Renting to a violent felon?

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Renting to a violent felon?

MarieChele PorterPro Member
San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 193 posts · 98 votes

Hey y'all,

I know this post is going to seem so rookie to a lot of you but here we go I need your help... I had a potential tenant come by last week (alone) and fell in love with the property... It's not rented yet and she wanted to come by again with her husband and 2 children, which they did tonight... They were pretty much instant friends with me, my mom, and niece and applied before even leaving my house... 

Well low risk credit scores, no evictions, but wait spouse has a murder conviction?!!!... Oh boy... So it was explained to me what happened by the wife he was 17 and went to jail for 25 years and got out 2 years ago...

I'm not a type of person that won't give someone a shot... He left the state it happened when he got out started a new life has a job for nearly a year and is ready to be done with that part of his life...

My question is what type of liability could this open me up to if any? I read that in some states landlords have been sued for knowing about a violent past and something happening at the unit... This is a 2 unit current house hack but I won't be here forever... Am I opening myself up to potential liability issues in the future? Or is it okay to rent to someone that is done with their past and just wants to move on???? 

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Account Closed
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
5y

I will flip it around a little bit, if you develop your screening standards beforehand, you won't have this dilemma on your hands.  I haven't run into this myself, but if you decline one applicant for reason X, but accept another applicant even though they also had reason X, someone might make the case it was due to the first applicant being part of a protected class. 

There is a mega-landlord in my state that publishes their rental criteria, and I like their document for being a good model to work off of when developing your own criteria:    https://www.vinebrookhomes.com...     Page 3 has a nice table.  (I am not at all connected to this company) 

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  • Hanif Ahmad
    Investor · South Eastern PA · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    5y

    @Ali Boone great response. 👍🏾

    1Reply
  • Jonathan R McLaughlin
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter both in the 500s is pretty rough

    0Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    You can talk to his parole officer. You can research his case and look at court transcripts. Maybe you can even see his parole hearing records and see what kind of inmate he was. That is a lot of work, but if you are seriously considering renting to him, you MUST dig in deep. If any details of what he says don't check out, instantly deny. The only thing worse than a felon is a lying felon.



    Playing Devil's advocate:

    How do you know he didn't pull the trigger? How do you know it's a miscarriage of justice? Maybe the prosecutor, judge, and jury were also minorities and they found this individual guilty and sentenced him to 25 years because that's what he deserved? 

    My main point in asking these questions is that most Landlords are not qualified - nor do they have the time - to investigate someone's background and make this kind of judgment call. We have to trust the judicial system to carry out justice. When someone is sentenced to 25 years in prison, there are literally dozens of people involved in that process and they usually get it right. Yes, there are cases with trumped up charges, falsified evidence, or sentences that don't fit the crime. There are also dangerous criminals walking the streets because our justice system sets them free without appropriate justice. It goes both ways but the vast majority of cases are fair and it's not our job to question every sentencing to determine if the police, prosecutors, defenders, judge, jury, and prison system did their job correctly.

    My policy is that I will not rent to violent felons. There are always exceptions but they should clearly demonstrate a low-risk situation and the onus is on the applicant to prove their case; it is not my job to investigate.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews
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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    You can talk to his parole officer. You can research his case and look at court transcripts. Maybe you can even see his parole hearing records and see what kind of inmate he was. That is a lot of work, but if you are seriously considering renting to him, you MUST dig in deep. If any details of what he says don't check out, instantly deny. The only thing worse than a felon is a lying felon.



    Playing Devil's advocate:

    How do you know he didn't pull the trigger? How do you know it's a miscarriage of justice? Maybe the prosecutor, judge, and jury were also minorities and they found this individual guilty and sentenced him to 25 years because that's what he deserved? 

    My main point in asking these questions is that most Landlords are not qualified - nor do they have the time - to investigate someone's background and make this kind of judgment call. We have to trust the judicial system to carry out justice. When someone is sentenced to 25 years in prison, there are literally dozens of people involved in that process and they usually get it right. Yes, there are cases with trumped up charges, falsified evidence, or sentences that don't fit the crime. There are also dangerous criminals walking the streets because our justice system sets them free without appropriate justice. It goes both ways but the vast majority of cases are fair and it's not our job to question every sentencing to determine if the police, prosecutors, defenders, judge, jury, and prison system did their job correctly.

