convicted murderer? 

    Oh,....and how does the conversation go if they are ever late with the rent? Do you feel comfortable going over to the house to ask them what's up?  Perhaps they put in an urgent maintenance request....will you feel "some kind of way" wondering what will ever happen when you have a landlord/tenant dispute with them?

    Believe me...I'm all about giving second chances....and third chances.....that's one of the many reasons I rent to Section 8 tenants....but I will never rent to anyone with a murder on the books.

    1Reply
  • Chris John
    Member since 2020 · 671 posts · 937 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter

    My knee-jerk reaction is and was "heck, no"!  However, in the extremely UNLIKELY event that his story checks out (I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to verify a story like that I wouldn't think), I'd consider him a killer and not a murderer.  I get it's not a distinction that everyone's comfortable with, but I don't consider soldiers murderers and this would fall closer to that (for me).  More than likely though, he's a liar (among other things...) and a hard pass. 

    2Reply
  • Francois G.
    Real Estate Agent · New York, NY · Member since 2020 · 62 posts · 72 votes
    5y

    I'm shocked by these comments and I'm surprised so many people claim they would be ok with this. Most of us are open to 2nd chances (im open to even more) but this is a different ballgame especially when other families will be living in close proximity.

    The answer is a hard no for SO many reasons. Potential tenants who fall in love with the property and become friends with your family should never be the criteria used to fill a vacancy. I will promise you one thing... they will NOT be this friendly to you and your family when they're 60 days behind on rent. 

    You said you're house hacking, are you comfortable sleeping in the same house as a convicted murderer? When they're blasting music at 2am, are you comfortable knocking on the door to tell them to lower the music? How do you plan to deal with the situation if they fall behind on rent? Living in California (a well known landlord-friendly state) is even more of a reason why this should be a hard no. In the middle of a pandemic when we have a federal eviction moratorium for at least 8 more months? I'm literally shaking my head just typing this out.

    This is going to sound harsh and I'm not trying to be rude/mean/disrespectful but I'm telling you this for your own safety and well being. Don't rent this unit to them because you seem too naive to be involved with these kind of tenants. The landlords who are able to handle these kinds of risks have specific systems in place. If you're asking a public forum for the answer to this, I don't think you're prepared to handle these kind of tenants in real life. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or disrespect you. I'm telling you this for your own good. There are plenty of potential tenants (especially now) out there who will be less headache and less risk.

    Good luck to you.

    4Reply
  • Carrie A.
    Dubois, IN · Member since 2016 · 120 posts · 16 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter I would not rent to them. Murder? Not something lesser? Murder means he intentionally killed someone.

    0Reply
  • Michael Coates
    Rental Property Investor · Clinton pa · Member since 2019 · 20 posts · 15 votes
    5y

    @Mikel Kaubfa I would definitely agree with you on that disqualification

    0Reply
  • Grey Stone
    Investor · Palmdale · Member since 2016 · 112 posts · 80 votes
    5y

    Sounds nice to say everyone deserves a second chance, however that is not my truth. The tenants we choose are essentially our business partners....and I'm NOT going into business with criminals. You'll find when renting units people want safe areas away, far away from rapists, murderers, pedos, etc. So when it comes to renting the other unit, I feel you would need to disclose that and it would heavily impact the desirability of the other unit. I just see too mamy issues. Like another commenter said regarding any future disagreement you may have with this tenant, if you decide to rent to them. He may not be a bad person and he may have learned from the experience, but in absolutely no way am I willing to risk my business for a murderer.

    2Reply
  • Grey Stone
    Investor · Palmdale · Member since 2016 · 112 posts · 80 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Francois G.:

    I'm shocked by these comments and I'm surprised so many people claim they would be ok with this. Most of us are open to 2nd chances (im open to even more) but this is a different ballgame especially when other families will be living in close proximity.

    The answer is a hard no for SO many reasons. Potential tenants who fall in love with the property and become friends with your family should never be the criteria used to fill a vacancy. I will promise you one thing... they will NOT be this friendly to you and your family when they're 60 days behind on rent. 

    You said you're house hacking, are you comfortable sleeping in the same house as a convicted murderer? When they're blasting music at 2am, are you comfortable knocking on the door to tell them to lower the music? How do you plan to deal with the situation if they fall behind on rent? Living in California (a well known landlord-friendly state) is even more of a reason why this should be a hard no. In the middle of a pandemic when we have a federal eviction moratorium for at least 8 more months? I'm literally shaking my head just typing this out.

    This is going to sound harsh and I'm not trying to be rude/mean/disrespectful but I'm telling you this for your own safety and well being. Don't rent this unit to them because you seem too naive to be involved with these kind of tenants. The landlords who are able to handle these kinds of risks have specific systems in place. If you're asking a public forum for the answer to this, I don't think you're prepared to handle these kind of tenants in real life. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or disrespect you. I'm telling you this for your own good. There are plenty of potential tenants (especially now) out there who will be less headache and less risk.

    Good luck to you.

