Hey y'all, I know this post is going to seem so rookie to a lot of you but here we go I need your help... I had a potential tenant come by last week (alone) and fell in love with the property... It's not rented yet and she wanted to come by again with her husband and 2 children, which they did tonight... They were pretty much instant friends with me, my mom, and niece and applied before even leaving my house... Well low risk credit scores, no evictions, but wait spouse has a murder conviction?!!!... Oh boy... So it was explained to me what happened by the wife he was 17 and went to jail for 25 years and got out 2 years ago... I'm not a type of person that won't give someone a shot... He left the state it happened when he got out started a new life has a job for nearly a year and is ready to be done with that part of his life... My question is what type of liability could this open me up to if any? I read that in some states landlords have been sued for knowing about a violent past and something happening at the unit... This is a 2 unit current house hack but I won't be here forever... Am I opening myself up to potential liability issues in the future? Or is it okay to rent to someone that is done with their past and just wants to move on????

I will flip it around a little bit, if you develop your screening standards beforehand, you won't have this dilemma on your hands. I haven't run into this myself, but if you decline one applicant for reason X, but accept another applicant even though they also had reason X, someone might make the case it was due to the first applicant being part of a protected class. There is a mega-landlord in my state that publishes their rental criteria, and I like their document for being a good model to work off of when developing your own criteria: https://www.vinebrookhomes.com... Page 3 has a nice table. (I am not at all connected to this company)

Hard pass on this one, do you personally feel comfortable living next door to a murderer, even if so many others won't but at least with this it may be hard for others to find out. Yes this was a long time ago however he has only been out for 2 years. Out of pure curiosity do you have any background of the crime as to why he felt the need to murder someone because I guess that could sway my decision but it has to be pretty severe to be convicted of murder vs. getting it dropped to manslaughter. Of course they fell in love with the property and of course they were on their best behavior because they are having a hard time finding a place to stay. If they are in violation of your lease how comfortable are you going to be addressing it with them knowing that he has killed someone. I understand forgiveness, second chances, and that everyone has to have a place to live however I also believe actions have consequences. Someone else will take them in however it is not a risk I am willing to take. I encourage you to think hard on this, especially since it looks like you live in CA which is a tenant friendly state.

Personally I don't rent to people that are fresh out of prison because it's too easy for them to quickly relapse and have their life fall apart again leaving me to deal with the drama. On the other hand someone that has been out for 10 years and hasn't gotten in any trouble since and has their life together would probably pass.....but then again it may depend on what that person was locked up for (murdering his landlord would probably result in him being disqualified).

Nope nope nope. There are too many qualified tenants out there right now. Anyone I’ve rented to with any kind of violent criminal history has been trouble in one way or another.

Shesssssh!!! I literally had to think about it for a good second and I actually asked my wife as well. Look, at the face of it. Who wants to live next to a murderer? Of course, no one. But as a society, we should try to give people a second chance before tossing them to the sidelines. This person has done their time and possibly trying to do life properly this time. My question is what has this person been doing since he got out 2 years ago? I mean the crime was committed by a 17-year-old 25 years ago and society wants to condemn him for the rest of his life? Yes, they are many tenants out there but it is ok to give second chances and I know a murder conviction is a hard one to overlook. Listen to your gut on this one, as you met this person and hopefully you were able to discern their character a lot more.

