STR in Snowshoe Mountain WV

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STR in Snowshoe Mountain WV

Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 0 votes

I am new here and looking to start becoming a real estate investor. I started at looking condos in Snowshoe, WV and was wondering if anyone would share their experience. There are few options many of them very cheap ( 20K-50K) for a studio or one bedroom. I went and saw a few also looked at some "cash flow" sheets from the realtor most of them are about breaking even with the snowshoe rental program. Other who are doing VRBO or other private management company seem to be brining modest cash flow ( about $5000 on a 50K condo, or so after taxes/condo fees/utilities ..no repairs)...I was thinking of buying a cheap one (20K-40K) cash anyway since looking at zillow it looks like they are at the bottom price they have ever been and worest case scenario I break even and hopefully not lose much equity...what do you think?

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James Fisher

Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 17 votes

The Aspen group recently purchased Snowshoe and are making some great improvements.

HOWEVER - there is a reason the condos are priced so low. Many owners that bought property there as an investment are willing to take a large loss just to get out from underneath it.

HOAs fees are out of this world. Special assessments almost a yearly thing and are usually several thousand dollars at a minimum. Outside of the Snowshoe rental program - good luck finding anyone to do maintenance or clean after guests leave. If you utilize the Snowshoe rental program you have no ability to screen guests - I've had owners tell me that they've had to replace every stick of furniture in their property after a poorly screened group destroyed everything. Also, there are some weird cancellation/rescheduling rules with the Snowshoe program.

Personally, I think the only way that Snowshoe works as a rental is if you are an owner that plans on using the property all ski season except big holidays (Christmas, NYE, MLK, and President's Day). Rent the property out yourself on the big holidays (not using the Snowshoe rental program) and make sure you visit the property enough to catch any needed maintenance.

