Denver hopes to require Landlords to obtain a license and register their rentals. They started doing this in 2019 with vacation homes and now want to do it for all rentals. Why? It's under the guise of protecting the public, but that's like requiring every adult to take a breathalyzer before getting into a car because 5% of the population may be drunk. https://www.9news.com/article/... Notice there will be an administrative fee and an inspection every four years. That means more City employees to administer the program, shuffle the papers, inspect the properties, enforce the rules, collect the fines ($1,000 per day for a violation), etc. Taxes will go up. Imagine a landlord with 100 rentals. Each rental would have to be registered and inspected once every four years. That will take a minimum of one hour of time per rental, adding 100 hours to that Landlord's workload every four years. Easy for a Landlord with 1-2 rentals but a larger Landlord or Property Manager will need to hire additional staff. Registration fees for the owner. The City will have to raise taxes to cover the administrative costs of the program. Large Landlords and Property Managers will have to hire more staff. This will all result in costs going up, which will be passed on to the end user.

I used the quote against your allowing on the infringing of everyone driving to catch a very tiny amount drunk drivers. How about blood tests for everyone every 4 years to catch drug users? Swimming tests for everyone who owns a pool? After all, what's everyone giving up personal freedoms and privacy in exchange for a very tiny percentage of people being saved? As for every 4 years, what about every 3 years? Every 2 years? Annually? Monthly? At what point does government infringement get to be too much for you?

Does your City require Landlords to register rentals?

Greg ScottPro Member

Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes

5y

I no longer own single family properties but when I did, about half of them were in cities that had some sort of inspection. Your assessment is correct that it appears mostly to be a revenue / power grab by the cities. It is easy for them to pick on property owners, because unless you happen to live in that city, you don't vote in that city. Also, you are more likely to protest taxes than the owner-occupant.

You should be aware that there was a case tried in Cincinnati about 4 years ago that successfully challenged the single family rental property inspections. They used an argument similar to yours and won. Unfortunately, the ruling had a very narrow scope regarding a particular way the city violated the constitution that is not broadly applicable. Hopefully, more challenges will set a better precedent.

I could not find reference to that case but found this that outlined the same arguments: https://pacificlegal.org/traut...

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Peter MckernanBusiness Member

Residential Real Estate Agent · Irvine, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner yeah, this is tough for the owners even with 1-2 rentals due to those people most likely working full time jobs now needing to juggle being at the house to get the inspections done (both the professional landlord and the weekend warrior landlord loses).

The cities need to always figure out how to increase their income due to them not selling a product or service to people like a business does. The best way to do that is put more requirements into place and charge for them. An example is permit fees, they have never stayed the same price over the past 40-50 years, each year they go up in price to get the permits done for the city and these fees will always go up. Landlords and homeowners need to adapt and continue to navigate the market and the cities (states) while the cities (states) put more regulations out.

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Julie Hartman

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 667 posts · 587 votes

5y

Denver has been moving progressively toward being a landlord unfriendly city and this is yet another example of that. Most of what they think they are trying to achieve with this is already covered under the recently revised habitability laws anyway. It's obviously a shameless money grab and government expansion move. Luckily, this does not extend to every county in the metro area but I am sure given enough time it will.

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Ray Johnson

Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 545 posts · 614 votes

5y

Hello @Nathan Gesner I experience this in all of the cities that I have rentals in. In Washington, DC I recently had the District conduct an inspection virtually with the tenant to inspect the property due to COVID.

DC also told me I needed to have a license for each rental property that I have in the District which has to be renewed annually of course, I get the 2 year licenses to cut down on the filing, but they get my money like clockwork.

I'm sure I could probably rent the properties without a license illegally if i tried but I play by the rules.

All of the cities say it's to protect the quality of the rentals for the tenants.

They clearly use it as a way to collect fees, I've been fined for some "fine print" violations. In one property I got fined because the carbon monoxide detector was 8 inches too far from bedroom #2, I've been fined because the location of the fire extinguisher under the kitchen sink wasn't marked to say where it was.