@MarieChele Porter perhaps not an answer to your question, but some things to think about or consider as you come to an answer... First, depending on where your rental is the local government may have passed regulations that make ex-felons a protected class that you must rent to if they are otherwise qualified. That would be something you would want to investigate or you may risk bringing a fair housing complaint down on your head. Second, In my area felons are not protected and I choose to not rent to them. My reasons for this is the fact that I don't think *most* people wake up one morning after being normal decent citizens and decide to become a felon. Rather they have a life pattern, personal life decisions, friends they hang out with, etc. that eventually leads to this outcome. While I realize that is a broad generalization and certainly not true in all situations I figure I just can't take the risk. As a property owner and investor I need to manage risk and this is taking on extra risk with no corresponding rate of return to compensate me for that risk. I know this may sound harsh, but that is the reality. You could do it and it might turn out fine. You could also do it and suddenly his old patterns begin to emerge and you have a real problem on your hands. Now, having said all that I am going to contradict what I just said, sort of, I have an acquaintance I know who killed someone in a drunk driving accident many years ago. Not murder, but someone still lost their life. He was an alcoholic and while driving home one night hit a pedestrian and killed them. What made it worse is he just drove away, which is why his crime was upgraded to a felony with prison time. He did 5 years in prison for this. Now that he is out he is a totally different person. He doesn't drink, got married to a wonderful lady, has become a very successful real estate investor (rehabbed and owns 20 properties) and runs a successful contracting business. He is not at all the same person that did that crime years ago, but it still happened and someone is still gone because of his decisions. However if nobody ever gave him a second chance no telling where he would be today. Because some people did he is a different person with a different life. So, now that I have talked out of both sides of my mouth I will have to say this is going to come down to (assuming he is not in a protected class) your personal decision and criteria. You have to decide what risk you are willing to take and if he is telling the truth of how this went down. I can see why it is conflicting to you and wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make.

What you should also consider is not just the crime but the ramifications of it. Being in prison for 25 years will change you, usually for the worse. It’s a rough place. Also, is he going to be able to find employment with this record? Paying rent is number 1 and if he can’t do that what’s the point?

@MarieChele Porter IF the story checks out and he has a job and she does I think you could have an excellent tenant who would stay a long time.

@MarieChele Porter For me it depends on the crime committed and the time that has passed. I would consider Non violent offenders who reestablish good work history.

Renting to a violent felon?

Aigo Pyles

Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2020 · 758 posts · 285 votes

5y

We usually stay out from a violent offender.

0 Reply

Claudio Zocchi

Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 3 votes

5y

But its not like the guy stole a pair of shoes. He killed somebody.

Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

@James Wise

So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

1 Reply

Blaine Atkinson

Real Estate Agent · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2021 · 16 posts · 4 votes

5y

@Claudio Zocchi

I understand your line of thinking but again, it was a long time ago when the individual was a teenager. Most offenders typically come out a much different person than they went in after spending decades in a facility.

I'm not saying the landlord here should 100% rent to this individual. If they aren't comfortable, they aren't comfortable. It's their property.

0 Reply

Eduardo Leal

Member since 2021 · 19 posts · 1 vote

5y

@Colleen F. What is your criteria? I’m a new investor just curious

0 Reply

Julie DeWolfe Arroyo

Realtor · southern Idaho · Member since 2020 · 81 posts · 50 votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter people need a chance to get normal after incarceration. The choice is yours, listen to your instincts, but that's the direction we hope our company moves. Not everyone will be a candidate, but there are so many extenuating circumstances that we dont paint with a broad brush.

Just our perspective.

1 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

@James Wise

So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

Lol....One arrest in 20 years is how you're describing a dude who just did a 25 year stretch for murder? C'mon bruhhh (insert eye roll)

Beyond the obvious, the simple fact that he's less employable than most other people is enough to deny him without a second thought.

3 Reply

Wale LawalBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Houston | Dallas | Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter

I would rent to the tenant with some extra stringent requirements.

1. Get 3 Guarantors to make sure I get my rent on time.

2. Some documents that certified that the tenant behavior to be satisfactory and that the tenant is not a danger to the public.

3. I will also have some landlord specific requirements to keep the tenant in best behavior at all time.

4. I will also make sure the tenant rent is paid directly by the employer from the tenant wages/salary via automatic direct deposit.

Goodluck

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1 Reply

Enrico Angella

Rental Property Investor · Rome Italy · Member since 2020 · 42 posts · 19 votes

5y

I would pass on and try to find another prospective tenant.

These days are already tough enough with all the economic problems due to covid and the extension of the eviction moratorium until September

0 Reply

Jimmy Cantave

Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 154 posts · 38 votes

5y

What if the foot was on the other side?
We all make mistakes and deserve a chance. He might be a good tenant. You don’t know!

0 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jimmy Cantave:

What if the foot was on the other side?
We all make mistakes and deserve a chance. He might be a good tenant. You don’t know!