    My policy is that I will not rent to violent felons. There are always exceptions but they should clearly demonstrate a low-risk situation and the onus is on the applicant to prove their case; it is not my job to investigate.

     I fully agree, that is why I said if his story is true. We all know that when dealing with felons, you get half truths at best. My policy is to pass on violent felons too.

    0Reply
  • Lincoln Farrell
    Contractor · Katy Tx · Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    @Dennis Wayne so true 😂😂😂

    0Reply
  • Chinyere Orie
    Real Estate Agent · Baltimore Maryland · Member since 2019 · 98 posts · 74 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Dennis Burian:

    @MarieChele Porter

    The family clearly made a good impression or you wouldn’t be here. We have some experience with this as within our longest term tenant family, the husband was convicted of manslaughter in his youth and did his time. Wife with 3 kiddos stuck by him while he was away which was a big factor in their favor. I don’t remember his sentence but it wasn’t trivial, several years.

    Your question regards your liability but if they’re really trying to fly right and not gaming you, that won’t be an issue. At the end of the day, your screening criteria are much the same as any other applicant. Verify the story your being given as best you can. I’d pay attention to the wife as much as the husband because her past performance is the best predictor of the future that you have. If they are new to the current state of residence, I’d dig into public records in previous states best you can. If it costs a couple bucks, you can add it to their app fee.

    Two things in favor of the candidate, he already has a job (I assume they qualify financially, my guy couldn’t find work for years because of the conviction). Second, assuming they pass and you rent to them, they’ll likely be model tenants because they’ll know their choices are limited if they screw it up: an ex-con with an eviction would be poison to most landlords.

    Are we still having fun?

    Dennis Burian

    Rent OKC Metro, LLC

    PS. The tenant I referred to above has been with us 14 years.

    I agree with this 100%.  Some people have a clean background and cause so much trouble as a tenant.  He seems to be trying to do right (as he's already employed) and they've been open and honest with his background.  If his reference check out, I don't see his background as an automatic disqualification.  

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  • Matt Greer
    Real Estate Agent · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 231 posts · 169 votes
    5y

    That's rough. If you decide on a case by case situation you open yourself to a lawsuit. If you accept this guy but not another who committed the same crime. Circumstances of the crime committed be totally different but on paper they're the same. So this guy was defending his sister and you could be totally cool with him, but now you have to accept convicted murderers and not all are the same (plus... it's murder). Is that something you want to open yourself to?

    0Reply
  • Troy Weaver
    Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 28 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter saying that he didn't actually murder anyone I'd give them a chance.

    Everyone deserves a second chance.

    Think about you'd want to see someone about murdering your sister to. If he went over there to kick the guy's *** then his intention was to never murder the man if his friend did it that's means he didn't. He did the time anyway and is now trying to regain a life in society. You have the right to rent to who you want but I think this would work out and would feel good helping someone getting their life back.

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  • Troy Weaver
    Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 28 votes
    5y

    @James Wise that's great advice. What if you were denied everything because of something I'm sure you did in your past.

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  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Troy Weaver:

    @James Wise that's great advice. What if you were denied everything because of something I'm sure you did in your past.

    I assume you are asking me this because you think this perspective tenant is getting a raw deal? 

    • Whether or not this perspective tenant is getting a raw deal is irrelevant. 
    • Whether his life is hard or not is irrelevant. 
    • Whether or not you feel like the odds are stacked against him is irrelevant. 
    • Whether or not you think the landlord is being mean or unfair is irrelevant. 

    The landlord's job is to operate their business in the most profitable way, not worry about every perspective person who approaches them looking for a house. In short, the perspective tenant's problems are his problems, not the landlord's problems. The landlord should not concern himself with this guy's problems.

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Troy Weaver:

    @MarieChele Porter saying that he didn't actually murder anyone I'd give them a chance.