There is no way to get out of these fines, they do allow you to request a reduction in the fine after mitigation of the issue, and a reasonable justification as to why you had the violation.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member

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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

5y

Yes. The only people who should be concerned are slumlords who keep their properties in uninhabitable conditions. I go in and out of homes constantly that have unregistered rentals, and many of them are absolutely terrible the conditions slumlords allow their properties to be in. Many of them should be in jail instead of allowed to own property.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

Yes. The only people who should be concerned are slumlords who keep their properties in uninhabitable conditions. I go in and out of homes constantly that have unregistered rentals, and many of them are absolutely terrible the conditions slumlords allow their properties to be in. Many of them should be in jail instead of allowed to own property.

I see them in my city, too. But what percent of all rentals are slums? I bet dollars to donuts it's less than 10% and probably closer to 5%. So the government wants to create an administrative monstrosity to deal with the few? And do you really believe those slumlords are going to register and start complying with new regulations when they don't even care about the current ones? You'll either drive them deeper underground or they'll spook, the property will be converted to something decent, and then we'll have more homeless and people on government subsidies.

It will be as successful as the war on drugs, war on poverty, and war on homelessness.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member

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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

Yes. The only people who should be concerned are slumlords who keep their properties in uninhabitable conditions. I go in and out of homes constantly that have unregistered rentals, and many of them are absolutely terrible the conditions slumlords allow their properties to be in. Many of them should be in jail instead of allowed to own property.

I see them in my city, too. But what percent of all rentals are slums? I bet dollars to donuts it's less than 10% and probably closer to 5%. So the government wants to create an administrative monstrosity to deal with the few? And do you really believe those slumlords are going to register and start complying with new regulations when they don't even care about the current ones? You'll either drive them deeper underground or they'll spook, the property will be converted to something decent, and then we'll have more homeless and people on government subsidies.

It will be as successful as the war on drugs, war on poverty, and war on homelessness.

Nearly every major city in America has rental licenses, and its absolutely zero problem. You are imagining problems that simply don't exist based on your fear of government. Landlords wont bear the brunt of the costs, tenants do.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

You're supporting my position.

"I go in and out of homes constantly that have unregistered rentals, and many of them are absolutely terrible the conditions slumlords allow their properties to be in."

How is this possible when DC created a solution? LOL! They didn't solve anything. They created new hoops and fees that impact the people already doing the right thing. The bad actors ignore the new laws and little changes. I would love to see evidence that says otherwise.

Zero problems? More like zero solutions.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member

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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

You're supporting my position.

"I go in and out of homes constantly that have unregistered rentals, and many of them are absolutely terrible the conditions slumlords allow their properties to be in."

How is this possible when DC created a solution? LOL! They didn't solve anything. They created new hoops and fees that impact the people already doing the right thing. The bad actors ignore the new laws and little changes. I would love to see evidence that says otherwise.

Zero problems? More like zero solutions.

Now inspectors can go in and inspect these when they get reported, which they do. I report them and get inspectors into them.

Your solution is that since its hard to enforce the law we shouldnt try to enforce housing codes is to me the argument that a slumlord would make since they dont want inspectors in their properties.

We can clearly see in cities like NY for instance that the number of people who have died in fires dropped dramatically when rental inspections and modern housing codes were put into place plummeted.

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James CarlsonBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

I think we too often see government changes through the narrow lens of our personal experience as landlords or real estate investors as opposed to the help it can provide others who aren't in that position of power. I'm sure the number of bad actors in this space is not large, but for those that are affected, a horrible living situation is a destabilizing force that can hamper your ability to get ahead.

I've certainly worked my butt off for our investment properties in Denver and Colorado Springs, but I've also been lucky enough with my life circumstances to get the privilege to work my butt off for them. Not everyone is so lucky. And I'm fine paying a few hundred dollars every four years and taking a few hours out of my day every four years to let an inspector in my rental if it means more people will have some better living conditions.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Again, you seem to support my position.

We don't need to inspect 100% of the rentals when the vast majority are compliant. Government's role is to weed out the bad actors. You don't weed out criminals by treating everyone like criminals.

There are a lot of cities with regulatory programs, but that doesn't prove success. Just like the war on drugs, poverty, and homelessness, these Landlord license programs are a dismal failure considering the amount of time and money spent. They could create a small office designed to collect reports, investigate, and enforce. Educate the public on how to report potential slumlords, collect the reports, investigate to find the bad actors, and then hammer them into compliance or shut them down. Meanwhile, the other 95% of Landlords and Property Managers could go about their business like the law-abiding citizens they are. I bet you'd see the same level of success and for 1/10th the cost.