Using that logic why bother screening tenants at all? Everyone needs a roof over their head afterall.

2 Reply

Tyler Hull

Contractor · Waukesha & Milwaukee County · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 3 votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter

No need when you have so many possible tenants out there.

It’s a business not a charity.

If you want to be charitable then give to the church or something less dangerous.

-Best of luck

2 Reply

Judy Parker

Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes

5y

Section 8, bad credit, spent 25 years incarcerated AND a murder conviction? Walk away from these risky applicants. Surely there must be better-qualified applicants in your market?

2 Reply

Nicholas Rickman

Contractor · Gig Harbor, WA · Member since 2020 · 28 posts · 14 votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter

Take it from someone who just spent the last nine years in prison. No record prior,buisiness owner, and all arround regular guy. A lot of the men I met in prison, I would guess about thirty percent are just regular people who for one reason or another find themselves in sercumstances that are not that easy to navigate. In simpler terms Sh#t happens.

The facts are this resitivism rates for people who commit murder are super low, as well as people who spend more than ten years incarcerated. Like less then 10 %. Also people in prison are 100 times cleaner than people outside of prison. When you live in basically a closet with another grown man you respect the small space you have. I would trust that this man will take good care of your property. I would actually think twice if there were drug or theft charges.

My personal opinion is you as a landlord should be able to deny anyone at anytime.

Unfortunately for you it would appear you live on California which is an overtly liberal state. So I think there is a good chance that you are dealing with a protected class situation. You may not be able to turn them down at this point if they meet the financial criteria. Ironically enough California is also one of the most unfriendly state as far as lidigation goes. So there may be some liability.

You may want to read the book Start Your Own Corperation by Garret Sutton. If hold your property in a partnership between an LLC and a Trust. Then you can protect your protect your other properties. Navada/Wyoming corp. Non liberal states.

3 Reply

Jacob Pereira

Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 636 posts · 486 votes

5y

I actually did something very similar once. He was a former marine, just like me, and he just got a giant VA settlement. He literally paid for the full year of rent in advance, because I originally told him I couldn't rent to him because of the murder conviction. At that point I figured I didn't have much to lose (I also have a $2M umbrella policy, which I recommend to every mid-size landlord). I should also mention he was in his mid-sixties and walked with a cane

He ended up going back to jail about 8 months into his lease for some kind of drug issue while on parole. While I couldn't rent the property out to a new tenant because it was technically still his, I had the rent and it gave me plenty of time for a make ready and to show new tenants. I even visited him in prison and got his permission to have his sister take his stuff a few weeks early.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. Landlording is an interesting profession.

3 Reply

Karl Schmidt

Investor · UT · Member since 2020 · 35 posts · 16 votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter he is a manipulating individual. He has found benefit in being real nice and almost “the perfect gentleman”.

Avoid like the plague. Plus any harm he does in the future may come back in a lawsuit against you. Just avoid. Make it part of your contract.

0 Reply

Billy Smith

Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 719 posts · 313 votes

5y

Having a 3-party screening company gives you layers of protection. They make the decisions based on simple metrics.

What I see is folks who own rentals that are leaving on the edge forgot their business model get caught with your .... down.

So, the charging each adult 30 dollars cash before you do any back ground, Is what you must do over over!

I always prescreen over the phone to save time/money and just hassle factor for all involved.

3 Reply

Andrew FreedBusiness Member

Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter I would recommend not renting to this individual for many of the reasons listed above. If this will be a house hack, would you want to live next to a convicted killer? Additionally, this is a business and if you want long term success, you need to treat it as such. Why rent to this individual and open yourself up to this liability? It sounds like you are taking all of the risk with minimal rewards. Just my thoughts. Best of luck!

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David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @MarieChele Porter:

@Adam Martin

The specifics are the thing... So his sister was killed by her boyfriend.. Him and his best friend went to beat the guy up... Best friend pulled the trigger but they were both charged with the crime for being involved... I mean it's not like he was a gang banger just in foolishness... I guess that's the thing and I understand what you're saying...

Strictly my opinion here ...

People who take the law into their own hands like that are trouble.

My $0.02 ...