    Everyone deserves a second chance.

    Think about you'd want to see someone about murdering your sister to. If he went over there to kick the guy's *** then his intention was to never murder the man if his friend did it that's means he didn't. He did the time anyway and is now trying to regain a life in society. You have the right to rent to who you want but I think this would work out and would feel good helping someone getting their life back.

     Giving him a chance is not a business decision. It's charity. So you don't need to phrase it like you would give him a chance if it were you in the OP's situation. You are you now and you can absolutely give this man charity. Nobody is stopping you from contacting the OP and asking her how you can give this man charity. So the real question is why haven't you already done so? If you "would do it" why aren't you "doing it now?"

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  • Michele V.
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 26 votes
    5y

    Love these answers.  For me, the deal breakers are the recency of the offense and the fact that he's living in the same house with you (although you should be just as concerned about others' safety).  

    I will say this: as far as the underlying circumstances are concerned, I wouldn't take the wife's word for it.  The female significant other ALWAYS does a great job putting a spin on the circumstances that got their husband in trouble long before they even met.  I sense that you are struggling turning down people with whom you feel connected, and you might be inclined to let them move in despite the concerns.  I get it (I sound like I don't have a conscience, but I do).  If I'm right about that, I would encourage you to reach out to the jurisdiction where the offense took place.  He was 17 at the time, but was treated like an adult.  So you should be able to reach out to the clerk's office or the relevant police department's records section and get your hands on a report or factual summary describing all that took place.  If the person who he is said to have murdered killed his sister (I think that's what the wife said) and he was 17 years old at the time, I have to say that I SERIOUSLY doubt that he would have been sentenced to all that jail time.  I know it varies depending on a number of factors (I am a career prosecutor (way older than I look)).  But still.  These things are red flags in the wife's story that cause me some concern.  Do not move that family into your property just b/c they seemed nice and connected well with you when they came over.  I'm sure you've asked your friends and they all think your nuts for even considering them in the first place, which is why you're asking your BP family.  We all do that and I totally understand.  But PLEASE take the time to check into the back-story, b/c something is not adding up for me.  

    1Reply
  • Lance Jorgenson
    Investor · 84123 · Member since 2020 · 50 posts · 27 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter One thing I would be worried about is how other tenants in your building will feel about living next to a Felon. I feel it would be hard to keep good tenants and also might be hard to get people to rent knowing that a felon is in the bldg. I would being welling to try it out if it was a SFH and you got maybe a higher deposit then normal and kept everything in the wives name. It is defiantly a very tricky situation

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y

    Am I the only one who notices the extreme irony here?

    All the "do gooder, never invested" before folks who are all about "giving him a chance" are the same folks who are going to come on these forums crying for hours on emd about their horrible property manger when they experience their 1st eviction.

    1Reply
  • Daniel SmythPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2019 · 471 posts · 342 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter

    If the government let the Felon out of jail, on Proke, or at the end of his punishment, he is fine with any of my properties.

    I would expect a Felon, or an Ex-convict, might have a vested interest in doing better than many you might find with a good story and credit rating.

    Violence happens. You as a landlord should already have liability insurance for people doing stupid things and saying you were at fault.

    As long as the tenant follows the lease, what more would you ask for?

    The tenant that comes right up and declares his previous issues with the law may very well be a tenant of choice in some areas.

    Your legal assistant should be able to help you construct a lease to have contingencies as to what would happen with illegal behavior on the property. But, those contingencies should be in all of your leases. Careful as you expect the worst of people who have been caught and punished, while you feel everyone not caught and punished is a model citizen!

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  • Mary M.
    Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    I would be sure to check with my attorney before blanket denying anyone with criminal history.....  

    "Denying Rentals Over Criminal Records

    Your policy for using criminal record information must be applied consistently and based on sound business reasons. For example, simply having a zero-tolerance policy and denying all applicants who have any type of criminal record is not a sound business reason -- that is, criminal record information alone does not indicate whether the applicant will make a good tenant. Because your rejection of all applicants with criminal records may result in disparate impact discrimination against certain protected groups, your policy may result in a violation of fair housing laws. Your criteria for rejecting applicants based on criminal records should be narrowly focused -- for example, limiting rejections to applicants with criminal records showing convictions for serious violent felonies."

    https://pocketsense.com/can-de...