@James Carlson how will your compliance improve the situation for anyone? It won't, because you're already compliant. You're spending time and money to the government to show you're a good guy even though the government has no evidence that you're not a good guy. You're assumed guilty until you pay Ceasar, just like our founders intended. Meanwhile, resources are spent documenting your continued compliance while having little impact on the bad actors or those they harm.

It's just my opinion. And, just like government regulation, there's never a shortage of opinions!

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Michael K GallagherBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Columbus OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner here in Columbus you do have to register your property as a rental...just with with the owners contact or rental contact info from what I remember. I don't believe there's a fee associated with it, and you don't need an inspection. Here it usually feels like the city or local government is always trying to "solve the housing crisis" or whatever, just for the news articles and political postering. They never actually come up with a solution to deal with the root of the issues, to your point it just inhibits the law abiding citizens from doing what they are already doing.

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Peter M.

Rental Property Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2013 · 953 posts · 910 votes

5y

@Nathan G. Even in landlord friendly Texas i have rentals in municipalities the require registration. The SFR didn't have an inspection but the MF do but it just depends on the city. The other thing that grinds my gears is when HOAs do it too. Same thing with STR and taxes. If you have the state, city, and HOA trying to get a piece, it could be 20% of gross rent. Its frustrating but I see it as cost of doing business and ultimately is passed onto the tenants/guests. I think its helping to drive the STR craze. Landlords are realizing they can get $100/night plus $100 cleaning fee and the guest will pay another $75 in taxes and fees. Its crazy to me that people will pay it but they do and the evidence is staring me in the face every time I look at our airbnb calendars.

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Joe SplitrockPro Member

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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner most single family rentals are owned by small mom and pop operators. Many of these people are operating properties without any education around fair housing, landlord/tenant laws or local codes. This creates a situation where uninformed people can run afoul of the law out of ignorance. The other situation is people who are aware of the law, but believe it only applies if you can get caught. Spending time on BP has shown me that a good chunk of the population views laws this way. If everyone followed the law, we wouldn't need to enforce them.

As @Russell Brazil said, inspections catch the bad actors. Those who are doing the right thing have nothing to worry about. I would even argue it is helpful to professional landlords and property managers. Inspections / enforcement will encourage compliance. Some people only do the right thing if they think someone is watching.

My city has licensing requirement, but there is no fee to register your property and no inspections. Even with no cost and no inspection, half the single family homes in my city are not registered! That just confirms my original point.

Here is the stated benefit of registering a rental property in my city:

1. Landlords get notices of free housing education classes.

2. You register contact information for the owner and property manager. This allows the city or neighbors to have your contact information if there is a problem.

3. Permit can be revoked if 4 code violations occur over a 4 year period.

4. Anyone with open code violations cannot register new properties.

Code violations only occur if someone reports you, which is most likely the tenant or a neighbor. I agree there could be a burden with inspections and fees. It has to be a balance.

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James CarlsonBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner

I get it. The program is not the most efficient and may make otherwise good landlords have to jump through hoops. Valid complaints.

But these criticisms suppose that efficiency is the main goal. It's not. If there's a system that can somehow catch only the bad actors, I'm open to listening. But the way I see it, systems are messy, helping people is messy, and I'm okay doing my part even if it's not perfect.

That's really where I fall on the question of government's role. The world is not always fair. We register our cars in part to help connect cars involved in crimes to the criminals. Other than speeding (a lot), I don't commit crimes in my car, yet I pay registration fees. I don't have kids, yet I pay property taxes that fund schools. I don't use I-90 in Wyoming, yet I pay federal taxes that help maintain it.

I certainly hear the critiques of this program. They're valid. But for me, I'm willing to accept the inefficiencies and the small disruptions to my life because I think when weighing whether this program helps or hurts more, I think it helps more.

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Steve W.

USA · Member since 2014 · 119 posts · 102 votes

5y

"If you're doing the right thing then you have nothing to worry about" is a terrifying phrase.