0 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jacob Pereira:

I actually did something very similar once. He was a former marine, just like me, and he just got a giant VA settlement. He literally paid for the full year of rent in advance, because I originally told him I couldn't rent to him because of the murder conviction. At that point I figured I didn't have much to lose (I also have a $2M umbrella policy, which I recommend to every mid-size landlord). I should also mention he was in his mid-sixties and walked with a cane

He ended up going back to jail about 8 months into his lease for some kind of drug issue while on parole. While I couldn't rent the property out to a new tenant because it was technically still his, I had the rent and it gave me plenty of time for a make ready and to show new tenants. I even visited him in prison and got his permission to have his sister take his stuff a few weeks early.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. Landlording is an interesting profession.

You visited your tenant in prison? Folks you are killin me (pun intended) with this thread. Your job as a landlord is to run your business in the most profitable way. That's it. You are not here to give everyone a house. You are not here to give everyone a 2nd chance. You are here to lease your house to the tenant that poses the least likely statistical risk of costing you money. You are not the tenant's friend, buddy, advocate, social worker etc....You should not be getting involved in their lives, seeing them socially or visiting them in prison lol. SOCIAL DISTANCE FOLKS! As landlords we were supposed to be social distancing way before it was cool!

5 Reply

Steve RozenbergPro Member

Specialist · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter I have not read all the other comments on this post but I'm assuming I am probably saying something that is very similar to what they said

After owning a company that managed over a thousand properties I would tell you you could be making a very very big mistake

This is for multiple reasons the first reason is that if you have your written qualifications policies and procedures that says no felons and you change and rent to a felon you are violating your own procedure and possibly discriminating against other felons. Which now means you are violating a discriminatory act which is a federal offense and a fair housing violation possibly

Next is if you tell me that you don't have a policy and procedure and qualifications written down that you are not properly disclosing to potential applicants I would say that's another problem that will get you in trouble also California is very very strict and I know there are some areas such as in Oakland where you're not even legally allowed to do a criminal background check on potential applicants now.

My suggestion is to create a policy stick to it and do not deviate from it if the person does not fit your qualifications you do not rent to them it's very simple

I also suggest that anyone over the age of 18 years old needs to not only be on the lease agreement but needs to have a criminal background check done on them because if they go and commit a crime in the neighborhood and it comes back that you did not do a criminal background check you could be liable for anything that they do because you let the person live in the property in to not do the proper screening

So the short answer is no do not rent to them if that's what your policy says and if it does not then I would create a policy and procedure that you stick to and adhere too

3 Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

5y

@MarieChele Porter I agree with @Nathan Gesner that becoming instant friends with them is even more concerning than the murder conviction. Never trust your "gut feeling". The best con artists in the world will seem like your best friend. I have rented to tenants who seemed like jerks and they were amazing tenants. My point is follow the facts, not your personal emotions. Facts are salary, credit report, previous landlord references, criminal history, etc. Pretend like you never met them and you were evaluating this application without any personal contact. Odds are good you would reject it.

I am a really good read of people and I have found the people who appear the nicest are often trying to overcompensate. The best way to find out true character of a person is deny their application. Watch a nice person turn foul mouthed and angry instantly. That is just how it is.

On a personal (emotional) level, his story bothers me. Assuming his story is proven true, that the person murdered killed his sister and he didn't pull the trigger, this is very sad. Getting 25 years in that situation is a gross miscarriage of justice and I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is a racial minority. When you are 17 years old, you don't think about consequences. The sad thing is the 25 years in prison did more damage to this guy than the murder conviction. Prison doesn't focus on rehabilitation in America, it is about punishment. That means he came out scarred and only being out 2 years, it is hard to know if he will make it on the outside long term. The sad reality is that he is high risk. You can talk to his parole officer. You can research his case and look at court transcripts. Maybe you can even see his parole hearing records and see what kind of inmate he was. That is a lot of work, but if you are seriously considering renting to him, you MUST dig in deep. If any details of what he says don't check out, instantly deny. The only thing worse than a felon is a lying felon.

I respect your kind heart, just be careful to not let your emotions make this decision. It could have serious affects on you and your family.