     I completely agree with him. And regarding the prospective tenants being kind to you and your family....whenever tenants try too hard to connect with me or keep affirming that they are Christians (I am too) and "good people", my BS meter goes up because oftentimes they are hiding something. Also, think to yourself why are so many landlords choosing to not rent to them when most landlords main objective is to fill a unit. Just my two cents.

    0Reply
  • Rob Gillespie
    Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter

    I can understand your concern, however unless there was a pattern of things happening recently I would not worry about it.

    As far as liability goes, anybody can sue anyone else at any time for anything, LOL

    I am definitely want to give second chances to people trying to get their life in order.

    In short, I would rent to them, however I would definitely tread lightly if there’s an eviction and not be the one to deliver the three day notice, LOL

    Good luck!

    1Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    5y

    There are good reasons for both sides. Personally, it's been 25 years since the crime and (more importantly) he's bee out for two years and living successfully. I would prefer to see him out of prison for five years, but it depends on all the details.

    My bigger concern is that you apparently became friends with these people. That's a bad idea with any renter. Once you become friends, the relationship is no longer business and you'll have a very difficult time with anyone that becomes problematic. They'll wrap you up in their drama, ask for special concessions, and more.

    Good luck.

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    3Reply
  • Steve Morris
    Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    I'm willing to accept and have rented to priors.  It depends on how recent and type of crime (ie NO posted sex offenders).

    Biggest issue is going to be their associates.  We don't mainstream those with criminal past very well which tends to make them associate with similar people.  These associates may show up andfnot be on the lease and can be intimidating.

    If you've got a vulnerable population (think elderly and single mothers), you need to think about them first.

    0Reply
  • Lauren Ruppert
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 67 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter We rented to a "felon" and his wife. They are the only tenants who have paid on time every month with no drama. Oh, he was changed with manslaughter. Is he a violent guy? No. Would he defend his child at any cost? Yes. I had no problem with that.

    2Reply
  • Lauren Ruppert
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 67 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter Marie, be part of the solution. He may be your best tenant if it's this difficult for him to rent a place.

    1Reply
  • Johanna Montanez
    Rental Property Investor · Wilson, NC · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    @Nicky Reader, Thanks for shared this value information will help other rookie like me to avoid same situation and can drive us to establishing the standard.

    0Reply
  • MarieChele PorterPro Member
    OP
    San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 193 posts · 98 votes
    5y

    @Ola Dantis

    Yes, I think the part that really through me was them being here talking to us getting to know each other applying before leaving and then boom I find out on the criminal report... I'm like why didn't you tell me before like I wasn't going to find out or brush it off like ahh it's just a murder conviction... I think I wouldn't have been so thrown if one of them would have told me before I found out on my own... She told me the circumstances afterwards which best explained is murder by association bc he was involved but did not actually pull the trigger... Their credit is also in the 500's bc they don't really have any but there income qualifies them and section 8... I'll try my best to check out the story.. They're both working have 2 children that will be living here and will most likely be long term tenants as it's hard for them to move and my home is freshly remodeled... I guess I'm weighing pros and cons...

    0Reply
  • Jack Carda
    Investor · Keesler Air Force Base, MS · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    You obviously have a good heart, which is why you're asking the question. There is a lot of good feedback on this post, which you hopefully find valuable. I don't have an answer for your liability question, but I think I know how I would handle the overall situation, personally. That doesn't matter, though. You will ultimately have to reflect on your values, vision, and goals to determine what is best for you. 

    Consider 20 years from now: write down the best-case scenario, worst-case scenario, and maybe one or two more probable scenarios. What are the likelihoods of those scenarios? Ask yourself why you're an investor. If you find yourself in one of the better scenarios, how much further does that propel your vision? If you end up with one of the worse scenarios, was the knowledge gained worth the challenges faced? Does that knowledge accelerate your vision?

    I realize I answered zero of your questions but I hope it will help you find your answer.

    1Reply
  • Stephanie F.Pro Member
    New to Real Estate · Houston · Member since 2019 · 19 posts · 15 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter

    Sounds like you are letting your emotions into your business.

    What is your prescreen criteria ?

    What is your rental criteria (what goes it take to “pass” a background check ?

    If they don’t meet the criteria, then you don’t do business with them. It’s business, not personal.

    Business is about risk management and working to your numbers, goals, and criteria.

    1Reply
  • Stephanie F.Pro Member
    New to Real Estate · Houston · Member since 2019 · 19 posts · 15 votes
    5y

    @Nicky Reader

    Thanks for sharing ! Adding this to my resources , love that it’d published.

    0Reply
  • Blaine Atkinson
    Real Estate Agent · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2021 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter

    I do a lot of prison mentorship in my free time and am certified to speak in prisons in both Florida and Georgia.

    If you look at it statistically, most of the reoffenders are guys who had a relatively short sentence and haven't outgrown that period of their lives. Many of the people you speak with that have violent crimes, while terrible, are not what you expect. Their whole lives didn't lead them to the point that locked them up. Many were in a situation, a very sorry moment, where they made a poor decision.

    If it's someone that has multiple and repeated offenses, that's another topic. If it's an individual who made a bad decision 10 or 20 years ago, had a decent disciplinary record while incarcerated (it's impossible to stay out of every incident of you're incarcerated for any amount of time), and have stabilized their life with a family, you're probably going to be dealing with a normal guy who made a poor decision in his past.