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Cathy Malmrose

Rental Property Investor · Lapeer, MI · Member since 2019 · 57 posts · 118 votes

5y

@Nathan G. I'm 100% pro rental inspections. Besides helping keep the quality of housing up, the inspections chase out the landlords who don't want to take good care of their properties -- the inspections are something a landlord should pay to do anyway but it's hard to justify the cost when it's not required. I consider myself a high quality landlord and I don't know if I would do it if it wasn't required. In my case, there's nothing you could say that would make me not be pro-inspection -- they literally saved my daughter's life. Inspections in my town involve both a general inspection and an HVAC inspection by an HVAC company . My daughter was living in one of the rental homes, helping me flip it. She had been complaining of headaches and fatigue. I thought she was trying to get out of work. She was getting carbon monoxide poisoning every night and I'm (expletive deleted) lucky she didn't die. She was 18 years old at the time, being exposed to 10x the legal limit dealing with a mom complaining about her keeping the windows open at night... even if an inspection only catches 1 out of 1,000 and even if it's not you're own blood, in this line of work you do have to value a life. Or not.

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Cathy Malmrose

Rental Property Investor · Lapeer, MI · Member since 2019 · 57 posts · 118 votes

5y

@Steve W.

So true. You can be doing everything right and still have equipment malfunction. The unit the malfunctioned for me was only 3 years old. Our inspections are yearly. I support inspections. The whole "power grab" and "they want more money" is too conspiracy theorist / poor me. Budget for it. Take good care of your tenants & your properties. Support the city you're choosing to invest in and if you don't like that city, there are plenty of others. Flint, Michigan is still waiving inspections. Maybe try there if Colorado has raised their standards too high for you.

But seriously every 4 years? And you're put out by that? *mind blown*

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Joe SplitrockPro Member

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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Steve W.:

"If you're doing the right thing then you have nothing to worry about" is a terrifying phrase.

We are talking about rental properties, not government surveillance of your smart phone or some other privacy intrusion. Restaurants are subject to city health inspectors. Is terrifying to think the place you eat your meals has been inspected to ensure safe food handling? It is a business and when you operate a business with customers, you open yourself to regulation.

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Kelly Pierce

Realtor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 21 votes

5y

I have to register both of mine in CA but only on required an inspection but not annually.

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Matt M.

Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

@Nathan G.

I own in 2 different boroughs. They both have rental registrations at $50/year. The one only required a c.o. , the other is supposed to do a yearly inspection but it’s been nearly 6..

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Sheri FluellenBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2020 · 122 posts · 64 votes

5y

I live in a town and state that does nothing of the sort regarding inspections. That would significantly prove to be a barrier to some investment owners!! We have only had inspections on our Section 8 housing apartments, and that is something we have elected to participate in.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member

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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Again, you seem to support my position.

We don't need to inspect 100% of the rentals when the vast majority are compliant. Government's role is to weed out the bad actors. You don't weed out criminals by treating everyone like criminals.

There are a lot of cities with regulatory programs, but that doesn't prove success. Just like the war on drugs, poverty, and homelessness, these Landlord license programs are a dismal failure considering the amount of time and money spent. They could create a small office designed to collect reports, investigate, and enforce. Educate the public on how to report potential slumlords, collect the reports, investigate to find the bad actors, and then hammer them into compliance or shut them down. Meanwhile, the other 95% of Landlords and Property Managers could go about their business like the law-abiding citizens they are. I bet you'd see the same level of success and for 1/10th the cost.

@James Carlson how will your compliance improve the situation for anyone? It won't, because you're already compliant. You're spending time and money to the government to show you're a good guy even though the government has no evidence that you're not a good guy. You're assumed guilty until you pay Ceasar, just like our founders intended. Meanwhile, resources are spent documenting your continued compliance while having little impact on the bad actors or those they harm.

It's just my opinion. And, just like government regulation, there's never a shortage of opinions!

Should we stop enforcing drunk driving laws too because most drivers are compliant?

Maybe stop inspecting nuclear power plants too because most are up to code?

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Julie Hartman

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 667 posts · 587 votes

5y

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help." (R.R).

Sorry but like every mandate the government slaps together, it becomes a slippery slope to more and more regulation and control. Meanwhile, we can't evict deadbeat tenants.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

Should we stop enforcing drunk driving laws too because most drivers are compliant?

Maybe stop inspecting nuclear power plants too because most are up to code?

I'm not recommending we stop enforcing existing laws. I'm saying there's no legal, moral, or sensible reason for creating new ones. You don't stop every driver on the road and administer a breathalyzer just because 2% of the drivers may be drunk at any given time.

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Does your City require Landlords to register rentals?

Does your City require Landlords to register rentals?

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