    1Reply
  • Adam Martin
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    I have been thinking a lot of this thread and honestly feel pretty good on what I am reading on both fronts.  I operate on B+ so I am sheltered from a lot of this, I also don't work with section 8 but that is not everyone's niche.  I stand by my hard no and there is nothing that will change that, I avoid risk and situations I feel uncomfortable with and this ranks high up there.  That said I always wonder what happens to these people, they have to live somewhere.  In my mind they mostly snuck in as unapproved occupants however this thread has opened my eyes to show others are much more forgiving than I am.  I am honestly happy to hear this as I worry for these people and honestly expected this whole thread to be people echoing my opinion but glad to hear people are willing to give chances even if its not one I am comfortable with.  For those supporting 2nd chances this could be a wonderful niche.  As this post states these people are going to have trouble finding housing and this is a long term tenant as long as they hold their end of the bargain.  Are any of you marketing yourself to these type of tenants that need a second chance and if so how.  For those supporting this acceptance but not renting to felons have you had the opportunity before and what held you back.  For those of you have took the chance I am equally interested to hear how you were have succeeded as well as how you were burnt.  I am also curious per my past post on what the difference is on the fact the poster found this, it was not given.  Give me a story before I find it and I will consider it, if I find it and have to question I am already at worst case scenario on both the scenario and the fact I see you as trying to pull a fast one. 

    1Reply
  • Jacob Pereira
    Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 636 posts · 486 votes
    5y

    @James Wise, I think you may have missed a key aspect of my comment. Since my tenant had paid the whole year in advance I had no right to remove his things without his say-so, which was the only reason I was there. Even if he had broken the lease I would've still had to have gone through the eviction process to remove his possessions without his permission. It was much quicker, easier, and cheaper to ask for his permission face to face than try to do it through the courts. Believe it or not, the respectful way of doing things is often also the best business practice, even when the individual you're working with isn't necessarily the best guy.

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  • Howard HerringtonPro Member
    Realtor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 159 posts · 75 votes
    5y

    Hello @MarieChele Porter, given the nature of the discussion I feel that there will be bias on both sides of the coin with this.  At the end of the day, I think it is totally up to you as the owner as the course of action you want to take.  Society says if someone has been incarcerated, especially for murder, then they are no good and have no chance of redemption however I have personally seen that this is not always the case so I would say as some others have mentioned to follow your heart and head and ultimately at the end of the day you will make the decision that was best for you.

    0Reply
  • Jack Wyatt
    New to Real Estate · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    @MarieChele Porter I own a rooming house in Memphis Tennessee that helps individuals trying to reestablish their lives. I have had nothing but a good experience so far. My situation is a little different though. One, I have experience working with this population. Two, these guys pay by the week and have no contracts so if they mess up I just put them out. I don’t know if there’s someway you can admin your contract to say any sign of trouble or delinquent payments (because of your past) you have to go. Also, like other have said check plenty of references and with his employer. My guys always pay on time because they know they don’t have many other options. As you can see from this thread most people are not very friendly towards this population. 10 years ago I was homeless living on the streets and ended up in jail myself. Today I am in charge of the alcohol and drug prevention efforts of Memphis Tennessee, I’m a researcher for Columbia University for the opioid crisis, and I am now a real estate investor. I received 2 degrees from the University of Memphis and was the commencement speaker for my graduation. People do change and deserve a second chance. After everything I have read from you...I’d say give him a try. Feel free to call me if you want to talk more about the situation. The more details I know the more I could help you feel out the situation. (901)417-1982

    2Reply
  • Cory Thorbeck
    Member since 2021 · 20 posts · 2 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

    @James Wise

    So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

    I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

    If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

     Lol....One arrest in 20 years is how you're describing a dude who just did a 25 year stretch for murder? C'mon bruhhh (insert eye roll)

    Beyond the obvious, the simple fact that he's less employable than most other people is enough to deny him without a second thought.