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Sean Wilt
Investor · Savannah, GA · Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 29 votes
7y
@EZ Hassan
Check out the site Airdna.co. they have a product called MarketMinder that you can subscribe to on a monthly basisi. I bet Snowshoe WV would be $39.99 at most but probably more like $19.99 ---- well worth the investment. On there you can see top properties with links to their actual listings, historical 3 year rental, pricing, and occupancy history, etc. It's really a great site.
If you did go for it, be sure to market it for 4 seasons. As I understand, Horshoe is good for winter sports but also for mountian biking trips in the summer. I have a buddy in rural mountain Colorado that does very well to groups that want to come out to hike and bike in the warmer months.
At $40k-$50k with no mortgage, it seems tough that you could not do fairly well and if you enjoy going there personally, than all the better!
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EZ Hassan
OP
Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 0 votes
7y
Awesome thanks for the pointers :)
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Julie McCoy
Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Sean Wilt has good advice but take AirDNA's numbers with a grain of salt - they're generally on the very high end because of the way they collect their data (and the fact that they're mining AirBNB's data, they aren't integrated with AirBNB, so they can't process the data as accurately as they could with full access).
Definitely do some research just on AirBNB and VRBO - find properties similar to what you're looking at, and find out what their rates are, how booked their calendars are, what the top-reviewed properties are doing that their competitors aren't.
Take the realtor's "cash flow" sheet with a grain of salt too, you can take it as a starting point but definitely crunch your own numbers. Find out exactly what the rental program charges (if you're going with them), condo HOAs, if they have restrictions on STRs, etc. etc.
I haven't been to Snowshoe since I was a kid but had a good time there. :) Good luck!
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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y
Factor in the annual resort tax to Alterra. Also I imagine older complexes such as Mointain Lodge are struggling to maintain value.
Best mountain in the southeast ... $4mm in new snowmaking equipment this year and it's already open with 40"+ of snow and new trails opening daily.
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EZ Hassan
OP
Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 0 votes
7y
Yes mountain lodge is older but for some reason it is easier to rent (outside of snowshoe program) in terms of logistics (maintanance, housekeeping). Other complexes make more sense in terms of value but I do not see many rented outside of snowshoe (except for few) mountain lodge has an assesment coming up making HOA more by 400 a month for 3 years and 150 for 10.. may make ot unattractive on the market once those fees are assessed ( although would look nicer)
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James Fisher
Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 17 votes
7y
The Aspen group recently purchased Snowshoe and are making some great improvements.
HOWEVER - there is a reason the condos are priced so low. Many owners that bought property there as an investment are willing to take a large loss just to get out from underneath it.
HOAs fees are out of this world. Special assessments almost a yearly thing and are usually several thousand dollars at a minimum. Outside of the Snowshoe rental program - good luck finding anyone to do maintenance or clean after guests leave. If you utilize the Snowshoe rental program you have no ability to screen guests - I've had owners tell me that they've had to replace every stick of furniture in their property after a poorly screened group destroyed everything. Also, there are some weird cancellation/rescheduling rules with the Snowshoe program.
Personally, I think the only way that Snowshoe works as a rental is if you are an owner that plans on using the property all ski season except big holidays (Christmas, NYE, MLK, and President's Day). Rent the property out yourself on the big holidays (not using the Snowshoe rental program) and make sure you visit the property enough to catch any needed maintenance.
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EZ Hassan
OP
Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 0 votes
7y
Yes that is all making me seriously reconsider. I did look on airdna, looks all the top performing are in ML. Mainly, because they have their own housekeeping/maintanance staff so if you want to rent it out yourself , you basically do that dealing only with ML. But I agree the fees are high and tough to find a property that is positive (after all costs) except for ML either DIY or through a private management company ( basically a ML owner created it execlusively for ML units)...how about appreciation, I was hoping with it becoming more popular (improvements, etc) that there is no direction for price to go further down...
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James Fisher
Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 17 votes
7y
I can't say that looked into appreciation on the properties at Snowshoe, but my thought is that if these lodges are 20+ years old and units are selling for the same $ or less than when they were new....appreciation probably isn't something that should be considered.
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Jed Spencer
Woodbine, MD · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 1 vote
7y
I've been going through the analysis on Snowshoe recently. As purely investment, it doesn't make as much sense to me as other areas that own (primarily North central MD and South central PA), but.....we ski a lot and would use a ski place 4-5 weekends in the winter (we're about 4 hrs away). I agree with what some of the others above have said re the fees at Snowshoe--the SS mgmt fees are 25%, cleaning 15%, HOA, "mountain tax", etc. it makes it almost impossible to even break even at one of the condo complexes. Because of that we've been leaning toward one of the SFHs up there and trying something like Evolve vacation rentals to set up cleaning, renting, etc. With that setup my rough numbers are for a purchase and rehab of 300-350k I can probably clear 5-10k/yr after costs and debt.
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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y
@Jed Spencer Good call. The backside of the mountain is quiet with beautiful views and just a quick drive or shuttle to the village.
FYI if they see your home posted for rent on VRBO or similar they will charge at a different tax class which is roughly double that of the owner/residential rate.
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Mark Lee
Member since 2019 · 29 posts · 15 votes
6y
@EZ Hassan
Did you ever aquire a property in Snowshoe, WV and if so, has it worked out for you?
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EZ Hassan
OP
Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 0 votes
6y
nope. after much research I decided not to
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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
I just purchased one from one of my real estate partners. He has several and in general he gets decent cashflow. I'm just getting into it but I will just follow his model which seems to be working.
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Mark Lee
Member since 2019 · 29 posts · 15 votes
6y
@Mark Cruse
Mark, thanks for posting. Would you be will to share some numbers on your purchase? investment amount, costs, occupancy, rate of return, cash flow?
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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
Sure. I acquired the a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo for 85k. In general, with principle, fees and all things involved the monthly note is in the mid $800 range. During the summer season it may break even or have low profit. During the spring and fall there is little to nothing coming it. During the winter season it cleans up and provides yearly profit. Actually my partner is still running everything up until the winter season starts while he is teaching me the management and marketing systems. The great part here is he let me have one that is already built up with a great reputation and steady repeat clients.
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Mark Lee
Member since 2019 · 29 posts · 15 votes
6y
@Mark Cruse - congrats. Sounds like an established cash flowing rental. Thanks for the information and I hope you do well in the upcoming season.
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Alex Forest
Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
6y
@EZ Hassan I was up at Snowshoe this weekend (hence searched for and found this thread thats a bit dormant). It was really a good time and a beautiful place. We visited and researched a few condos on the mountain and the comments above resonate. Putting the investor hat on, there was no place I saw that made sense on a return basis, if managed by a PM. By the time you factor in management and cleaning (40%), HOA 400 to 600 or more, seasonality, there was barely anything left for a mortgage payment, nevermind any repairs or potential special assessment.

I came away thinking a couple of the condos can make sense as a second vacation home, with the rental part offsetting the expenses to make it more affordable to go to a place you enjoy being. Especially visiting in the summer or off season when it wouldnt have a high occupancy or a high nightly rate...and it would also make more sense if one planned to spend a decent amount of time there themselves as well.
Unless one was willing to take a more active role with the management (Vrbo, etc) and maybe even cleaning if lived nearby. Otherwise, it may make sense to rent instead of buying if just visiting once a year and purely for investment purposes. these observations, might change, I've just started looking a week ago, and there are a lot of places up there.

Fun fact, HOA fees at Allegheny for a 2 bdm are $1200/more per the Realtor.
@Tom Gimer Not sure if you have been there in a bit, but they are renovating the siding, windows and decks at Mountain Lodge.