    There are so many of us who could have been incarcerated along the way but we just didn't get caught... Obviously, I'm not equating that to a murder.

    Like all things, take the circumstances into account and look at who he is today. We have all become different than we were 20 years ago. I know I have.

    1Reply
  • Claudio Zocchi
    Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter  Its not rare to have disputes with tenants.  Would you be comfortable discussing something with somebody who did 25 years in jails for murder?

    0Reply
  • Adam Martin
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @MarieChele Porter:

    @Ola Dantis



    This quote sealed the deal as a no for me. They were not upfront with this and were hoping you wouldn't notice. I always tell people I am doing a credit and background check on the walkthrough. They are warned that this is your chance to explain yourself to me if there are any issues and I can let you know if what will come up is something that will immediately disqualify you so you don't waste your money. They are also told that if there is anything I see that I wasn't warned about it is a immediate disqualification for any crimes, bankrupcies, and evictions. I'll listen to their story and evaluate the circumstances, length of time since it happened, and severity of the crime to make a desision. These people lied by omission at the very least and outright lied if you asked if you would find anything, if you didn't ask start doing so. If murder and a 500 credit score aren't disqualifiers for you I am really curious what is as this sounds like a pretty bad tenant. Is the property still posted and have you gotten any other interest, if you ware willing to accept section 8 I feel you can get a lot more interest and a better tenant.

    Yes, I think the part that really through me was them being here talking to us getting to know each other applying before leaving and then boom I find out on the criminal report... I'm like why didn't you tell me before like I wasn't going to find out or brush it off like ahh it's just a murder conviction... I think I wouldn't have been so thrown if one of them would have told me before I found out on my own... She told me the circumstances afterwards which best explained is murder by association bc he was involved but did not actually pull the trigger... Their credit is also in the 500's bc they don't really have any but there income qualifies them and section 8... I'll try my best to check out the story.. They're both working have 2 children that will be living here and will most likely be long term tenants as it's hard for them to move and my home is freshly remodeled... I guess I'm weighing pros and cons...

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @MarieChele Porter:

    Hey y'all,

    I know this post is going to seem so rookie to a lot of you but here we go I need your help... I had a potential tenant come by last week (alone) and fell in love with the property... It's not rented yet and she wanted to come by again with her husband and 2 children, which they did tonight... They were pretty much instant friends with me, my mom, and niece and applied before even leaving my house... 

    Well low risk credit scores, no evictions, but wait spouse has a murder conviction?!!!... Oh boy... So it was explained to me what happened by the wife he was 17 and went to jail for 25 years and got out 2 years ago...

    I'm not a type of person that won't give someone a shot... He left the state it happened when he got out started a new life has a job for nearly a year and is ready to be done with that part of his life...

    My question is what type of liability could this open me up to if any? I read that in some states landlords have been sued for knowing about a violent past and something happening at the unit... This is a 2 unit current house hack but I won't be here forever... Am I opening myself up to potential liability issues in the future? Or is it okay to rent to someone that is done with their past and just wants to move on???? 

     Deny the tenant and move on. Giving 2nd chances is a great way to lose money.

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

    @MarieChele Porter

    I do a lot of prison mentorship in my free time and am certified to speak in prisons in both Florida and Georgia.

    If you look at it statistically, most of the reoffenders are guys who had a relatively short sentence and haven't outgrown that period of their lives. Many of the people you speak with that have violent crimes, while terrible, are not what you expect. Their whole lives didn't lead them to the point that locked them up. Many were in a situation, a very sorry moment, where they made a poor decision.

    If it's someone that has multiple and repeated offenses, that's another topic. If it's an individual who made a bad decision 10 or 20 years ago, had a decent disciplinary record while incarcerated (it's impossible to stay out of every incident of you're incarcerated for any amount of time), and have stabilized their life with a family, you're probably going to be dealing with a normal guy who made a poor decision in his past.

    There are so many of us who could have been incarcerated along the way but we just didn't get caught... Obviously, I'm not equating that to a murder.

    Like all things, take the circumstances into account and look at who he is today. We have all become different than we were 20 years ago. I know I have.

     This is horrible advice.

    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Lauren Ruppert:

    @MarieChele Porter Marie, be part of the solution. He may be your best tenant if it's this difficult for him to rent a place.

     Solution to what? Terrible advice. He is an above average risk. Taking unnecessary risks with no additional benefit is horrible business.

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    @MarieChele Porter Who did he put down for references? Have you talked to them? Have you read the criminal complaint and court docs? I would do those things. I also use honestrenter.com  in an effort to weed out tenants with entitlement issues. If you do go with them, I'd only do month-to-month so you can get them out faster if you have issues. Wait. I see you are in CA; is that where your rental is located? It's so hard to get people out in CA that I don't think I'd take the chance especially with the eviction moratorium dragging on.

    Tremendous waste of time. Deny without giving it a second thought is the only appropriate business decision here.

    1Reply
  • Blaine Atkinson
    Real Estate Agent · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2021 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    @James Wise

    So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

    I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

    If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

    0Reply
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