3 Reply

Ola Dantis

Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@MarieChele Porter I agree with @Nathan Gesner that becoming instant friends with them is even more concerning than the murder conviction. Never trust your "gut feeling". The best con artists in the world will seem like your best friend. I have rented to tenants who seemed like jerks and they were amazing tenants. My point is follow the facts, not your personal emotions. Facts are salary, credit report, previous landlord references, criminal history, etc. Pretend like you never met them and you were evaluating this application without any personal contact. Odds are good you would reject it.

I am a really good read of people and I have found the people who appear the nicest are often trying to overcompensate. The best to find out true character of a person is deny their application. Watch a nice person turn foul mouthed and angry instantly. That is just how it is.

On a personal (emotional) level, his story bothers me. Assuming his story is proven true, that the person murdered killed his sister and he didn't pull the trigger, this is very sad. Getting 25 years in that situation is a gross miscarriage of justice and I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is a racial minority. When you are 17 years old, you don't think about consequences. The sad thing is the 25 years in prison did more damage to this guy than the murder conviction. Prison doesn't focus on rehabilitation in America, it is about punishment. That means he came out scared and only being out 2 years, it is hard to know if he will make it on the outside long term. The sad reality is that he is high risk. You can talk to his parole officer. You can research his case and look at court transcripts. Maybe you can even see his parole hearing records and see what kind of inmate he was. That is a lot of work, but if you are seriously considering renting to him, you MUST dig in deep. If any details of what he says to you don't check out, instantly deny. The only worse than a felon is a lying felon.

I respect your kind heart, just be careful to not let your emotions make this decision. It could have serious affects on you and your family.

Wow! I couldn't agree more!

1 Reply

MarieChele PorterPro Member

OP

San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 193 posts · 98 votes

5y

@Rob Gillespie

Hi Rob! I'm re-reading some of the comments and realized it was you! Lol hope all is well!

0 Reply

Preston Donahue

Real Estate Agent · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 42 posts · 23 votes

5y

@MarieChele I would say use your best judgement. There is no right or wrong answers because everyone is different. It happened 27 years ago. If he's out on parole, contact his parole officer and ask him questions.

0 Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Jacob Pereira:

I actually did something very similar once. He was a former marine, just like me, and he just got a giant VA settlement. He literally paid for the full year of rent in advance, because I originally told him I couldn't rent to him because of the murder conviction. At that point I figured I didn't have much to lose (I also have a $2M umbrella policy, which I recommend to every mid-size landlord). I should also mention he was in his mid-sixties and walked with a cane

He ended up going back to jail about 8 months into his lease for some kind of drug issue while on parole. While I couldn't rent the property out to a new tenant because it was technically still his, I had the rent and it gave me plenty of time for a make ready and to show new tenants. I even visited him in prison and got his permission to have his sister take his stuff a few weeks early.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. Landlording is an interesting profession.

You visited your tenant in prison? Folks you are killin me (pun intended) with this thread. Your job as a landlord is to run your business in the most profitable way. That's it. You are not here to give everyone a house. You are not here to give everyone a 2nd chance. You are here to lease your house to the tenant that poses the least likely statistical risk of costing you money. You are not the tenant's friend, buddy, advocate, social worker etc....You should not be getting involved in their lives, seeing them socially or visiting them in prison lol. SOCIAL DISTANCE FOLKS! As landlords we were supposed to be social distancing way before it was cool!

This is next level ridiculous. I once bailed a tenant out of jail. It was very early in my land lording career and I was young and naïve. The tenant was arrested for unpaid parking tickets. She was a single mother with three children at home. She had just paid rent that day. Her minor daughter called me and asked me to give back rent to pay bail. I picked up the daughter and went to jail to bail her out. I gave her and her daughter a ride home. A year later this tenant moved out in the middle of the night, leaving the property trashed and owing me money.

People will use you and screw you. That is hard lesson to learn in life, but a valuable one. I don't regret helping her, but I would never do something similar again. I am not sharing this to myself look like an idiot, but rather to reinforce your statement. Landlords need to social and emotionally distance...

1 Reply

Renting to a violent felon?

Renting to a violent felon?

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