    Denying an individual fair housing because you assume that "he's is less employable than most..." is wrong. No matter the applicant, proof of income and the reliability of income should be the factor. Not the less than factual stereotypical assumption based on a statistic that not every person in a particular demographic share with one another. Put yourself in their shoes. What if he made more than the average person and a stable job or if he had a trust fund? You never know. That thought process could come back to bite.

    0Reply
  • Cory Thorbeck
    Member since 2021 · 20 posts · 2 votes
    5y

    If you've ever struck anyone first, you are not a violent person.
    Unless you get caught--then your violent...

    Ever been in a fight. Bet you have.

    ("you" is nobody in particular)

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  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Cory Thorbeck:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

    @James Wise

    So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

    I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

    If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

     Lol....One arrest in 20 years is how you're describing a dude who just did a 25 year stretch for murder? C'mon bruhhh (insert eye roll)

    Beyond the obvious, the simple fact that he's less employable than most other people is enough to deny him without a second thought.

    Denying an individual fair housing because you assume that "he's is less employable than most..." is wrong. No matter the applicant, proof of income and the reliability of income should be the factor. Not the less than factual stereotypical assumption based on a statistic that not every person in a particular demographic share with one another. Put yourself in their shoes. What if he made more than the average person and a stable job or if he had a trust fund? You never know. That thought process could come back to bite.

    Unlike most on these forums I speak from real world experience. Not from blog posts I've read.

    My company runs a $75 Million portfolio. We approve and or demy 1,000's of applications annually. I welcome a fair housing complaint from someone over this as our i's are dotted and t's crossed.

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  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    My criteria is "no felony convictions".... PERIOD... 

    You can rationalize yourself out of smart decision very easily...... when it comes to business DON"T rationalize changing your policy. Bad business... that's making emotional decision, not business decisions

    And NO WAY would I take the word of ANY of these people about what really happened...... and I'm not in the detective business..... I've got better things to do than vet out their story by looking up criminal proceedings, contact parole officers etc etc etc.... they could be telling their version of the truth, but I'm not wasting my time trying to find out if they are full of sh*t or not......that is way beyond the normal effort of screening..... not worth my time

    As stated HUGE red flag when the applicants are absolutely over the top trying to make friends with you.... there is a BIG difference between a applicant that is stating "I'm going to be honest and upfront with you" and one that is bubbling over with trying to make an emotional connection with you and your entire family..... BIG RED FLAG of overcompensation.....

    1Reply
  • Cory Thorbeck
    Member since 2021 · 20 posts · 2 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Cory Thorbeck:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Blaine Atkinson:

    @James Wise

    So, in your opinion, one arrest 20 years ago equates to a poor tenant? I agree that someone with repeated behavior it's definitely of the table.

    I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand your standpoint. I work with people after release very frequently and we stay in touch with them for long periods of time.

    If you could, please elaborate on your thoughts.

     Lol....One arrest in 20 years is how you're describing a dude who just did a 25 year stretch for murder? C'mon bruhhh (insert eye roll)

    Beyond the obvious, the simple fact that he's less employable than most other people is enough to deny him without a second thought.

    Denying an individual fair housing because you assume that "he's is less employable than most..." is wrong. No matter the applicant, proof of income and the reliability of income should be the factor. Not the less than factual stereotypical assumption based on a statistic that not every person in a particular demographic share with one another. Put yourself in their shoes. What if he made more than the average person and a stable job or if he had a trust fund? You never know. That thought process could come back to bite.

    Unlike most on these forums I speak from real world experience. Not from blog posts I've read.

    My company runs a $75 Million portfolio. We approve and or demy 1,000's of applications annually. I welcome a fair housing complaint from someone over this as our i's are dotted and t's crossed.

    What a boring rebuttal that was lol sorry but that $75 million isn't reflecting so well. I've navigated billions of dollars worth of ships. Doesn't change anything in this this instance...

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