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Alex Forest
Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
6y
Originally posted by @James Fisher:
The Aspen group recently purchased Snowshoe and are making some great improvements.
HOWEVER - there is a reason the condos are priced so low. Many owners that bought property there as an investment are willing to take a large loss just to get out from underneath it.
HOAs fees are out of this world. Special assessments almost a yearly thing and are usually several thousand dollars at a minimum. Outside of the Snowshoe rental program - good luck finding anyone to do maintenance or clean after guests leave. If you utilize the Snowshoe rental program you have no ability to screen guests - I've had owners tell me that they've had to replace every stick of furniture in their property after a poorly screened group destroyed everything. Also, there are some weird cancellation/rescheduling rules with the Snowshoe program.
Personally, I think the only way that Snowshoe works as a rental is if you are an owner that plans on using the property all ski season except big holidays (Christmas, NYE, MLK, and President's Day). Rent the property out yourself on the big holidays (not using the Snowshoe rental program) and make sure you visit the property enough to catch any needed maintenance.

Is the reason owners are looking "to get out from underneath it" because of the recurring fees mentioned, HOA, special assessment,etc.. ? I could picture a scenario where the expenses could feel like they are bleeding one dry a bit and just want to offload. I was surprised to hear one special assessment fee for siding a new windows was $24k per owner last year. That is a large unexpected one time cost. I don't have a sense of how much visibility there is into when these might occur and how often those are charged. Or if they are assessed on an as needed basis for repairs and capital improvements.

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Alex Forest
Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
6y

@James Fisher
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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
My experience has been good and the guy running mine really knows what he is doing. He has 20 of them, manages them himself along with mine and there is decent return. This season we thought may be a bust but he's way ahead. I guess it depends on how it's ran and the numbers you buy at. He has multiple approaches in relation to marketing. If you just want to buy and not be involved much I can see it now working well.
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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Alex Forest what was the price of the units you were looking at?
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Alex Forest
Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
6y
@Mark Cruse That's good to hear. Yeah, if its self managed, I could see it being more feasible. How do you handle the cleaning aspect during turnover without a PM? Have you found a good local firm to work with? Mountain Lodge does it in house and charges which makes it seem easier for a self managed. It was my impression that other buildings did not do it in house, so without a PM, that would seem important to have a reliable cleaning firm. I haven't done enough research to have a handle on if that would be easy or difficult to find. Someone above noted difficult.

Mountain Lodge seemed to offer the potential for some decent net operating income for a one bedroom that I saw, even with a PM, and with approximately $23k in gross rents. Without a PM, it would be even better possibly if theres a good marketing approach or regular client base. A couple other buildings I looked at were only pulling in $10k to $12k in gross rent, and after the PM, cleaning, and HOA, there was not much left (or were already negative) to cover P&I, repairs, or soft occupancy.

Sounds like you found a good area. I'd be curious how you're handling the cleaning and if it's a good private firm. I was looking in the $58k to $90k for 1 Bdm and $90k to $140k for 2bdm, 2.5ba range. The sales price didnt come into play too much in the analysis though, as ratea are low and those other factors mentioned above are a larger portion of the expenses.

I would like to find a way to make it work, as we enjoyed staying up there quite a bit and would like to do more of it! If I can get the finances to work, it would make it a much easier decision.

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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Alex Forest my condo is in Mountain Lodge and they handle check in and cleaning for a fee. The guy I have managing mine has many so he knows how to market and keep a repeat customer base. He always makes profit and bookings are way up in comparison to past years. You always have to take the purchase price into account. You have to understand the numbers. I got a 2 bedroom for 85k. very well maintained with a steady stream of rents. Because it's a 2 bedroom i get decent rent and because my mortgage is in the 60k range it affords me room for profit.
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Alex Forest
Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
6y
@Mark Cruse Yup, I could see that at ML, especially if self managed. Nice. We stayed there this past weekend. It's a neat place! The new siding, windows, and decks that are going in now will be very nice improvements. What I meant by not needing to factor in price, was that other condo building units (not ML) I looked at didnt generate enough net operating income (ie $2k or break even annually), so I didn't need to factor in price (mortgage) to know there would be no return and negative casflow. Those units were not at mountain lodge though, which does seem to rent well.
That is interesting interesting that you're seeing bookings are way up. Do you have a sense of how that compares to 2019? Do you mean for this summer or future bookings further out in the winter? Hotels nationally are still down a lot, I wonder if it is because snowshoe is an outdoor wide open space, that makes folks feel comfortable and drives them there (during the pandemic).
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Mark Cruse
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Alex Forest ok I get the part about not looking at price. In terms of seeing bookings up, yes it's comparison to 2019. We thought it would be way down. Not sure of the reason but we have multiple theories. Maybe people are tired of being quarantined and they are just ready to do stuff like that. Also, COVID was not wide spread on the mountain that I know of. Also, he has changed multiple marketing approaches to go at the repeat clients. Who knows, but that's what's going on with his right now.
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